Why do people call Edmure Tully stupid?

[Trigger Warning]

he didn't listen to his king's orders.

Did he not hold Riverrun?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

True. But they may not of. Taking out Tywin from the equation reduces the Tyrell gains vastly. If Tywins a captive then the Lannisters would be the losing side.

They are two pretty big if's. If the Tyrells don't attack Kings Landing and If Robb was able to capture Tywin despite being vastly outnumbered.

[The Bedding]

If Edmure is stupid, then Catelyn Stark is stupid.

[new djinn]

Edmure is surrounded with irony.

-When he splits forces to chase down raiders plaguing the Riverlands, he a fool, but when Ned split his guard to arrest the same raiders, he honorable.

-When Edmure goes out whoring the same night Jaime nearly escapes, he a fool, but when Cat releases Jaime, she a mother.

-When he uses favorable ground to gain advantage over a larger force, he a fool, but when Robb does it,he a genius.

-When he has to help his smallfolk and tries to protect them, he a fool, but when Robb has to help his northern smallfolk, it his duty.

-When he supports his nephew declaration of Kingship in order to secure the northern support to the Riverlands, he a fool, but when Renly/Tyrion make a deal with the Tyrells to gain their support, they are cunnig politicians.

-When he gets proactive to prevent being besieged in RR, he a fool, but when Blackfish does get besieged in RR, he a badass.

-When he makes friendships with the next generation of his bannermen, he a fool, but when Stannis/Robb just lose support of their bannermen, they are great.

I guess when he married a women that suited the goals of his House/faction, he was a fool, but when Robb/Blackfish didn't do it, they were great.

Edmure story is about double standards.

[Trigger Warning]

Most of Robbs battles were fought while vastly outnumbered. Suprise was the key. The plan was to draw him back into the west and ambush his army. They did it before plenty of times. If all went according to plan they could quite easily have took Tywin captive. As for the Tyrells... Not too big of an if. I understand what you mean about them. They dealt with Littlefinger/Tyrion. But at the end of the day it all comes down to Maces call. And if he decides the Lannisters are a losing cause then they'd just have to make their peace with Stannis

I doubt the Tyrells would rather have a Florent queen than see their men besieging King's Landing or smashing into Stannis' rear.

Also Robb's victories in the opening of the campaign were very risky, his entire strategy relied on Jaime taking the bait and Jaime's poor screen of outriders and pickets. Something that could have gone awry incredibly easily, the second time he gains great victories it's entirely dependent on a goat path and their subsequent entering of the Westerlands entirely unnoticed and again, outriders and pickets. Tywin's a different beast and even if he manages to turn the tide of this 20,000 vs 5000 battle Tywin commands the reserve and can quite easily escape or withdraw.

[JoeyBanana]

He is no better or worse than Robb, Catelyn, or Brynden. They lost that war together and if you really want to engage in victim blaming for the RW, consider that they all made grievous mistakes that severly hurt their cause.

No, Edmure is not stupid and most of this assumption is based on the biased POVs of Catelyn and Jaime. He's rather smart but since he is a bit...floppy in the head sometimes, he doesn't get the respect he deserves. He's my favorite Tully, by the way, but too much of his praise is only given to piss on Robb or Cat, which is annoying.

[Starkfaithful85]

he is a good man and did things like allow his lords to go back to their holdfasts to protect their smallfolk...truly a noble thing to do but because he divided his forces it made them easier to beat bc they were fighting individually instead of united...also he took in the smallfolk when riverrun should have been manned by fighting men only, like the blackfish did. like a said earlier he is a good man but bc he lacks the type of conviction/ruthlessness that military commanders sometimes need he weakens his position as well as robbs in the process

[JonCon's Red Beard]

He is no better or worse than Robb, Catelyn, or Brynden.

This post made me realise something. He's "stupid" because he's alive and he was caught. Robb and Cat had "heroic" deaths, and Brynden was lucky he didn't attend the wedding, and later, he defended Riverrun and had a epic escape. Edmure, otoh, is now a hostage because he was consummating his own marriage during the Red Wedding, like that was his fault.

This made me remember another thread we've been discussing recently, about Arthur Dayne. He's famous because he died during an epic famous duel against Ned Stark and six other men. Of course, he's remembered as the great Arthur Dayne, sword of the Morning, even though he never actually fought in the war nor was involved in anything but the defeat of a group of outlaws. But, if he had been taken Connington's role instead, for instance, and he had been Aegon's tutor for twelve years, maybe we could have found out he was actually a pretty dull chap who blame himself everyday for surviving while his friends didn't and such. They myth starts at one person's death, like Robb. He died but Edmure survived, that's what makes him look like a "loser", because he didn't have a "glorious" death.

[Boarsbane]

Most of Robbs battles were fought while vastly outnumbered. Suprise was the key. The plan was to draw him back into the west and ambush his army. They did it before plenty of times. If all went according to plan they could quite easily have took Tywin captive. As for the Tyrells... Not too big of an if. I understand what you mean about them. They dealt with Littlefinger/Tyrion. But at the end of the day it all comes down to Maces call. And if he decides the Lannisters are a losing cause then they'd just have to make their peace with Stannis

Tywin and his commanders know the Westerlands far better than Robb and Blackfish could ever hope to in their brief time there, Robb capturing Tywin would not be easy, it would be damn near impossible given the location and Tywin's much larger army. The only positive to Edmure not stopping Tywin would be Stannis might be able to take KL, assuming the Tyrells don't intervene. Robb was hoping Stannis would kill Joff and Cersei and Tywin would sue for peace so they could deal with Stannis, who would come after both of them.

[Lee-Sensei]

I will never believe that the failure at the fords was esmurss fault. Robb was the commander and failed to give clear and conscise orders. I think he and beynden eailroaded edmure to get him to marry afrey.

[Dead Wolf]

I will never believe that the failure at the fords was esmurss fault. Robb was the commander and failed to give clear and conscise orders. I think he and beynden eailroaded edmure to get him to marry afrey.

Edmure marrying a Frey was Cat's idea, not Robb's.

[Lee-Sensei]

Robb marrying a frey was cats ideas. Not edmure iirc.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

It doesn't matter whose idea it was. Someone important had to marry a Frey after Robb fucked up. Edward was the Lord of Riverrun, it's the next best thing.

[Dead Wolf]

Robb marrying a frey was cats ideas. Not edmure iirc.

"There must be something that will soothe his pride" (Robb about Walder Frey) and Cat responds, "Not something. Someone." Edmure. The man Walder has wanted to marry one of his daughters since young Tully turned 12. Try to see beyond your hatred of Robb.

[Good Guy Garlan]

" My people. They were afraid"

If Edmure is stupid, then all the other lords of Westeros could use a little stupidity.

He's like Dunk and Brienne: a knight who remembered his vows.

If Stannis is the King Who Cared, Edmure is the Lord Who Cared

[JoeyBanana]

It doesn't matter whose idea it was. Someone important had to marry a Frey after Robb fucked up. Edward was the Lord of Riverrun, it's the next best thing.

Well, it kinda does. The whole argument of Robb's incompetency (and Brynden's hyprocrisy) revolves around them blackmailing/forcing Edmure into marrying a Frey girl or else it would just be a boring, ambigious situation where the right or wrong isn't definitive. We can't have that.

(It's still not fair, though, Edmure deserves someone like Arianne or Val, even if Roslin is one of the few "okay" Freys.)

[Wmarshal]

Why? Val is a savage, Roslin is of the most powerful river house.

[JoeyBanana]

Why? Val is a savage, Roslin is of the most powerful river house.

Are you serious?

Any "savage" (yes, even Ygritte) would be better than a girl whose family murdered your nephew and sister, threathened to hang you on a daily basis for weeks (or months?) and once a son is born to you, will kill you aswell. She's a sweet girl, no doubt, but come on.

[Lee-Sensei]

Cat was stating the facts. Walder wanted a marriage and edmure had to do it because robb didnt.

[Wmarshal]

I am, Roslin is a fine person, any child of Val is no better then a smallfolk. And she has horrid wildling beliefs like killing children when a master said they fine.