Why do people call Edmure Tully stupid?

[danm_999]

No, he was trying to cross the Red Fork to get Robb troops, Robb was attacking the Westerlands, so Tywin was moving his troops from Harrenhal to the Westerlands

This is what is suspected, but we don't know it's necessarily the case. Tywin was obviously making his plan on the fly, given he abandoned the crossing to return to King's Landing half way through.

[Blackfish Tully]

Why is it crazy? Tywin might have sought to draw Robb out of the West by besieging Riverrun.

And does not have the forces to take it? In AGoT, Jaime is sent with 15,000 men to besiege Riverrun. Tywin has 20,000 in ACoK.

It's crazy because when you besiege a castle you are putting yourself in a vulnerable position . if Robb Stark caught him between his army and the walls of Riverrun Tywin would be in a lot of trouble.

And yes Jamie has 15,000 men to besiege the castle but he never tried to take the castle because storming one of the great castles of the Seven Kingdoms is almost impossible.Jamie was going to try to starve Riverrun out he would never would have stormed it and Tywin would not have the time nor the siege equipment to take the castle. .

[Axrendale]

It's crazy because when you besiege a castle you are putting yourself in a vulnerable position . if Robb Stark caught him between his army and the walls of Riverrun Tywin would be in a lot of trouble.

And yes Jamie has 15,000 men to besiege the castle but he never tried to take the castle because storming one of the great castles of the Seven Kingdoms is almost impossible.Jamie was going to try to starve Riverrun out he would never would have stormed it and Tywin would not have the time nor the siege equipment to take the castle. .

Jaime's army was busy building siege engines at the time when they were wiped out by Robb, so it seems that they didn't exactly agree with your assessment that Riverrun is impregnable.

In any case, you are missing the point of what danm_999 is saying, which is that Tywin might have been hoping to draw Robb back out of the Westerlands and face him in open battle. Robb's army only had 6,000 men in it, and was all horse - that was why his entire plan was dependant on drawing Tywin into an ambush. If the two forces had ever met openly in the field, it would have been a wipeout.

[danm_999]

It's crazy because when you besiege a castle you are putting yourself in a vulnerable position . if Robb Stark caught him between his army and the walls of Riverrun Tywin would be in a lot of trouble.

How much trouble? Robb has 6000 mounted troops in the Westerlands at Oxcross. After the battle, and once the Frey's have left him, he probably has considerably less than that. Now, his plan is for Tywin to come West, to loop around him, and to force Tywin to attack his mounted troops in a superior defensive position while they're trying to head back East.

But if Tywin besieges Riverrun, Robb has to leave the Westerlands (huge win for Tywin), and Robb has to forgo his defensive advantage (another win for Tywin) and Robb has to contend in the fords surrounding Riverrun with mounted troops against Tywin's superior numbered infantry. Edmure's garrisson is not enough to make up the windfall (given most lords have been granted leave to defend their own lands), so there's a very strong possibility Robb could lose this battle.

Or not. But it's something Tywin could do, and it's not something that Robb or Edmure know Tywin won't do. Consider Tywin may have resolved to go no farther West than Riverrun, knowing that while Robb has no hope of taking Casterly Rock, Stannis/the Tyrells are very well situated to take King's Landing. He might be willing to have the Westerlands plundered to preserve his family's hold on the Iron Throne, making Robb's plan strategically pointless.

[Blackfish Tully]

How much trouble? Robb has 6000 mounted troops in the Westerlands at Oxcross. After the battle, and once the Frey's have left him, he probably has considerably less than that. Now, his plan is for Tywin to come West, to loop around him, and to force Tywin to attack his mounted troops in a superior defensive position while they're trying to head back East.

But if Tywin besieges Riverrun, Robb has to leave the Westerlands (huge win for Tywin), and Robb has to forgo his defensive advantage (another win for Tywin) and Robb has to contend in the fords surrounding Riverrun with mounted troops against Tywin's superior numbered infantry. Edmure's garrisson is not enough to make up the windfall (given most lords have been granted leave to defend their own lands), so there's a very strong possibility Robb could lose this battle.

Or not. But it's something Tywin could do, and it's not something that Robb or Edmure know Tywin won't do. Consider Tywin may have resolved to go no farther West than Riverrun, knowing that while Robb has no hope of taking Casterly Rock, Stannis/the Tyrells are very well situated to take King's Landing. He might be willing to have the Westerlands plundered to preserve his family's hold on the Iron Throne, making Robb's plan strategically pointless.

Right Robb only has 6000 men but what happens when he summons all the rest of the Riverland troops like Edmure did . Now he would 12 to 15 thousand and Tywin is trapped between the walls of Riverrun and Robb and all the Riverlands soliders .

No lord can afford to allow his lands to be plundered without doing something about it , that's why Robb was desperate to get back north, What happens when the Westerland Lords decide this is the perfect time to rid themselves of the Lannisters and swear fealty to Robb Stark?

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

Tywin would be very stupid if he tried to besiege Riverrun, Robb would come back and he would be fighting Edmure's troops and Robb's troops, the Freys deserted but his forces were strong and numerous even with the Freys gone.

Tywin was scared about the fact that the Young Wolf was wandering in his domains, he was afraid he would march over Casterly Rock maybe, and he tried to persuade Robb's forces. And failed because Edmure was on his way

[Blackfish Tully]

Jaime's army was busy building siege engines at the time when they were wiped out by Robb, so it seems that they didn't exactly agree with your assessment that Riverrun is impregnable.

Right they were wiped out because they had to separate their army into three separate groups to besiege the castle which left them very vulnerable to attack. Reread the part where Jon explains how dangerous it would have been for Stannis to attack the Dreadfort , the same situation would have applied if Tywin would have laid siege to Riverrun.

And Jamie did not show himself to be a very good strategist at that point in his life.

[danm_999]

Right Robb only has 6000 men

As I said, likely well less than 6000 with the loss of the Frey's.

but what happens when he summons all the rest of the Riverland troops like Edmure did.

If the call doesn't come until after Tywin has besieged Riverrun and cut off coordination across the Red Fork and Tumblestone? Likely they're destroyed piecemeal. Edmure's plan works because he takes the initiative to unite his forces to oppose Tywin.

No lord can afford to allow his lands to be plundered without doing something about it , that's why Robb was desperate to get back north,

His lands aren't really being plundered, Robb can't take Casterly Rock. His vassals are the ones getting their lands plundered.

What happens when the Westerland Lords decide this is the perfect time to rid themselves of the Lannisters and swear fealty to Robb Stark?

The big Houses of the Westerlands; the Crakehalls, the Marbrands, the Brax's, the Lefford's, are in Tywin's army, and it's their land Robb is pillaging.

[danm_999]

Tywin would be very stupid if he tried to besiege Riverrun, Robb would come back and he would be fighting Edmure's troops and Robb's troops, the Freys deserted but his forces were strong and numerous even with the Freys gone.

Robb only has 6000 troops with him in the West at his strongest. With the Freys gone, Tywin probably outnumbers him 4-1.

Tywin was scared about the fact that the Young Wolf was wandering in his domains, he was afraid he would march over Casterly Rock maybe,

Very doubtful.

[danm_999]

Right they were wiped out because they had to separate their army into three separate groups to besiege the castle which left them very vulnerable to attack. Reread the part where Jon explains how dangerous it would have been for Stannis to attack the Dreadfort , the same situation would have applied if Tywin would have laid siege to Riverrun.

And Jamie did not show himself to be a very good strategist at that point in his life.

Jon tells Stannis it's dangerous because Ramsay Bolton has a greater host than Stannis which will come to relieve the Dreadfort if Stannis besieges it.

But Robb does not have a greater host than Tywin.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

Not that Robb would be fool to take Casterly Rock in such short number, but Tywin could have think so, as Robb was very bold and was winning all his battles, maybe Tywin thought the boy was becoming more and more confident in his militar abillities

[Mr Fixit]

Jon tells Stannis it's dangerous because Ramsay Bolton has a greater host than Stannis which will come to relieve the Dreadfort if Stannis besieges it.

But Robb does not have a greater host than Tywin.

Doesn't he? Some 5,000 Robb's troops, 11,000-strong Edmure's army + 10,000 Roose that could easily swing west in pursuit. That's 26,000 + whatever forces (probably in the thousands) that Edmure released in the beginning of ACOK

[sifth]

Is Edmure very smart, no. Does he have a heart of gold, hell yes

I honestly view him as one of the true victims of TWoTFK's. He had nothing to do with it and his only real crime was trying to protect his people. Robb should have trusted him with his plans and taken the Frey marriage pact more seriously. Robb really didn't take account of any of his commanders actions if you think about it, he just let Roose Bolton do his own thing on the other side of the river and never seemed to take account of his actions until he returned to the River Lands

[danm_999]

Doesn't he? Some 5,000 Robb's troops, 11,000-strong Edmure's army

Where's this 11,000 figure coming from?

+ 10,000 Roose that could easily swing west in pursuit. That's 26,000 + whatever forces (probably in the thousands) that Edmure released in the beginning of ACOK

Roose Bolton has planned to betray Robb at this point, and already sent a large chunk of Robb's forces to be slaughtered at Duskendale. These troops are not available.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

Is Edmure very smart, no. Does he have a heart of gold, hell yes

I honestly view him as one of the true victims of TWoTFK's. He had nothing to do with it and his only real crime was trying to protect his people. Robb should have trusted him with his plans and taken the Frey marriage pact more seriously. Robb really didn't take account of any of his commanders actions if you think about it, he just let Roose Bolton do his own thing on the other side of the river and never seemed to take account of his actions until he returned to the River Lands

Edmure was indeed the victim of TWoTFK's

Robb was very impulsive and he spitted on Lord Walder's Marriage Pact, he followed the heart and forgot to use his head, and because of it his bannermen paid for it.

Robb lost the war and died because he didn't stop to think about his actions. Well, he had already screwed the marriage pact, he could have insisted the wedding to be in Riverrun, instead of The Twins, I would like to see what Lord Walder would do, Robb could say, Edmure is the man, and he's temporary Lord of Riverrun, as my grandfather is ill, so let the wedding be at Riverrun, It would be very difficult to say no, if he had said no, Robb could started to suspect Lord Frey's intentions

[jarl the climber]

Where's this 11,000 figure coming from?

The only thing I can think of is that he he is refering to the troops that Edmure had guarding the crossings. I think he had 7,000 foot and 4,000 calvary

[danm_999]

The only thing I can think of is that he he is refering to the troops that Edmure had guarding the crossings. I think he had 7,000 foot and 4,000 calvary

Which are only available because Edmure called them together to stop Tywin crossing the Red Fork. If Tywin surrounds Riverrun and blocks the Red Fork and Tumblestone, he can stop them piecemeal. Or even better, he can stop any attempt of Edmure penned inside Riverrun of getting the word out to them.

[Axrendale]

What happens when the Westerland Lords decide this is the perfect time to rid themselves of the Lannisters and swear fealty to Robb Stark?

You're joking, right?

Ever since the end of the Reyne-Tarbeck rebellion, the Great Houses of the Westerlands have been so terrified of crossing Tywin Lannister (remember Lord Farman?) that the probability of any of them betraying him is pretty much less than zero. Even the Westerlings preferred to become double agents than commit themselves to the Starks - and that was with their castle occupied and their daughter married to Robb.

As long as the hold Casterly Rock, the Lannisters are never going to have to worry seriously about betrayal by their vassals.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Edmure was indeed the victim of TWoTFK's

Robb was very impulsive and he spitted on Lord Walder's Marriage Pact, he followed the heart and forgot to use his head, and because of it his bannermen paid for it.

Robb lost the war and died because he didn't stop to think about his actions. Well, he had already screwed the marriage pact, he could have insisted the wedding to be in Riverrun, instead of The Twins, I would like to see what Lord Walder would do, Robb could say, Edmure is the man, and he's temporary Lord of Riverrun, as my grandfather is ill, so let the wedding be at Riverrun, It would be very difficult to say no, if he had said no, Robb could started to suspect Lord Frey's intentions

Robb lost the war when Catelyn released the Kingslayer.

[Mikaele]

In his defense...Edmure was in charge of a major army, Robb should have included him in his confidential plans