thelittledragonthatcould Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 "We must win back the Freys," said Robb. "With them, we still have some chance of success, however small. Without them, I see no hope. I am willing to give Lord Walder whatever he requires . . . apologies, honors, lands, gold . . . there must be something that would soothe his pride . . . " You can just see Robbs inner thoughts here, "c'mon I've mentioned everything else someone else suggest Edmure marriage..." "I mean," said the Blackfish, "that you owe His Grace your thanks for his forbearance. He played out that mummer's farce in the Great Hall so as not to shame you before your own people. Had it been me I would have flayed you for your stupidity rather than praising this folly of the fords." Yeah, there is no pressure at all from the Blackfish or Robb. Cat thinks that her son has manipulated her into accepting his mistake, its likely that he and the Blackfish have done the same to Edmure. Only then came her belated remembrance. Follies done for love? He has bagged me neat as a hare in a snare. I seem to have already forgiven him. Mixed with her annoyance was a rueful admiration; the scene had been staged with the cunning worthy of a master mummer . . . or a king. I mean, look at the wording the Blackfish uses. "When you stopped Lord Tywin on the Red Fork," said the Blackfish, "you delayed him just long enough for riders out of Bitterbridge to reach him with word of what was happening to the east. Lord Tywin turned his host at once, How can the Blackfish know this, does he have spies in the Lannister camp. Furthermore, if Edmure has been ordered to stop at the castle, then why cant messengers still reach Tywin after he's crossed. They are blaming Edmure for everything that could have gone wrong while thinking their plan would have had the best possible outcome. Its like they sent Edmure to the shop to buy a lottery ticket, he loses it, and now are blaming him for losing millions rather than one ticket. As great at planning as Robb and Brynden are they had no idea that the Tyrells could join the Lannisters, never crossed their minds, so how on earth Ed can be blamed for them, and it was their 60k afterall, beating Stannis is beyond me. If Edmure was a little more clued up, he would have asked what Robb expected to do to Tywin while he was injured at the Crag, or what part of the plan involved turning the 1k Freys against him, or how could he be so sure that they Tyrells would not march on Kings Landing without Tywin. There are reasons to call Edmure foolish, but they have little to do with Robb giving a vague thought with no timeline on how long he would be gone for and no explanation to what Edmure should do should circumstances change. Stay in Riverrun indefinitely is NOT A PLAN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 You can just see Robbs inner thoughts here, "c'mon I've mentioned everything else someone else suggest Edmure marriage..." Yeah, there is no pressure at all from the Blackfish or Robb. Cat thinks that her son has manipulated her into accepting his mistake, its likely that he and the Blackfish have done the same to Edmure. I mean, look at the wording the Blackfish uses. How can the Blackfish know this, does he have spies in the Lannister camp. Furthermore, if Edmure has been ordered to stop at the castle, then why cant messengers still reach Tywin after he's crossed. They are blaming Edmure for everything that could have gone wrong while thinking their plan would have had the best possible outcome. Its like they sent Edmure to the shop to buy a lottery ticket, he loses it, and now are blaming him for losing millions rather than one ticket. As great at planning as Robb and Brynden are they had no idea that the Tyrells could join the Lannisters, never crossed their minds, so how on earth Ed can be blamed for them, and it was their 60k afterall, beating Stannis is beyond me. If Edmure was a little more clued up, he would have asked what Robb expected to do to Tywin while he was injured at the Crag, or what part of the plan involved turning the 1k Freys against him, or how could he be so sure that they Tyrells would not march on Kings Landing without Tywin. There are reasons to call Edmure foolish, but they have little to do with Robb giving a vague thought with no timeline on how long he would be gone for and no explanation to what Edmure should do should circumstances change. Stay in Riverrun indefinitely is NOT A PLAN. If Robb was wounded at the Crag when the Battle of the Fords was taking place why didn't Edmure call him on it? Probably because the Crag took place weeks after the Fords and Robb was healthy and ready for Tywin. As for how Blackfish knew about the messenger reaching Tywin, they would have been receiving messages at the Crag that would have explained all that. The raven system acts a message delivery system but also as a news spreading device. Every castle in the land would have received messages detailing how the Tyrells and Lannisters joined up and destoyed Stannis thats how the Maesters all stay up on the news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 If Robb was wounded at the Crag when the Battle of the Fords was taking place why didn't Edmure call him on it? Probably because the Crag took place weeks after the Fords and Robb was healthy and ready for Tywin. As for how Blackfish knew about the messenger reaching Tywin, they would have been receiving messages at the Crag that would have explained all that. The raven system acts a message delivery system but also as a news spreading device. Every castle in the land would have received messages detailing how the Tyrells and Lannisters joined up and destoyed Stannis thats how the Maesters all stay up on the news.Because for some reason can't remember for anything, does that stop the text from proving that he was? It wasn't weeks, Edmure was returning from the fords when word got in Robb took the Crag.From who? Who on the Stark side would have saw Reach men contacting Tywin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Because for some reason can't remember for anything, does that stop the text from proving that he was? It wasn't weeks, Edmure was returning from the fords when word got in Robb took the Crag. From who? Who on the Stark side would have saw Reach men contacting Tywin? After the Battle of Blackwater the Maesters in Kings Landing would have described the events that happened (including the Tyrell men catching up to Tywin and getting him to join the Tyrells ) and sent letters out to all the other castles describing those events. Everything of significance that happens in the Seven Kingdoms gets written down by the Maesters and they send out the news to the other Maesters . That's pretty much one of their main jobs. There is no reason that the Lannisters or Tyrells would want it kept secret instead they would be wanting everybody to know what happened and how they destroyed Stannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 After the Battle of Blackwater the Maesters in Kings Landing would have described the events that happened (including the Tyrell men catching up to Tywin and getting him to join the Tyrells ) and sent letters out to all the other castles describing those events. Everything of significance that happens in the Seven Kingdoms gets written down by the Maesters and they send out the news to the other Maesters . That's pretty much one of their main jobs. There is no reason that the Lannisters or Tyrells would want it kept secret instead they would be wanting everybody to know what happened and how they destroyed Stannis.When have we seen any maester do this? Honestly when? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 It wasn't weeks, Edmure was returning from the fords when word got in Robb took the Crag. How long was Edmure at the Fords? He would have been worried about the Lannisters trying to cross again and would have wanted to keep his army together for as long as possible because once he let them go it would be difficult to get them all back together. He clearly had no idea where Tywin went to and would have been worried that Tywin leaving was a ploy to make him return to Riverrun and then Tywin would try to cross again. It makes sense that Edmure would stay at the Ford for several weeks to make sure that there was no chance that the Lannisters were coming back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 How long was Edmure at the Fords? He would have been worried about the Lannisters trying to cross again and would have wanted to keep his army together for as long as possible because once he let them go it would be difficult to get them all back together.He clearly had no idea where Tywin went to and would have been worried that Tywin leaving was a ploy to make him return to Riverrun and then Tywin would try to cross again. It makes sense that Edmure would stay at the Ford for several weeks to make sure that there was no chance that the Lannisters were coming back.Not that long, seeing how Robb started for the Crag before the fords began and took by the time he was done. Non one stays at a filled for a month after the enemy left. No, it doesn't, by the time Edmure actually returns, and Robb has been injured the BBWB took place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erkan12 Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Not people. His own uncle and sister. But if you are asking who wins between Edmure & Lysa, yeah Lysa wins the stupidity contest. Because, somehow, he was suppose to guess whether or not Robb wanted him not to guard his rear and let Tywin through while he was plundering the west with a small army. No, he wasn't suppose to call all the river lords for battle with Tywin. Which is why Robb went to westerlands because he couldn't use the same river lords in the first place....... Ah Edmure the dumb... :bang: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 If Robb was wounded at the Crag when the Battle of the Fords was taking place why didn't Edmure call him on it? Probably because the Crag took place weeks after the Fords and Robb was healthy and ready for Tywin. Not according to the books. It takes Robb one night to take the ruinous Crag. He is already riding to the Crag before the Battle of the Fords takes place. There is no evidence in the Books to suggest it takes place weeks after. As for how Blackfish knew about the messenger reaching Tywin, they would have been receiving messages at the Crag that would have explained all that. So why is this brand new information to the Edmure? You know how the Raven system works right, it was from settlement to settlement, Riverrun would have been informed as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 No, he wasn't suppose to call all the river lords for battle with Tywin. Which is why Robb went to westerlands because he couldn't use the same river lords in the first place....... Ah Edmure the dumb... :bang: Robb never said this. What does the second sentence mean? How could Robb not use them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Not according to the books. It takes Robb one night to take the ruinous Crag. He is already riding to the Crag before the Battle of the Fords takes place. There is no evidence in the Books to suggest it takes place weeks after. So why is this brand new information to the Edmure? You know how the Raven system works right, it was from settlement to settlement, Riverrun would have been informed as well. We do not have any idea how long it took Robb to get to the Crag. If Robb had taken the Crag and been injured when the Battle of the Fords was going on wouldn't Edmure have known that and wouldn't he have called Robb on it?Robb and the Blackfish would have to be pretty blatant liars if they are calling out Edmure about not letting Tywin pass when they knew damm well they were at the Crag and in no shape to fight. I'm sorry I just refuse to believe they are going to lie like that.You can say that their plan would not have worked and i will argue with you that it could have but to say that they had no plan and were laid up in the Crag while the Battle of the Fords was going on just defies believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 We do not have any idea how long it took Robb to get to the Crag. If Robb had taken the Crag and been injured when the Battle of the Fords was going on wouldn't Edmure have known that and wouldn't he have called Robb on it?Robb and the Blackfish would have to be pretty blatant liars if they are calling out Edmure about not letting Tywin pass when they knew damm well they were at the Crag and in no shape to fight. I'm sorry I just refuse to believe they are going to lie like that.You can say that their plan would not have worked and i will argue with you that it could have but to say that they had no plan and were laid up in the Crag while the Battle of the Fords was going on just defies believe.Edmure isn't quick on wit, a specially with his family, he didn't remember the order guard Robb's rear, but does that stop the scout from telling Cat from happening? Does Robb's march on the Crag still not happen before the fords even begin? No, this all happened, Edmure remembering isn't the hinder here. The idead it would take a month to reach the Crag is ridicules.Which they were. The book itself tells us the Crag was taken by the time the fords ended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 So why is this brand new information to the Edmure? You know how the Raven system works right, it was from settlement to settlement, Riverrun would have been informed as well. Edmure does not seem the type to pay too much attention to what is going on in wider world , that's probably why he was totally ignorant to the idea that keeping Tywin away from Kings Landing and Stannis would be a really good idea. I'm sure he knew that Stannis had been defeated but he probably did not care much for the details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Edmure does not seem the type to pay too much attention to what is going on in wider world , that's probably why he was totally ignorant to the idea that keeping Tywin away from Kings Landing and Stannis would be a really good idea. I'm sure he knew that Stannis had been defeated but he probably did not care much for the details.How can he be ignorant of it if Maesters as you say gets this news quick? He got word Stannis lost. How? Stannis wn't his king, Robb is, Stannis victory wasn't promised, the Tyrells had yet to declare and Tyrion could have held Stannis off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talleyrand Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Edmure does not seem the type to pay too much attention to what is going on in wider world , that's probably why he was totally ignorant to the idea that keeping Tywin away from Kings Landing and Stannis would be a really good idea. I'm sure he knew that Stannis had been defeated but he probably did not care much for the details. We do not have any idea how long it took Robb to get to the Crag. If Robb had taken the Crag and been injured when the Battle of the Fords was going on wouldn't Edmure have known that and wouldn't he have called Robb on it? You seem to be contradicting yourself with these two statements - somehow Edmure doesn't give a shit about the world around or things that don't directly involve him and yet at the same time remembers the percise details and timings of Robb's campaign and is meant to call Robb out. Also as to why he doesn't call Robb out - he's being given a surround sound bollocking and gets cut off when he attempts speak back (and you're saying you've never only remembered later on a piece of information you could have used in the argument) and the argument quickly moves past the plan and onto the North, barely giving Edmure a chance to argue about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 (and you're saying you've never only remembered later on a piece of information you could have used in the argument) and the argument quickly moves past the plan and onto the North, barely giving Edmure a chance to argue about it Edmure had his jerkstore moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erkan12 Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Robb never said this. What does the second sentence mean? How could Robb not use them? Alright, here is the part ; CoK Chapter 7 “At once, Your Grace.” The squire hurried off.“I’ll wager there were others who felt the same as Lord Karstark,” her brother Edmure declared. “How can we talk of peace while the Lannisters spread like a pestilence over my father’s domains, stealing his crops and slaughtering his people? I say again, we ought to be marching on Harrenhal.”“We lack the strength,” Robb said, though unhappily.Edmure persisted. “Do we grow stronger sitting here? Our host dwindles every day.”“And whose doing is that?” Catelyn snapped at her brother. It had been at Edmure’s insistence that Robb had given the river lords leave to depart after his crowning, each to defend his own lands. Ser Marq Piper and Lord Karyl Vance had been the first to go. Lord Jonos Bracken had followed, vowing to reclaim the burnt shell of his castle and bury his dead, and now Lord Jason Mallister had announced his intent to return to his seat at Seagard, still mercifully untouched by the fighting.“You cannot ask my river lords to remain idle while their fields are being pillaged and their people put to the sword,” Ser Edmure said, “but Lord Karstark is a northman. It would be an ill thing if he were to leave us.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 So what does this has to do with Robb simply not calling them back for the West or his own foot, or when did he tell Edmure not to call his men? Tht is wha your post stated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Also, #StopTheGingerHate.We're just so unloved :crying: :bawl: :crying: Why doesn't everyone love us gingers? :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Alright, here is the part ; CoK Chapter 7 How exactly is Edmure stupid for doing this? How can Robb want all the Riverlords and their hosts to remain at Riverrun while simultaneously expecting Edmure not to react when Tywin and his army come onto his land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.