‘Muslim Patrol’ vigilantes forcing ‘people to stop drinking and women to cover up’ in London

[The WaterDancer Knight]

Also look at all the ex-pats in Spain or the like complaining on Daily Mail comment pages about foreign people coming into this country not learning the language yet they live in Spain and know two words of Spanish.

Really ? In France most British expats try to speak French. I'm surprised it's different in Spain.

Well, that is democracy in action. To some extent I agree with you though - maintaining/expanding secularism (while maintaining freedom of religion) is, IMO, one of the keys to ensuring democracy lasts.

That's how we do things in France and we've been criticised a lot for it in this forum.

[mormont]

What if the two cultures are not compatible?

Presumably, where that's the case, these efforts will fail. But that's a limited subset of cases, and you were arguing about a general inclination to want to change things in the host country. I see no reason to demand that immigrants simply accept unquestioningly everything about their host country or to say they don't have the same rights as other citizens to try to enact change. (I don't say 'democratically enact change' because of course people do immigrate to non-democratic countries all the time.)

[Robin Of House Hill]

@TWDK

I think the French law 2004-228 of 15 March 2004 was a step in the right direction. But, then, I get called nasty things for saying things like that.

[Hereward]

Really ? In France most British expats try to speak French. I'm surprised it's different in Spain.

[generalisation] That's because most people who move to France do so because they are Francophiles. Most people who move to Spain do so because it's warm and cheap(ish). [/generalisation]

[Lyanna Stark]

@TWDK

I think the French law 2004-228 of 15 March 2004 was a step in the right direction. But, then, I get called nasty things for saying things like that.

Let me hazard a guess, the ban on religious symbols in schools?

Personally, I am not against that type of law, and we just had regulations passed that prevents religious ceremonies like prayers in schools. Interestingly, the strongest opposition against the ban on prayer and religious ceremony in schools did not come from muslims, but from the christian community and the church.

I'm strongly in favour of a secular school though, and think people should be free to wear what clothing they want in their spare time, and practise any religion they want in their spare time. Religion has no place in school though, apart from as a subject to be studied.

[Theda Baratheon]

I don't think religion has a place in School's either, but I do think anyone can believe in whatever the hell they want to believe in. My issue is not with religion, but with a lot of religious people. I think religion should be your own personal relationship to what you percieve as God or the Universe and if that brings you closer to like-minded people in a commuity environment then that is lovely, but the alienating of other beliefs and the one-upping 'MY REIGION IS BETTER THAN YOURS' is disgusting to me.

We should all tolerate that some people have a personal relationship with God/Universe, some people are still trying to figure out who the hell they are, what the meaning of their life is, what the world should be like, and some people don't believe in a Creator which is perfectly okay.

BUT WE MUST RESPECT EVERYONE'S VIEWS. There is NO point hating religions dissimilar to your own, or to be a die-hard atheist who is copletely anti-religion. They use the argument, religion causes wars, and it does. But it wouldn't if all people were simply fucking tolerant.

I also mean to point out we should be tolerant, not only of other religions, but of PEOPLE IN THOSE RELIGIONS.

Whether you are black or white, or gay or transgender, pansexual, bisexual it does not matter. You are a human being and you can have whatever relationship with God/Universe that makes you happy/that you believe in. You can also have no relationship to God/Universe but I wish so badly that people would view others as human beings. If we can respect other human beings and view them as equal to ourselves then we can work towards respecting the fact that everyone has their own individual beliefs and their should be no alienating of human being and what their relationship to the Universe is.

[Robin Of House Hill]

Presumably, where that's the case, these efforts will fail. But that's a limited subset of cases, and you were arguing about a general inclination to want to change things in the host country. I see no reason to demand that immigrants simply accept unquestioningly everything about their host country or to say they don't have the same rights as other citizens to try to enact change. (I don't say 'democratically enact change' because of course people do immigrate to non-democratic countries all the time.)

I think we are discussing the issue on different levels. Hypothetical. If I move to your country, I do not believe I have the moral or philosophical right, to foment unwanted change. You have far more invested in your country than I do.

[Simadhor_saan]

[generalisation] That's because most people who move to France do so because they are Francophiles. Most people who move to Spain do so because it's warm and cheap(ish). [/generalisation]

yeah it is a total generalisation but it does seem to be the case.

[Spockydog]

I don't think religion has a place in School's...

Neither does your apostrophe. ;)

[mormont]

I think we are discussing the issue on different levels. Hypothetical. If I move to your country, I do not believe I have the moral or philosophical right, to foment unwanted change.

And how are we to define 'unwanted' change? Do immigrants have no right to work towards changes in their adopted country? I have a good friend of joint US and Brazilian extraction who has become an immigrant to the UK. She is looking forward to casting a vote for Scottish independence from the rest of the UK, a cause in which she believes passionately. Should she not participate in this vote, because she's an immigrant and hasn't got enough 'invested' in my country (whatever that means)? Is it immoral for her to do so? Does she lack the 'philosophical right' to vote in an election at all? How many generations should it be until her descendants get this right?

[Theda Baratheon]

Neither does your apostrophe. ;)

Ok.

[Hereward]

And how are we to define 'unwanted' change? Do immigrants have no right to work towards changes in their adopted country? I have a good friend of joint US and Brazilian extraction who has become an immigrant to the UK. She is looking forward to casting a vote for Scottish independence from the rest of the UK, a cause in which she believes passionately. Should she not participate in this vote, because she's an immigrant and hasn't got enough 'invested' in my country (whatever that means)? Is it immoral for her to do so? Does she lack the 'philosophical right' to vote in an election at all? How many generations should it be until her descendants get this right?

I agree with your point, in theory, but I have to say that, in practice, this particular example makes me slightly uncomfortable. It does seem odd to move to a country and quickly become passionate about breaking it up, while other members of the union to be broken up have no say.

[The Great Walrus]

And how are we to define 'unwanted' change? Do immigrants have no right to work towards changes in their adopted country? I have a good friend of joint US and Brazilian extraction who has become an immigrant to the UK. She is looking forward to casting a vote for Scottish independence from the rest of the UK, a cause in which she believes passionately. Should she not participate in this vote, because she's an immigrant and hasn't got enough 'invested' in my country (whatever that means)? Is it immoral for her to do so? Does she lack the 'philosophical right' to vote in an election at all? How many generations should it be until her descendants get this right?

There's still a Scottish independence movment? Didn't know that...

[A wilding]

I have a good friend of joint US and Brazilian extraction who has become an immigrant to the UK. She is looking forward to casting a vote for Scottish independence from the rest of the UK, a cause in which she believes passionately.

If she is planning to vote for independence, she definitely should not be voting.

(Bloody immigrants, trying to steal Scotland off us :tantrum: .)

[Robin Of House Hill]

And how are we to define 'unwanted' change? Do immigrants have no right to work towards changes in their adopted country? I have a good friend of joint US and Brazilian extraction who has become an immigrant to the UK. She is looking forward to casting a vote for Scottish independence from the rest of the UK, a cause in which she believes passionately. Should she not participate in this vote, because she's an immigrant and hasn't got enough 'invested' in my country (whatever that means)? Is it immoral for her to do so? Does she lack the 'philosophical right' to vote in an election at all? How many generations should it be until her descendants get this right?

I'm confused. You said immigrant, rather than citizen or subject, but I'll assume she has a legal right to vote. Nothing wrong with that. I would, however, think it morally wrong for someone from Mexico, to move of the US (legally) and begin agitating to make Spanish, the official language.

[The Iceman of the North]

I agree with your point, in theory, but I have to say that, in practice, this particular example makes me slightly uncomfortable. It does seem odd to move to a country with the express intention of aiming to break it up, while other members of the union to be broken up have no say.

Eh, did mormie claim that she moved to Scotland just to vote for independence?

I'm confused. You said immigrant, rather than citizen or subject, but I'll assume she has a legal right to vote. Nothing wrong with that. I would, however, think it morally wrong for someone from Mexico, to move of the US (legally) and begin agitating to make Spanish, the official language.

Are there really anyone who agitates for making Spanish the official language in the US? I know there are some who agitates for making English the official language, but this is the first I've heard of anyone agitating for Spanish.

[Spockydog]

I agree with your point, in theory, but I have to say that, in practice, this particular example makes me slightly uncomfortable. It does seem odd to move to a country with the express intention of aiming to break it up, while other members of the union to be broken up have no say.

Indeed. I was born in Glasgow. I can trace my Scottish ancestry all the way back to the 17th century. Yet because I live and work in London, I'm to be excluded from the referendum.

[Hereward]

No, I'll edit for purposes of terminological exactitude .

[Robin Of House Hill]

Wait a minute. I'm confused. I saw Braveheart. Didn't some Australian guy win Scotland's independence a long time ago?

[Merentha]

I'm confused. You said immigrant, rather than citizen or subject, but I'll assume she has a legal right to vote. Nothing wrong with that. I would, however, think it morally wrong for someone from Mexico, to move of the US (legally) and begin agitating to make Spanish, the official language.

Why? What makes that morally wrong, rather than just merely impractical?