Why do people call Edmure Tully stupid?

[Kolantero]

Edmure isn't stupid he is just average (that is "normal" like the majority of people) when it comes to his intelligence. The main argument i have seen against him is that he "disobeyed orders and caused Robb's plan to go bad by attacking Tywin" which is an argument that imo doesn't have any justification.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Edmure isn't stupid he is just average (that is "normal" like the majority of people) when it comes to his intelligence. The main argument i have seen against him is that he "disobeyed orders and caused Robb's plan to go bad by attacking Tywin" which is an argument that imo doesn't have any justification.

Really? At this point of the story where Tully's have been kicked out of Riverrun, Cat, Robb and hundreds of other Northmen are dead, the River Lords losing their lands to Lannister banner-men and the Lannisters are still sitting on the Iron Throne, you don't think that disobeying orders isn't a justification?

[Myrish Swamp Thing]

Really? At this point of the story where Tully's have been kicked out of Riverrun, Cat, Robb and hundreds of other Northmen are dead, the River Lords losing their lands to Lannister banner-men and the Lannisters are still sitting on the Iron Throne, you don't think that disobeying orders isn't a justification?

His orders were "hold Riverrun", and he held it. Robb and the Blackfish relied on him reading their minds for the encirclement plan.

[Kolantero]

Really? At this point of the story where Tully's have been kicked out of Riverrun, Cat, Robb and hundreds of other Northmen are dead, the River Lords losing their lands to Lannister banner-men and the Lannisters are still sitting on the Iron Throne, you don't think that disobeying orders isn't a justification?

Unless the orders were given explicitly in the style of "Hold the fort and under no circumstances do not make any attacking maneuvers" or something similar then he didn't disobeyed any orders.

He was the highest commanding officer in the field and he had no line of communication with his superiors. His actions did not harm his objective (hold Riverun), they probably helped him achieve it. He saw an opportunity and he successfully took it, his tactics worked and what he did was absolutely rational since he didn't know the whole plan. Which is a thing I blame on Robb/Blackfish since i don't see any reason for not telling him the plan.

If they wanted him to stay specifically and exclusively on the defensive they should have given explicit orders or tell him the whole plan.

[David Selig]

One of the tried and never failing laws of this board - any thread about Edmure always immediately turns into "Whose fault it was Robb's trap for Tywin's army didn't work" and any possible discussion about Edmure's personality and character barely gets any attention. Sad but true.

[Arkantos]

That's why I can't see Edmure having any blame. He's so far down the list. He fucked up and could have prevented the Red Wedding if he hadn't, but there's a difference between not preventing something you don't know is about to occur and actively causing something.

It depends on whether you see his removal of the northerners as vital to the Freys having the free reign to plot or carry out the assault. Having 300 northerners inside the castle could've thrown a spanner in the works, if they said "Why don't you guys go and join the feast whilst we stay here?" or they noticed the Freys kitting up, suspicions might be raised, frequent secret meetings might've been noted, ravens being sent off etc.

It's also certain that Edmure could have prevented it had he not fought the battle of the fords, against the orders of his superiors, so you could blame him for it being carried out to some degree.

But I never said that anyway, I said he played a big part in allowing it to come about, not that he caused it.

One of the tried and never failing laws of this board - any thread about Edmure always immediately turns into "Whose fault it was Robb's trap for Tywin's army didn't work" and any possible discussion about Edmure's personality and character barely gets any attention. Sad but true.

That's life... In other boards, Godwin's law applies. On these boards, personality threads turn into arguments about feats.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

It depends on whether you see his removal of the northerners as vital to the Freys having the free reign to plot or carry out the assault. Having 300 northerners inside the castle could've thrown a spanner in the works, if they said "Why don't you guys go and join the feast whilst we stay here?" or they noticed the Freys kitting up, suspicions might be raised, frequent secret meetings might've been noted, ravens being sent off etc.

It's also certain that Edmure could have prevented it had he not fought the battle of the fords, against the orders of his superiors, so you could blame him for it being carried out to some degree.

But I never said that anyway, I said he played a big part in allowing it to come about, not that he caused it.

Like I said, I don't remember the pulling out the troops situation, so I can't comment on it.

I understand people who say he missed his chance to prevent it. He did. And he did fuck up there (how much is up to debate).

My problem is the word blame. That suggests, to me, that he is somehow equal to the level of those (and it is a long list) whose actions had a direct cause of it rather his actions didn't prevent it.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Unless the orders were given explicitly in the style of "Hold the fort and under no circumstances do not make any attacking maneuvers" or something similar then he didn't disobeyed any orders.

He was the highest commanding officer in the field and he had no line of communication with his superiors. His actions did not harm his objective (hold Riverun), they probably helped him achieve it. He saw an opportunity and he successfully took it, his tactics worked and what he did was absolutely rational since he didn't know the whole plan. Which is a thing I blame on Robb/Blackfish since i don't see any reason for not telling him the plan.

If they wanted him to stay specifically and exclusively on the defensive they should have given explicit orders or tell him the whole plan.

The Blackfish STAYED at Riverrun holding it until he didn't have a choice. He STAYED. Edmure LEFT. When I tell my dog to stay, I mean stay and not follow move and he does. It's really an easy word to understand, unless of course, you have an agenda of your own as Edmure did.

[David Selig]

Blackfish's situation was completely different. He had a few hundred men, He had zero chance in any battle outside of the Riverrun castle.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

Edmure wanted so much to be the Lord of Riverrun, and now he's trapped, when his baby is born (if the baby is a boy of course), Lord Walder Frey will order his execution

he's not stupid, it's not his fault about the Red Wedding, he didn't want to marry a Frey, he was obliged to do so, to make peace beteween Robb and Lord Walder

poor Edmure

[Kolantero]

The Blackfish STAYED at Riverrun holding it until he didn't have a choice. He STAYED. Edmure LEFT. When I tell my dog to stay, I mean stay and not follow move and he does. It's really an easy word to understand, unless of course, you have an agenda of your own as Edmure did.

The Blackfish said, “You were commanded to hold Riverrun, Edmure, no more.”

“I held Riverrun, and I bloodied Lord Tywin’s nose.”

“So you did,” said Robb

and

“I told you to hold Riverrun,” said Robb.

He was told to hold Riverrun. He did, even Robb says so. It is clear from the phrasing that the orders weren't explicit about not trying any offensive attacks in his effort to hold Riverrun. Just because he went on the offensive for a bit does not mean that he abandoned Riverrun's defense.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

The Red Wedding was a treacherous thing, but Robb is the person to blame, he disrespect the marriage pact that his mother did with Lord Walder to let his troops cross the Green Fork

Edmure is not guilty of anything, he didn't do anything stupid, for the contrarym he fought Lord Tywin's troops and held Riverrun, and he married a girl trying to fix Robb's stupid decision in marrying Jeyne Westerling

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

His orders were "hold Riverrun", and he held it. Robb and the Blackfish relied on him reading their minds for the encirclement plan.

No he did not hold Riverrun. When Stannis "held" Storms End he stayed his ass inside. He stayed inside, starved, ate rats and did not LEAVE until reinforcements arrived. The Blackfish "held" Riverrun until he had no choice. The Riverlands and Riverrun are two separate places and Robb explicitly said "Hold Riverrun", not hold the Riverlands. So for all of his heroic efforts to beat Tywin back he, his pregnant wife and unborn child are all hostages.

[David Selig]

No he did not hold Riverrun. When Stannis "held" Storms End he stayed his ass inside. He stayed inside, starved, ate rats and did not LEAVE until reinforcements arrived.

You make it sound as if Stannis had a choice. He didn't. He couldn't leave since he was besieged and breaking the siege without reinforcements was never an option since the enemies had like 10 times bigger army and a fleet cutting off the ocean.

[Blackfish Tully]

He was told to hold Riverrun. He did, even Robb says so. It is clear from the phrasing that the orders weren't explicit about not trying any offensive attacks in his effort to hold Riverrun. Just because he went on the offensive for a bit does not mean that he abandoned Riverrun's defense.

When Tywin was trying to cross the river he was actually LEAVING the Riverlands. Edmure's actions actually kept the Lannister forces trapped in the Riverlands. The best way for Edmure to protect Riverrun would be to let the Lannisters cross the river and then leave a force there to keep the Lannisters from crossing back.

[danm_999]

No he did not hold Riverrun. When Stannis "held" Storms End he stayed his ass inside. He stayed inside, starved, ate rats and did not LEAVE until reinforcements arrived. The Blackfish "held" Riverrun until he had no choice. The Riverlands and Riverrun are two separate places and Robb explicitly said "Hold Riverrun", not hold the Riverlands. So for all of his heroic efforts to beat Tywin back he, his pregnant wife and unborn child are all hostages.

There's some very important contextual issues you're missing here though.

Storm's End's defence is predicated on it's rather massive walls, hence bunkering up behind them is the optimal strategy for defence, especially when the force opposing you is massive in comparison.

Riverrun's defence is predicated on it's rivers. Here's Kevan Lannister in AGoT;

You have never seen Riverrun, Ser Harys, or you would know that Jaime had little choice in the matter. The castle is situated at the end of the point of land where the Tumblestone flows into the Red Fork of the Trident. The rivers form two sides of a triangle, and when danger threatens, the Tullys open their sluice gates upstream to create a wide moat on the third side, turning Riverrun into an island. The walls rise sheer from the water, and from their towers the defenders have a commanding view of the opposite shores for many leagues around. To cut off all the approaches, a besieger must needs place one camp north of the Tumblestone, one south of the Red Fork, and a third between the rivers, west of the moat. There is no other way, none.”

The rivers round Riverrun are as much a part of it's defence as the walls are around Storm's End.

Now, what's important here is that Tywin was attempting to ford the Red Fork at Stone Mills, near Riverrun, at which point he would have been able to cross into the Westerlands (which Robb hoped, but we don't actually know this was ever his intent) or begin the siege of Riverrun anew (a possibility Robb apparently hadn't considered).

So according to Edmure's brief from Robb, "hold Riverrun", stopping Tywin fording the Red Fork makes sense. It adheres to the spirit of the order that Robb gave Edmure, just not the intent (an intent that wasn't communicated effectively). Robb's retort to Edmure was that the plan was on a need to know basis, but pretty clearly Edmure needed to know.

I also suspect it's not actually a plan that existed before Robb left for the Westerlands, since it's contigent on several things happening that Robb couldn't have predicted (Oxcross, Grey Wind finding the path around the Golden Tooth, Jeyne Westerling, Tywin's movements in the Riverlands, etc.).

What honestly appears to have happened is that Robb was frustrated at that meeting (things were not going well; the Freys had left him, the Karstarks had left him, the Lannisters had won the battle at King's Landing) and he took it out on his uncle.

[Blackfish Tully]

I have a feeling that Edmure is being set-up for a big return in the last couple of books . The bad things that have happened to him and his imprisonment by the Lannisters will toughen him up and we may see him become a major player in the Game of Thrones

[Blackfish Tully]

Now, what's important here is that Tywin was attempting to ford the Red Fork at Stone Mills, near Riverrun, at which point he would have been able to cross into the Westerlands (which Robb hoped, but we don't actually know this was ever his intent) or begin the siege of Riverrun anew (a possibility Robb apparently hadn't considered).

The is the first time I have read somebody say that Tywin was looking to lay siege to Riverrun. Probably because the idea is completely crazy.

With Robb laying waste to the Westerlands and Stannis attacking Kings Landing the last thing that Tywin would even think of doing would be to lay siege to Riverrun. It would similar to Stannis trying to take the Dreadfort . He does not have the forces to take it and he would be taking the chance of being trapped between the walls of Riverrun and Robb Stark's army. Nothing in the books supports this idea.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

There's some very important contextual issues you're missing here though.

Storm's End's defence is predicated on it's rather massive walls, hence bunkering up behind them is the optimal strategy for defence, especially when the force opposing you is massive in comparison.

Riverrun's defence is predicated on it's rivers. Here's Kevan Lannister in AGoT;

The rivers round Riverrun are as much a part of it's defence as the walls are around Storm's End.

Now, what's important here is that Tywin was attempting to ford the Red Fork at Stone Mills, near Riverrun, at which point he would have been able to cross into the Westerlands (which Robb hoped, but we don't actually know this was ever his intent) or begin the siege of Riverrun anew (a possibility Robb apparently hadn't considered).

So according to Edmure's brief from Robb, "hold Riverrun", stopping Tywin fording the Red Fork makes sense. It adheres to the spirit of the order that Robb gave Edmure, just not the intent (an intent that wasn't communicated effectively). Robb's retort to Edmure was that the plan was on a need to know basis, but pretty clearly Edmure needed to know.

I also suspect it's not actually a plan that existed before Robb left for the Westerlands, since it's contigent on several things happening that Robb couldn't have predicted (Oxcross, Grey Wind finding the path around the Golden Tooth, Jeyne Westerling, Tywin's movements in the Riverlands, etc.).

What honestly appears to have happened is that Robb was frustrated at that meeting (things were not going well; the Freys had left him, the Karstarks had left him, the Lannisters had won the battle at King's Landing) and he took it out on his uncle.

No, he was trying to cross the Red Fork to get Robb troops, Robb was attacking the Westerlands, so Tywin was moving his troops from Harrenhal to the Westerlands

[danm_999]

The is the first time I have read somebody say that Tywin was looking to lay siege to Riverrun. Probably because the idea is completely crazy.

With Robb laying waste to the Westerlands and Stannis attacking Kings Landing the last thing that Tywin would even think of doing would be to lay siege to Riverrun. It would similar to Stannis trying to take the Dreadfort . He does not have the forces to take it and he would be taking the chance of being trapped between the walls of Riverrun and Robb Stark's army. Nothing in the books supports this idea.

Why is it crazy? Tywin might have sought to draw Robb out of the West by besieging Riverrun.

And does not have the forces to take it? In AGoT, Jaime is sent with 15,000 men to besiege Riverrun. Tywin has 20,000 in ACoK.