Why do people call Edmure Tully stupid?

[The Titan's Legitimate Son]

I love him... love him to bits. He is so naive in the ways of war, but has a good hearted and you can see his actions had good intentions - i.e. attempting to smash the Lannister army, holding Riverrun (and giving it up later), blocking Tywin's way and attempting to strengthen the Frey alliance.

You have to admit, he is just a character who has been given ludicrously bad plot luck too.

He is overshadowed by his young nephew-King. He is a summer knight who has survived and will hopefully become badass to suit the Chuck Norris beard I imagine him to wield.

[The Mother of The Others]

He's standing next to the Fish in family photos. So he's been sold to us as not the sharpest tool the Tully's have. Doesn't mean he's dumb. It means he's the guy who gets taken advantage of by carjackers because his eyes aren't alert as he walks to his car. But often the people that happens to are earning six figure salaries because other aspects of their minds are working just fine. Just not the survival level thinking, the ability to make command decisions well in a split second.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

The Red Wedding happened because of two things:

1. Tywin's plotting.

2. Robb breaking his marriage contract.

Unless Edmure, was plotting with Tywin, convinced Robb to sleep with Jeyne, or convinced him to marry her, he has no blame for the Red Wedding.

[Arkantos]

The Red Wedding happened because of two things:

1. Tywin's plotting.

2. Robb breaking his marriage contract.

Unless Edmure, was plotting with Tywin, convinced Robb to sleep with Jeyne, or convinced him to marry her, he has no blame for the Red Wedding.

I believe the argument is that Edmure stopping Tywin allowed him to evade the trap Robb had planned for him.

If Tywin had been caught in it and Stannis had KL then Walder Frey wouldn't have had the backing he needed to carry out the Red Wedding.

Edmure also pulled troops out of the Twins which were there to keep an eye on things, so when they all went to the wedding there were no troops within the castle loyal to the Starks.

[Trident full of Dogs]

I appreciate this thread! I was wondering that as well. I've always liked all Tullys (maybe not Lord Hoster he just showed up in the books all dying already so whatsapp with him?). Edmure strikes me as a decent, good, normal guy, as far as normal goes in Westeros.

[The Titan's Legitimate Son]

I appreciate this thread! I was wondering that as well. I've always liked all Tullys (maybe not Lord Hoster he just showed up in the books all dying already so whatsapp with him?). Edmure strikes me as a decent, good, normal guy, as far as normal goes in Westeros.

Ruddy Hoster, had to go and die! How inconsiderate! Some people are just natural-born arsehols! :P

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Because instead of him staying his ass at Riverrun and holding it, as the Blackfish did, he decided that he wanted to save his ego after being captured by the Lannister forces and fight Tywin head-on, versus letting him pass so that Stannis could take KL. Catelyn pleaded with him to stay as Robb commanded him to and notes that he was thinks of redeeming his bruised pride. Dumbass indeed, because where is he now...

[*Ceallach*]

Yes how dare he go against the Norm and care about his smallfolk? and to not be able to read minds? Surely that's deserving of derision and scorn. /sarcasm

i actually felt sorry for the poor bastard. Two Harpys for sisters, a dying father and a badass uncle he could never live up to.

At least he took the Frey oath seriously and wasn't led by his knob -(robb im looking in your direction).

[Buried Treasure]

It's easy to think Edmure isn't the smartest because the principle POVs we see of him (Cat at intervals through books 1-3 and Jaime in AFFC) don't think too highly of him. They don't think he is a drooling idiot but they don't rate him with particularly good judgement either.

If we look at his choices throughout the novels I certainly don't think he displayed as much intelligence as Cat or Robb but I'm not sure he was stupid either. I don't recall the specifics of how Edmure came to be besieged by Jaime at Riverrun so I'll leave judgement of that to somebody else - did Edmure make any errors or was he entirely a hostage to circumstance?

The first instance I really recall much of Edmure was from Cat's opening chapter of ACOK. The riverlords have just been allowed to return to defend their own lands, leaving Robb's army too small to face Tywin. As I understand it Robb permitted this only because he had already secretly hatched the plan to not take Tywin's bait but instead attack Ser Stafford and this is an indication that Robb was smart enough to outthink everybody else. Cat and the Blackfish agreed that letting the riverlords leave Riverrun and trying to face Tywin without them would be an error, which I therefore take to be the standard reasonably intelligent view to hold. Edmure was clearly not thinking in these terms, he was the one that argued for taking the course of action that Cat and Brynden both thought was a mistake, so in that instance I don't think he was being as smart as everybody else.

I don't agree with Edmure recalling the armies to face Tywin in the battle of the fords, IMO he exceeded his authority. However I would only call Edmure stupid for this plan if it would not have reasonably had a good chance of success. Edmure could not have reasonably foreseen that the brothers Baratheon situation would resolve so soon and Tywin would need to move back to KL so soon - nobody else did, Tywin moved only because he thought the Baratheon stalemate would grant him time, so would the plan have worked but for that? Just stopping Tywin crossing would not have been enough, it would still leave Tywin at large in the riverlands with an army, the plan would required a way of reducing the effectiveness of Tywins army as a fighting force to be a smart one:

I've sent word to Helman Tallhart to join [bolton] with the garrison Robb left at the Twins...I've commanded [bolton] to retake Harrenhal....once the castle falls, Lord Tywin will have no safe retreat. My own levies will defend the fords of the Red Fork against his crossing. If he attacks across the river, he'll end up as Rhaegar did when he tried to cross the Trident. If he holds back, he'll be caught between Riverrun and Harrenhal, and when Robb returns from the west we can finish him for good and all.

The plan worked more or less as Edmure said up until the point Tywin got beaten back across the fords, but we know Tywin was not trapped between Riverrun and Harrenhal because we know that he still had an open route to KL (ie in a scenario where Tywin was not called back to defend KL he could still have retreated there as an escape route). Edmure seemed to me to do OK with the tactics of the battle of the fords but I don't think he had a great strategy. So once again he doesn't seem to be to be super dumb but he doesn't seem particularly smart either.

[Lion of Judah]

Edmure was not stupid, he was desperate. He was in a difficult spot watching his smallfolk suffer and he decided to do something about it, turns out it was a bad idea, but I respect him for not sitting comfortably in his castle while his people are raped, marauded, and murdered.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

I believe the argument is that Edmure stopping Tywin allowed him to evade the trap Robb had planned for him.

If Tywin had been caught in it and Stannis had KL then Walder Frey wouldn't have had the backing he needed to carry out the Red Wedding.

Edmure also pulled troops out of the Twins which were there to keep an eye on things, so when they all went to the wedding there were no troops within the castle loyal to the Starks.

It's still silly. Saying Edmure is to blame is basically excusing Robb's fuck up (I loved Robb, but marrying Jeyne was a huge fuck up). At best, Edmure gave Tywin a lucky break which eventually resulted in the Red Wedding. But that is different than holding responsibility for it. There is so many, so many people who have a more direct hand in it (either intentionally or accidentally).

I don't remember when he pulled troops from the Twins, so I can't comment on that. Though, I suspect that it would not have stopped the Red Wedding, just made it more difficult.

[Dimadick]

I don't recall the specifics of how Edmure came to be besieged by Jaime at Riverrun so I'll leave judgement of that to somebody else - did Edmure make any errors or was he entirely a hostage to circumstance?

In the opening stages of the War of Five Kings? He was never besieged by Jaime. He was captured in an earlier fight. The remnants of his army were placed under the command oF Tytos Blackwood and retreated towards Riverrun. When Jaime followed them there and started a siege, the defenders were still under the command of Tytos.

[Castellan]

I don't know why people say he is stupid. It seems less than accurate. I would say his outstanding feature is a knack for general incompetence. Which is exacerbated by his being conscious that everyone, especially his father, tends to write him off because he is generally incompetent. He is slightly dimwitted as well, of course, but many dumb people get by better than he does.

[Buried Treasure]

In the opening stages of the War of Five Kings? He was never besieged by Jaime. He was captured in an earlier fight. The remnants of his army were placed under the command oF Tytos Blackwood and retreated towards Riverrun. When Jaime followed them thereand started a siege, the defenders were still under the command of Tytos.

That would be why I had to refrain from commenting on that then :dunce: . I can discuss a lot of ACOK and ASoS without checking back with the books but am well overdue for a GoT reread, cheers.

[Larry of the Lawn]

He didn't notice that Red Wedding was happening behind his door.

He was focusing on keeping the fish from flopping.

[ServantOnIce]

Edmure failed in a lot of situations as a military commander. Where should I begin ? There was only one way the Lannisters could attack and he lost the region, he had the overall commando of the Riverlands and the Riverlands got steamrolled, he let himself trap in Riverrun, he proclaimed Robb as King, he disregarded the orders of Robb and therefore allowed the Lannisters to escape a trap, thus he also safed King's landing from Stannis. He ordered the guard of 300 man at the Twins to retreat allowing the RW. He let himself taken prisoner 2 times.

That's pretty much Edmure.

Costly Errors also he let it slip that Jaime Lannister had escaped . . . . once that happened Robb was a dead wolf.

[Arkantos]

It's still silly. Saying Edmure is to blame is basically excusing Robb's fuck up (I loved Robb, but marrying Jeyne was a huge fuck up). At best, Edmure gave Tywin a lucky break which eventually resulted in the Red Wedding. But that is different than holding responsibility for it. There is so many, so many people who have a more direct hand in it (either intentionally or accidentally).

I don't remember when he pulled troops from the Twins, so I can't comment on that. Though, I suspect that it would not have stopped the Red Wedding, just made it more difficult.

I don't think the argument is that he's the sole reason for the Red Wedding... He just played a big part in allowing it to come about.

[The Wolves]

I like him, he's the only Tully I like.

[LordBloodraven]

Edmure is not stupid, he's not a great commander but that's it. Otherwise, he's all good.

I don't think he's stupid. I feel he's extremely incompetent.

You make it sound like a compliment :).

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

I don't think the argument is that he's the sole reason for the Red Wedding... He just played a big part in allowing it to come about.

I wouldn't even put him as a big part of it. The big five are:

Tywin

Walder Frey

Karstark

Bolton

Robb

Even below them, others share more of the blame:

Black Walder (I forget if it is official or just my own theory, but I'm pretty sure he played a part in it)

The Westerlings (not all, I think Jeyne and her brother were not in on it)

Various other Freys (I'm talking about those in the plotting, not simply for participating)

That's why I can't see Edmure having any blame. He's so far down the list. He fucked up and could have prevented the Red Wedding if he hadn't, but there's a difference between not preventing something you don't know is about to occur and actively causing something.