How do you think the relationship between Renly and Loras started?

[Winter's Knight]

The app states that Renly and Loras were in love, Loras talks like he absolutely adored him ("When the sun has set, no candle can replace it." ". But I will never betray Renly, by word or deed. He was the king that should have been. He was the best of them.").

[PatrickStormborn]

ah yes, true, I'm rereading the books because I forgot some stuff, but I never gave such importance to it (Loras and Renly relationship)

Just because neither Loras or Renly was a POV character doesn't mean their relationship wasn't important. It was easily the biggest reason for Renly's alliance with the Reach lords, allowing him to be the most powerful contender for the throne with an army of 80,000+.

[Ser Lepus]

Loras started his relationship with Renly when he was his squire, and at the beginning of AGOT he was already a knight at fourteen years old, so there is no way around it: Renly seduced Loras when he was still a child.

Renly may even be a pedophile like Lyn Corbray rather than a true homosexual (which was often more tolerated in the past than true homosexuality, as long as the victim was a slave or a commoner of low birth).

What I find weird is Mace's acceptance of their relationship. While banging servant boys was often overlooked (european Middle Ages, turks, arabs...etc.) or openly accepted (romans, japanese...etc.), only a few cultures like the spartans accepted for their noble-born boys to be seduced and used for sex by adult men, and the westerosi obviously isn't one of those cultures (homosexuality is treated as something to be ashamed of that must remain hidden).

The Tyrells apparently all know of Loras' sexual orientation, everybody in KL seems to know that Renly is gay, and its obvious that they care for each other, so it seems impossible even for Mace Tyrell that he wouldn't add two and two and realise that Renly was banging Loras when he was a twelve or thirteen years old boy, and that is a major affront worthy of a declaration of war.

Maybe homosexuality (and even pederasty) is more accepted in the Reach than it is elsewhere?

[Winter's Knight]

Loras was sixteen in AGoT-there is a five year difference between him and Renly.

[SkyBry]

Really! Renly a pedophile?!

Stop. Just stop.

I know/knew straight Kids/teens who were together at that age. Not weird or creepy.

[A Dance With Daario]

i think its one of the most loving relationships in the books, kinda pathetic that people want to change it into a pedophilia story.

[Ser Lepus]

Loras was sixteen in AGoT-there is a five year difference between him and Renly.

Really! Renly a pedophile?!

Stop. Just stop.

I know/knew straight Kids/teens who were together at that age. Not weird or creepy.

Mmm...yes, he was sixteen and not fourteen at the beginning of AGOT, which makes it less creepy. But still, did he squire for Renly since what age? I still find it creepy that Renly seduced a young boy who was his charge.

Also, homosexuality is seen as something to be ashamed of in Westeros, so, if Mace sent his son to Renly and later he learned Loras is gay, wouldn't he put the fault on Renly?

[Bayard]

i think its one of the most loving relationships in the books, kinda pathetic that people want to change it into a pedophilia story.

I agree with you, it was a loving relationship, but here we talk about how it all began. If it started when Loras was 12, how is that alright?? Do you think a child that young can really make his own decisions?? Look how Loras talks after Renly's death, as if his life is over, even if he's still just a teenager!! What does he really know about love??? The fact that Loras loves Renly now, to me shows nothing about how it began. Even if it was forceful in the beginning, when a child is so young he is easy to influence.... he could have come to like it, something similar to Stockholm syndrome.

Many people tend to be influenced by the HBO series, but when I read the book I didn't think for a second that Loras was the one manipulating the situation. I always thought it was Renly who was the mastermind. After Ned's arrest, the Tyrells didn't actually need a war to have a queen, wasn't it easier for them to just negociate with Cersei to change Sansa with Margaery?

So, we can speculate, but I think the info we have is to small to draw a conclusion. I doubt we will ever learn the truth, they are two unimportant characters, one is already dead, the other soon enough

[Castellan]

I can't see the need for the question. They met. They were attracted. They had a mutual interest in chivalry and its trappings.

[Light a wight tonight]

Not so. Stannis, Jaime and Garlan all hint at the relationship too...

Changed my mind, need to re-word. Gregor hints that Loras is gay, and since he spends lots of time with Renly there would certainly be some suspicion that there was a relationship. Beyond praying, of course.

[James Arryn]

Gregor Clegane talks?

And re: age, are people still trying to extrapolate morality lessons by post-applying modern legal standards to a world with child warlords, dragon queens and assassin babies?

Speaking of assassin shadow babies, was that a violation of child labor laws??!.!.!??!

Edit: Also, Westeros doesn't seem to think in exclusive sexual persuasion as we do. There are very few instances of anyone even venturing an opinion, let alone a social stigma. Cersei seems repelled by it, and a couple of other instances, but that's about it and no one who engages in other than heterosexual activities seems defined by or ashamed of same.

[Eucratides_Megas]

Maybe homosexuality (and even pederasty) is more accepted in the Reach than it is elsewhere?

Well the Reach does somewhat resemble France

[Winter's Knight]

Guys-we don't know that Renly and Loras have been peelin the grape ever since Loras started squiring-there is no indication that he was a child when it all began.

[ambi76]

Loras started his relationship with Renly when he was his squire (?), and at the beginning of AGOT he was already a knight at fourteen years old, so there is no way around it: Renly seduced Loras when he was still a child.

This sentence is one big contradiction. A 14 year old knight is not a child in Westeros, no matter how much this offends your 21. century sensibilites. Even 13 year olds are considered marriageable. Male (Joffrey, Tyrion) or female (Sansa, Dany). And we don't have any idea when they started to fuck anyway. It's just paranoid Cersei who blames it on squireship.

[Yellow Toad]

Also, homosexuality is seen as something to be ashamed of in Westeros, so, if Mace sent his son to Renly and later he learned Loras is gay, wouldn't he put the fault on Renly?

This isn't quite true. I don't recall anything indicating systemic homophobia in Westeros. There are no anti-sodomy laws from the state or the Faith. The one gay POV we got didn't have any undertones of personal shame or fear, which is something one would expect if they'd grown up in a place where homosexuality is considered a shameful thing. There are a couple of all male orders where same sex relations are discussed or are just don't matter enough to warrant discussion. Loras spoke freely with Jaime about his feelings towards Renly. There was a Night's Watch brother that broke down crying when his lover was returned dead and eyeless and no one mocked or laughed- they were actually rather sympathetic. There are cases of individual bigotry, but individual bigotry isn't an indication of cultural shaming.

[Bayard]

This isn't quite true. I don't recall anything indicating systemic homophobia in Westeros. There are no anti-sodomy laws from the state or the Faith. The one gay POV we got didn't have any undertones of personal shame or fear, which is something one would expect if they'd grown up in a place where homosexuality is considered a shameful thing. There are a couple of all male orders where same sex relations are discussed or are just don't matter enough to warrant discussion. Loras spoke freely with Jaime about his feelings towards Renly. There was a Night's Watch brother that broke down crying when his lover was returned dead and eyeless and no one mocked or laughed- they were actually rather sympathetic. There are cases of individual bigotry, but individual bigotry isn't an indication of cultural shaming.

I noticed that as well, there seem not to be any laws concerning homosexuality, which I find a little bit odd. Why? because the Faith is vrey clearly inspired by Christianity. Doesn't the fact that we haven't seen any open homosexual relantions is a clear indicator that it is not only a tabu, but also dangerous? You don't get to be the only religion on a continent like Westeros (except the North and Iron Islands) being lenient, when there are so many other religions just over the Narrow Sea. To me it's clear that the Faith was very tough, and that the sparrows and the Faith Militant weren't there just to protect the people, they were an inquisition. Yes, Loras and Jon Connington seem to think and talk without a problem about their feelings, but they are important nobles, they have armies, they can do whatever they want, especially after the Maegor reforms.

[Larry of the Lawn]

With a peach, on a breezy summer day near Storm's End.

[Nudu]

At what age do you start being a squire?

12.

[Larry of the Lawn]

I noticed that as well, there seem not to be any laws concerning homosexuality, which I find a little bit odd. Why? because the Faith is vrey clearly inspired by Christianity. Doesn't the fact that we haven't seen any open homosexual relantions is a clear indicator that it is not only a tabu, but also dangerous? You don't get to be the only religion on a continent like Westeros (except the North and Iron Islands) being lenient, when there are so many other religions just over the Narrow Sea. To me it's clear that the Faith was very tough, and that the sparrows and the Faith Militant weren't there just to protect the people, they were an inquisition. Yes, Loras and Jon Connington seem to think and talk without a problem about their feelings, but they are important nobles, they have armies, they can do whatever they want, especially after the Maegor reforms.

Nope, not at all. Just because the author doesn't go out of his way to show an open public homosexual relationship doesn't mean it's a taboo. And your idea about only seeing it in the nobles is more easily explained by the fact that other than Davos, every POV is highborn, and even Davos spends most of his time around lords and shit.

The Faith is militant about a lot of stuff, but there's nothing yet to suggest that they punish homosexuality. And even less to suggest that there is a it's a taboo in Westeros. It might be the source of jokes, but it's not a taboo.

edit: Tyrion hired two Ibbenese guards for Shae who were pretty openly homosexual.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

12.

14

But by and large, it's pretty fluent. Prodigies become squires (and knights) earlier. Or maybe it's daddy's influence.