Steubenville High incident - Anonymous releases video incriminating those involved..

[Lord O' Bones]

I suspect we are trying to assign reasons for this situation such as alcohol or sports culture to help us understand how this could happen when it may be much simpler than that.

Sometimes people are just fucking assholes. Not trying to suppress discussion of any other factors. Just thought it should be mentioned.

[Shryke]

People aren't "just assholes" for the most part though. They are also reflections of the cultures they were raised in.

The incident itself displays all the signs of sexist, dehumanizing "frat boy party" culture (rape culture if you so choose) that enables these incidents to happen in many places.

The apparent cover-up may the result of an insular community trying to protect people it sees as important (and who's importance traces right back to the insane levels of team worship you see in some sports cultures)

Attempting to say they were just assholes is denying the social context in which this act took place. One that encouraged it, didn't stop it, video-taped it for amusement and then avoided punishing anyone for it.

[Lord O' Bones]

Attempting to say they were just assholes is denying the social context in which this act took place.

Good thing I specifically didn't do that then.

I'm just saying that while it is great to try to work out these factors that contribute to something like this being allowed to come to pass, it for the most part takes fucking assholes, drunk or sober, entitled or not, too much team spirit or not, to ultimately allow it to happen.

Unless you think you can apply these external factors to a group of good people and get the same terrible results.

[Fragile Bird]

I agree with LoB - there's an underlying meaness to these kids, they're bullies. And/or extraordinarily immature, but even staggering immaturity doesn't completely explain the attitude.

[Shryke]

Good thing I specifically didn't do that then.

I'm just saying that while it is great to try to work out these factors that contribute to something like this being allowed to come to pass, it for the most part takes fucking assholes, drunk or sober, entitled or not, too much team spirit or not, to ultimately allow it to happen.

Unless you think you can apply these external factors to a group of good people and get the same terrible results.

"Fucking Assholes" don't come out of nowhere. Nor are they supported by nothing.

I mean, this wasn't something done behind closed doors. This was public. And that means a large degree of, if nothing else, implicit acceptance of the behaviour from the peer group that was there with them.

[Lord O' Bones]

Shryke, you are arguing with air.

Everything mentioned is a contributing factor, I think. I'm just pointing out that it's not something you can logic or anthropologize away. The most common factor in these situations is that most of the people involved just suck at being empathetic people.

[The Monkey]

It doesn't seem unlikely that there was some cover-up in this town. We had a similar case a few years back, where the "popular kid" was accused, and later convicted, of raping a girl. What happened? The teachers, and even the local priest, welcomed the guy back with open arms, while the girl was shunned out and accused of just spreading evil rumours (even after the courts had convicted him, mind you). Soon thereafter, the guy raped another girl. Shit like this makes my blood boil. Just when she needed the adult establishment the most, it turned its back on her. Now, it's too early to say if this case in America is similar, but it sure looks like it. Punishments need to handed out not only to the rapists, but also to each and every one who participated in the cover-up.

[All-for-Joffrey]

It doesn't seem unlikely that there was some cover-up in this town. We had a similar case a few years back, where the "popular kid" was accused, and later convicted, of raping a girl. What happened? The teachers, and even the local priest, welcomed the guy back with open arms, while the girl was shunned out and accused of just spreading evil rumours (even after the courts had convicted him, mind you). Soon thereafter, the guy raped another girl. Shit like this makes my blood boil. Just when she needed the adult establishment the most, it turned its back on her. Now, it's too early to say if this case in America is similar, but it sure looks like it. Punishments need to handed out not only to the rapists, but also to each and every one who participated in the cover-up.

Including the webmaster of the team's website, who has nude photos of high school girls. I don't think we've mentioned that part yet.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

I've experienced being in high school and college sports environments, and the 'tribalism' mentioned definitely exists and is a very powerful tool. You find yourself instinctively drawn to it, almost like evolution has designed us that way. Most dangerous aspect is that often in those surroundings you find yourself saying/doing things you'd never normally do, usually to subconsciously impress bigger, stronger guys.

I don't think you can 'eliminate' that culture though, it exists world-wide and seems to be something guys instinctively gravitate to. If you banned sports they'd probably just form gangs.

A lot depends on who the 'alpha male' character is. If they're a sound person then that feeds onto the rest and you don't have any problems. However if its a morally bankrupt asshole then everyone around them gets poisoned. I'd guess thats whats going on in this place.

[Antonius Pius]

I've experienced being in high school and college sports environments, and the 'tribalism' mentioned definitely exists and is a very powerful tool. You find yourself instinctively drawn to it, almost like evolution has designed us that way. Most dangerous aspect is that often in those surroundings you find yourself saying/doing things you'd never normally do, usually to subconsciously impress bigger, stronger guys.

Yes, that's true, it takes a lot of strength to stand up to group-think, especially when al you want to do is to be left alone and get through highschool yourself. There are times when you can stand up for what is right or lay low and choose the path of least resistance. I know I could have done better in those days, sometimes it still bothers me.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

Yes, that's true, it takes a lot of strength to stand up to group-think, especially when al you want to do is to be left alone and get through highschool yourself. There are times when you can stand up for what is right or lay low and choose the path of least resistance. I know I could have done better in those days, sometimes it still bothers me.

I think most of us have been in that situation.

The worst part of being in a group like that for me was the unspoken 'law' that nothing was allowed to be taken seriously or be treated as sacred. If you broke that law, you were a 'fag'

I'm still friends with some of those guys from that period, and fortunately most of them have grown up and realised how pathetic it all was

[Shryke]

Shryke, you are arguing with air.

Everything mentioned is a contributing factor, I think. I'm just pointing out that it's not something you can logic or anthropologize away. The most common factor in these situations is that most of the people involved just suck at being empathetic people.

And I'm saying you can't try and just act like these people are "assholes" as if that's some sort of rare genetic factor that just happens to people. People BECOME assholes. They don't start off that way.

Saying they are assholes is pretty meaningless. It's saying "people who do bad things are bad".

[Fragile Bird]

Shryke, you and Bones are both right. These guys are assholes, first of all, and secondly, something has influenced the version of asshatdom that they reside in. Ser_Not_Appearing_Yet spoke to the culture you are talking about, I think. I don't think your statements are mutually exclusive.

[Lord O' Bones]

And I'm saying you can't try and just act like these people are "assholes" as if that's some sort of rare genetic factor that just happens to people. People BECOME assholes. They don't start off that way.

Saying they are assholes is pretty meaningless. It's saying "people who do bad things are bad".

Again, it's a good thing then that I specifically didn't say that.

What you are now proposing is so expansive as to include infant rearing. If I didn't already agree with that idea I might say that you are totally missing the point I was making. Or not. Who cares? You'll miss the point of this post as well just so you can argue some more about nothing.

[Shryke]

Again, it's a good thing then that I specifically didn't say that.

What you are now proposing is so expansive as to include infant rearing. If I didn't already agree with that idea I might say that you are totally missing the point I was making. Or not. Who cares? You'll miss the point of this post as well just so you can argue some more about nothing.

I'm saying that your initial comment:

I suspect we are trying to assign reasons for this situation such as alcohol or sports culture to help us understand how this could happen when it may be much simpler than that.

Sometimes people are just fucking assholes. Not trying to suppress discussion of any other factors. Just thought it should be mentioned.

Is an attitude that disregards how vital all those other factors are to what happened here. It's an attitude that attempts to, at the least, minimize how important the cultural factors are in this incident. It's the old "Isolated Incident" answer. It's just a problem with these kids. (this seems especially relevant when your first post is a defence of sports culture)

And this is all especially galling in light of what exactly made this incident so news worthy: It was public. It was recorded. And no one did shit.

This girl was sexually assaulted, on camera, in front of a crowd. And no one stopped it. And no one did much about it afterwords, other then spread the pics/videos around.

That these guys are "just assholes" is the least relevant factor at work here. All these actions were explicitly supported by the culture they live in. You seem really interested in making it about just them though, it seems mostly because you seem uncomfortable with the implications it has for the culture around the incident.

[Lord O' Bones]

Well done. You quoted me saying exactly what you are pretending I didn't say. Nice one.

You attribute to me motives that just aren't there. Bully for you.

Once again any meaningful discussion is waylaid by your insatiable need to be right about something... anything. Even if it isn't even being argued. Congratulations.

[Relic]

Once again any meaningful discussion is waylaid by your insatiable need to be right about something... anything. Even if it isn't even being argued. Congratulations.

Lol, in all fairness, that can be said about 99% of the posts in Gen Chat.

As for the OP - This abhorrent behavior just solidifies my opinion that the adolescent male is the lowest form of life on this planet. Followed closely by the fully grown male homosapien.

[Shryke]

Well done. You quoted me saying exactly what you are pretending I didn't say. Nice one.

You attribute to me motives that just aren't there. Bully for you.

Once again any meaningful discussion is waylaid by your insatiable need to be right about something... anything. Even if it isn't even being argued. Congratulations.

Ahh, you are doing this again. :rolleyes:

I didn't recognize you with the new screen name.

I quoted what you said and interpret it in light of your other comments in the thread. You seem to really want to downplay the cultural component of this incident.

[sologdin]

It was public. It was recorded. And no one did shit.

This girl was sexually assaulted, on camera, in front of a crowd. And no one stopped it. And no one did much about it afterwords, other then spread the pics/videos around.

yeah, those are the salient facts supporting the raze the town and disperse the residents to re-education camps position.

[Lord O' Bones]

Ahh, you are doing this again. :rolleyes:

I didn't recognize you with the new screen name.

I quoted what you said and interpret it in light of your other comments in the thread. You seem to really want to downplay the cultural component of this incident.

I have no idea why it would seem that way. I obliquely asked for clarification in response to a vague comment about "team spirit." I suppose I should have been more direct. I introduced another separate factor into the discussion that had yet to be mentioned. I then made the assertion that the most common factor was poor empathy, which I stand by. I'm not trying to downplay anything else and have said so.

I'm curious. What is the "this" that I'm doing again?