‘Muslim Patrol’ vigilantes forcing ‘people to stop drinking and women to cover up’ in London

[Opisthokont]

Yep "some projections", normally made by those who have no math skills, unlike the BBC who made accurate predictions.

That page also lists the total fertility rate of Bosnia and Herzegovina, a European country with a Muslim population of roughly 45%. It's the lowest in the world.

[paddington]

Muslims are like 4% of the British population, to get to a majority in 50 years is going to take some doing.

I am not sure what our official stance towards Israel has been or is infact now, I don't belive the small amount of Muslims in the country would be able to change that at all.

[MinDonner]

Well, the anti-Israel self-aggrandising buffoon politician George Galloway did get elected to parliament. His most notable achievement so far has been a fabulous cat impersonation on Celebrity Big Brother and he is widely disregarded by all and sundry. His actual influence on governmental policy is probably in negative figures.

[Free Northman]

Muslims are like 4% of the British population, to get to a majority in 50 years is going to take some doing.

I am not sure what our official stance towards Israel has been or is infact now, I don't belive the small amount of Muslims in the country would be able to change that at all.

Fair enough.

[Lummel]

...I'm not talking about society being overrun by hardline extremists. But what I am talking about is society changing sufficiently that say 30% or 40% end up observing values that are foreign to the traditional values of the host country...

Suddenly, you're out of luck if you simply want to follow the lifestyle you always did in the land of your ancestors...

You are assuming that there is some group of values that we can identify as traditional and that were consistent across the population.

This is a static model of society. But societies consist of living people with different ideas and concerns. You know, life is change, you can't cross the same river twice, that kind of thing. We look back and imagine a consistency and a coherence to the past that was never actually there. Look at the reaction of the Victorian elite to the 1851 census when they found - shock horror - that only fifty percent of the population went to church regularly!

Moral panics are perfectly normal too.

Muslim immigrants from our former colonies probably have more in common with the existing British population in some ways (shared history, cricket, a taste for whisky) than would be immigrants from Europe like Lyanna Stark who came over here, took one of our jobs, married one of our men etc etc.

No one should get too excited about a video posted on youtube by people who even failed to get arrested. This is below the level of the Virginia Flaggers. If you find yourself getting over excited about this and demographics then remember that way Utoya lies. Overheated reactions are the problem not day to day life.

Besides which Britain is an island. Everybody is descended from immigrants. The only difference is how long ago they arrived. As Defoe put it in his true born Englishman:

A true-born Englishman's a contradiction,

In speech an irony, in fact a fiction;

A banter made to be a test of fools,

Which those that use it justly ridicules;

A metaphor invented to express

A man akin to all the universe.

...

The Pict has made 'em sour, the Dane morose;

False from the Scot, and from the Norman worse.

What honesty they have, the Saxons gave them,

And that, now they grow old, begins to leave them...:laugh:

Since we survived the influx of the wild Irish with their catholic ways I suspect we'll muddle on.

[Hereward]

Britain's stance towards Israel is pretty supportive, though not uncritical. That's been broadly consistent for decades and is certainly an improvement in the state of relations to that which pertained in the early years of Israel, when the British Muslim population was, essentially, zero.

[Horza]

Fair enough.

If you want to understand current European attitudes to Israel, reflect on the fact that the 20th anniversary of the Oslo Accords is a few months away, by which time a far-right Israeli government coalition will very likely have (literally) poured concrete over the interred remains of the two-state solution.

[Free Northman]

I guess I look at the state of the humanity as a massive clash of world views, and that some are going to fall by the wayside, while others will triumph. We cannot predict which will end up on the trash heap and which will rule the world.

But I am not optimistic.

I don't see a utopian future. And I certainly don't see all humans being a Star Trek-type happy, science and rationalism based family. Far from it, I see it going in the opposite direction.

[MinDonner]

Well then, this thread should make you happy, by pointing out that so many of your fears are unfounded. Lay those honest concerns to rest!

[Lummel]

Let me ask this question, then, as it is an absolutely relevant issue to our time. How has this demographic change influenced Europe's stance towards Israel, for example, over the last two decades or so?

Would I be totally wrong in saying that it has hardened somewhat?

If anything it's grown softer. Back when the Intifada was going on and there was much more coverage of Israeli security forces on TV then there was much more criticism in the media.

But don't forget anti-Semitism has a rich tradition in Europe anyway. The sub-protocols of Zion stuff that is coming out of the Muslim world is a result of us writing that kind of nonsense in the first place. Lets give credit where it's due (to the Tsarist secret services). Not to mention that Britain has long standing close connections to various monarchical arab regimes which were it not for the holy American alliance would probably affect our policy towards Israel.

[Usotsuki]

Since we survived the influx of the wild Irish with their catholic ways I suspect we'll muddle on.

We wild Irish have not yet entirely given up on the ancient dream of returning you all to the disturbingly tight embrace of the Church of Rome.

Assuming I find a way to gather kindling in the snow, find my Zippo and can borrow fifty euros to pay for some petrol I shall recommence Operation Burn the Heretics if the trains aren't delayed again.

[Hereward]

I knew it, I bloody knew it.

[Lummel]

I guess I look at the state of the humanity as a massive clash of world views...

no world view is unchanging or internally consistent. Everything changes. "look ye upon my works and despair" says the half buried statue in the sand.

[MinDonner]

Heretic burning? On St Agnes' Day? Some people just have no sense of propriety any more. :crying:

[KAH]

I don't see a utopian future. And I certainly don't see all humans being a Star Trek-type happy, science and rationalism based family. Far from it, I see it going in the opposite direction.

Fair enough, but I'm willing to bet a pretty penny that the dystopia of 50 years is not going to be the dystopia you expect. It's going to be a completely different dystopia.

Forecasting more than 50 years in the future is going to be wrong for pretty much anything that has to do with people and isn't completely obvious, like the state of British cooking.

[Free Northman]

no world view is unchanging or internally consistent. Everything changes. "look ye upon my works and despair" says the half buried statue in the sand.

I agree with that. But it is only thanks to conservatives that the pace of change is not faster than it already is. As it is only due to liberals that it is not slower!

[MinDonner]

Yes, if only we were still in Ye Olde Tymes, when life was so much better for everyone. Sigh.

[Free Northman]

Yes, if only we were still in Ye Olde Tymes, when life was so much better for everyone. Sigh.

Look, it's not really relevant to this particular thread topic, but I genuinely yearn for the Old Times in general, yes. And I'm not even old.

Incidentally, it's something I've noted in the work of my favourite author - Dean Koontz - of late. He clearly is incorporating a theme in his novels that things used to be better in the old days. That society is falling apart at the seams today. And I fully agree with that.

Hence me being a conservative, I guess.

Anyway, back to this thread topic, which I joined for a few idle comments, but once again got drawn into way beyond my initial intention.

[Lyanna Stark]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the article merely disputes some claims that were made about the RATE of change.

Obviously. The rate is what is important, since the actual rate makes it absolutely impossible for "Eurabia" to happen in 50 years like people think.

Also, Europe is largely secular, which means that in 50 years, children and grandchildren of muslim immigrants will also most likely be mainly secular and have birthrates that have dropped to "standard", judging by how other immigrant groups have behaved in the past.

Hence the scaremongering is totally unecessary and has no basis in reality. Statistics can directly refute the claims made.

That page also lists the total fertility rate of Bosnia and Herzegovina, a European country with a Muslim population of roughly 45%. It's the lowest in the world.

Yep. Religion is hardly the only or even main "driver" in what makes people have loads and loads of children. Standard of living, health care, education etc. are often far more important factors. There is nothing pointing towards muslims intrinsically being against education or health care or anything like that. Nor that muslims as a group should be more against birth control than say, Catholics (and even in Catholic countries like Spain and Italy, people don't normally have 12 kids).

Look, it's not really relevant to this particular thread topic, but I genuinely yearn for the Old Times in general, yes. And I'm not even old.

You do know that a lot of people left Europe in the Old Times cos this was a big shithole to live in right?

[Free Northman]

Obviously. The rate is what is important, since the actual rate makes it absolutely impossible for "Eurabia" to happen in 50 years like people think.

Also, Europe is largely secular, which means that in 50 years, children and grandchildren of muslim immigrants will also most likely be mainly secular and have birthrates that have dropped to "standard", judging by how other immigrant groups have behaved in the past.

Hence the scaremongering is totally unecessary and has no basis in reality. Statistics can directly refute the claims made.

I'm happy that the 50 year claim has been dismissed. I accept that. I disagree on the notion that this refutes the entire argument. though.