The Princess and the Queen [SPOILERS]

[Anath]

Ok I think I've gotten a little confused by the change in first husband, and reveal of second husband.

Is this what you're saying?:

Rhaenyra and Husband 1 (son of one of the era's more interesting people) have 3 sons, all of whom die during the Dance.

Rhaenyra and Husband 2 (UberTarg) have Aegon III and Viserys II, who are boys during the war.

Yes.

That said, where does GRRM state that Rhaenyra had 3 sons with her first husband, and where does he say they died fighting? I have the entirety of So Spake Martin in a doc but maybe I missed that somehow.

I read it on these boards. I think it was Ran who said it.

20 years is too big a gap though. Rhaenyra was unmarried in 111, and there's only 18 years between then and the time the war starts, and she herself dies in the first year of the war.

Of course. I am not saying that the gap was 20 years. We don't know how big it was. I was only saying that it was entirely possible for Aegon to be a boy and his half-brothers to be men.

We know Viserys II was Aegon III's younger brother, and since he was in his fifties when he became king he had to have been born no later than 120. So Aegon III himself could be born no later than 119ish. Looks like 8 years is the absolute max difference in years, with 6-7 being more likely.

If we accept that Rhaenyra was very young at the tournament, then yes. It's possible that she was married to her first husband by that time.

[History of Westeros]

I read it on these boards. I think it was Ran who said it.

Hmm ok, maybe it'll turn up or Ran will verify.

If we accept that Rhaenyra was very young at the tournament, then yes. It's possible that she was married to her first husband by that time.

Pretty much no chance she was married in that tourney given that Criston Cole wore her favor.

[Anath]

Pretty much no chance she was married in that tourney given that Criston Cole wore her favor.

She was the Crown Princess. She already had a faction. Many of her major supporters might have been wearing her favor if her husband didn't participate. After all, the Queen also had champions and she certainly was married then.

[History of Westeros]

She was the Crown Princess. She already had a faction. Many of her major supporters might have been wearing her favor if her husband didn't participate. After all, the Queen also had champions and she certainly was married then.

Yeah you're right, favors are often not romantic in any way. I looked through all the books for examples but didn't think to check one of the most obvious spots: D&E.

"Lord Ashford was staging this tourney to celebrate his daughter’s thirteenth nameday. The fair maid would sit by her father’s side as the reigning Queen of Love and Beauty. Five champions wearing her favors would defend her."

As we theorized much earlier, rumors that those two had any kind of relationship may have been exaggerated.

But I suppose whether or not she was married at the tourney doesn't change (a year or so) our model at this point, unless we find out she already had a kid by 111. I suppose the excerpt doesn't eliminate that possibility.

[Anath]

With time, GRRM made so many changes in the original Dance of the Dragons that we'll just have to wait and see. In the beginning, Aegon was a year younger than his sister. Then it became 10 years. It's just an inkling of mine but the tournament might indicate that the gap was even bigger. At the tournament, Rhaenyra dressed "dramatically". Usually, in Middle Ages young unmarried women dressed modestly, emphasizing their purity. The way Rhaenyra was descrived - dramatically dressed, with champions of her own - shows that she was already turning into a force, so it's not likely that she was a young girl then. To me, that describes a young woman who's starting to gather her forces and that would include her husband's formidable family.

Earlier in the thread, Ran mentioned that Rhaenyra's first husband had changed. I'll have to go back and see whether the number of her sons did.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

I've just noticed that the dates are marked "AC" (Aegon's Conquest presumably) rather than "AL." Is this new to anyone else or have I forgotten something?

[Veltigar]

I've just noticed that the dates are marked "AC" (Aegon's Conquest presumably) rather than "AL." Is this new to anyone else or have I forgotten something?

It was decided to make AC the official dating mechanism. I believe the only place Aegon's Landing is clearly used to date anything in a systematic way is the AGoT appendix, and information from later novels -- such as the fact that Aegon in fact dated his reign from his crowning in Oldtown -- supercedes it. So Aegon's crowning is AC 1.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Oh thanks.

[Anath]

That's a really interesting way to be introduced. There was actually a thread recently (well, after the date of your post) asking if anyone was first introduced to ASoIaF through Dunk and Egg, but no one with that experience turned up there.

I was introduced to ASoIaF this way and I literally jumped at A Clash of Kings when the history of the Targaryen dynasty was revealed. And since the only novella translated here was The Hedge Knight, in Legends, I decided to make a present to a friend who I turned into a fellow fan: I found some third-language versions of the next novellas for her (she doesn't speak English). As a result, she started ringing me with questions like: is this Maester Aemon's brother? Is this the same castle where Aegon V burned to death? (Since names and places can sound quite differently in different languages, she wanted to be sure). It was... interesting.

[Old-Growth]

Aegon doesn't have to be real to ride a dragon. Aegon is a Blackfyre and therefore has Targaryen/Valyrian blood.

Or he is Joe random Lyseni, but deriving from a old Lysene house and thus having sufficient Valyrian blood. I am yet to be persuaded of the Blackfyre theory. Also, were the Blackfyre theory correct, Aegon would be descended through the female line and might not have enough Valyrian ancestry to have the right stuff to bond with a dragon. We will, I suppose, have to wait for the world book on some of this.

[Old-Growth]

That said, where does GRRM state that Rhaenyra had 3 sons with her first husband, and where does he say they died fighting? I have the entirety of So Spake Martin in a doc but maybe I missed that somehow.

Do you have the capability to search that doc? Unless something has changed recently, there is no search function for the SSM collection on westeros.org, the which I find very frustrating. I have found various useful bits only not to be able to find them again when I would like to quote one for a discussion in the forum.

I beseeched Ran for such a thing in a post months ago, but got no answer. One could use the publicly available "htdig" program, provided that one used the file exclusion feature to avoid files that aren't text/html files and such in forming the index.

[History of Westeros]

Do you have the capability to search that doc? Unless something has changed recently, there is no search function for the SSM collection on westeros.org, the which I find very frustrating. I have found various useful bits only not to be able to find them again when I would like to quote one for a discussion in the forum.

I beseeched Ran for such a thing in a post months ago, but got no answer. One could use the publicly available "htdig" program, provided that one used the file exclusion feature to avoid files that aren't text/html files and such in forming the index.

Built a doc from scratch, copying and pasting from each page on westeros.org, (but not including the interviews).

[Old-Growth]

Built a doc from scratch, copying and pasting from each page on westeros.org, (but not including the interviews).

That will be a bit tricky for me, alas, as I have been reading/posting from a cell phone. It just gets frustrating when, for example, I am reasonably sure that our author said that a major theme of the series is "the restoration of a dynasty" and I cannot find the SSM again. I have already alluded to that several times in posts in the last few months, but feel a bit silly assuring others that said quote exists when I cannot point to it.

[Ran]

Google.com

Search: site:westeros.org/Citadel/SSM <search phrases>

:)

[Old-Growth]

UGoogle.com

Search: site:westeros.org/Citadel/SSM <search phrases>

:)

I will give it a try: thanks Ran.

[Ran]

And FWIW, that phrase doesn't appear in the SSM, or anything like it. That said, the SSM only contains direct text of certain things. Possibly you saw it in one of the linked interviews instead.

[Veltigar]

Or he is Joe random Lyseni, but deriving from a old Lysene house and thus having sufficient Valyrian blood. I am yet to be persuaded of the Blackfyre theory. Also, were the Blackfyre theory correct, Aegon would be descended through the female line and might not have enough Valyrian ancestry to have the right stuff to bond with a dragon. We will, I suppose, have to wait for the world book on some of this.

Faegon probably has both Blackfyre and Brightflame heritage (or at least that's the theory I adhere to).

[History of Westeros]

And FWIW, that phrase doesn't appear in the SSM, or anything like it. That said, the SSM only contains direct text of certain things. Possibly you saw it in one of the linked interviews instead.

If anyone finds that, please post it. I suppose we'll know in 4 months either way though!

[Lord Varys]

The count of Rhaenyra's three grown-up sons who died fighting in the Dance is from the RPG sourcebook which also identified her first husband as Lord Lyonel Strong of Harrenhal. This is no longer the case, we know as much, and theoretically the grown-up sons could be off the table as well. But they aren't, that much is confirmed in the review of 'The Princess and the Queen' on tor.com. Rhaenyra had trouble with her sons who were not heeding her advice, indicating that they were either complete grown-ups or in their late teens. In Westeros you reach adulthood at 16 years, so it's my guess that her youngest son of her first husband were around that age when the Dance began, and her eldest about 20.

Aegon III and Viserys II both apparently are from the Über-Targaryen, her second husband, at least if the count of the sons still stands (three sons from the first husband who all die, make Aegon and Viserys sons of her second husband).

The hint that the Über-Targaryen did survive the Dance I got from Ran in this very thread. He indicated that this guy did stuff after the Dance, which strongly indicates that he has to survive it. My guess is that he continued to lead Rhaenyra's faction after her death in Aegon's III name (who may have become Aegon's II hostage), and is the one who is responsible for Aegon's II demise and the end of the war. This could explain how the Targaryen dynasty survived the Dance. As far as we know no Targaryen but Aegon III, Viserys II, and (one of) Aegon's II daughters survived the war. All of them were minors.

Afterwards the Über-Targaryen may have taken one of the last big Targaryen dragons to explore Essos and the Far East, never (or only late in his life) to return to Westeros. If GRRM did not change anything, a Lord Velaryon, the father of Aegon's III second queen served as his Regent after the Dance.

The age gap between Rhaenyra's elder and younger sons is easily explained. She only married to Über-Targaryen after her first husband died. Thinking about the whole thing - the trouble Rhaenyra had with her sons could have something to do with issues between her son(s), and Aegon II, especially if they were about the same age.

It could make sense for Viserys II to be born around 120. He would then be nine years old, when the Dance began, and Aegon III could be 12-13 when he watched his mother to be devoured by Aegon's II dragon. I'd prefer it if he had been somewhat younger, but you still should get a decent trauma at this age.

But the age gap between Rhaenyra and Aegon may indeed be bigger than 10 years. The whole bitch war thing between Rhaenyra and Alicent makes much more sense if they were about the same age, perhaps Alicent was 2-5 years older than Rhaenyra, but they should be of the same generation, with Alicent much closer to Rhaenyra in age than to Viserys.

It has been said that Rhaenyra had brothers and sisters from her mother who all died, so Viserys was most likely married to the Arryn queen quite a long time, which in turn would make him a man of middle age when he ascended the Iron Throne in 103. Despite the fact that Viserys may have been poisoned, the story does seem to indicate that he was a sickly old man upon his death, so we should assume he lived at least in his sixties, perhaps even into his seventies.

Aegon II may have married before the Dance. One of his daughters survived and was married to Aegon III. If Aegon was already in his teens when he succeeded Rhaenyra, I don't see him marrying a babe. On the other hand, this fact could explain why they had no children.

Any idea who this Princess Rhaenys Targaryen, 'The Queen Who Never Was' may turn out to be? One of Rhaenyra's half-sisters? Her daughter? Aegon's daughter? Viserys' sister? Or a Targaryen princess from a cadet branch? And do you read this as if Baela Targaryen is the teenaged dragon-rider who is called Nettles, or is that another person, perhaps one of those bastard dragonriders (i.e. as the also mentioned seer Alys Rivers)? I assume that Baela and Nettles are not one and the same.

I'm still not sure if there was ever anything romantic/sexual between Naerys and Aemon, and I very much doubt that Aemon joined the Kingsguard to be close to her. He was her brother, a Targaryen prince himself, he could visit her as often as he liked. And what we know about him also indicates that he was really into all this chivalry stuff.

And Bonifer Hasty never joined the KG, by the way, although at least Selmy assumes he and Rhaella never consummated their relationship. Given Bonifer's piety this may very well be the case. But both Rhaenyra and Criston Cole don't strike me as particularly pious, especially Rhaenyra may have been the type of woman who took what she wanted.

And we also don't yet know if these two were about the same age. If Rhaenyra was considerably older than Aegon, she could have been about 20 in 111. Which makes sense to me, since she does appear to be in her late thirties, perhaps even about 40 on her portrait which depicts her at the time of the Dance.

As to Aegon's II queen: Perhaps he married a Baratheon - perhaps even a Baratheon daughter with quite a bit of Targaryen blood? From ADwD we know that Storm's End fought for Aegon, and since the Worldbook indicated the great friendship between Aegon and Orys the ties between Targaryen and Baratheon may have been a lot closer than we thought. Until Robert's time at least.

On the Hightowers:

It's quite likely that Ser Otto and Alicent did what ever they did with the silent approval/directing of Lord Hightower, but did not get his full support when the Dance broke out. This could explain how they survived the war. I'm quite sure neither Otto nor Queen Dowager Alicent did survive it. If they were killed early in the war, and if the Hightowers then did not rush immediately to Aegon's aid, they may have distanced themselves far enough when the war ended...

On the identity of Rhaenyra's first husband:

I came up with a very convincing theory about Lord Lyonel (who also was supposed to be Viserys' Hand and that time) being a much older man and of Targaryen descent himself - Viserys would have married her to his Hand and relative to ensure that she would get the crown upon his death - but unfortunately the man died before he did). I still assume that he was an older man (explaining why he died so early during their marriage), and one who wielded considerable power and influence at court when he was chosen as Rhaenyra's husband. Considering that Rhaenyra may have been a woman who took what she wanted, it's easily possible that she married to strengthen her position while entertaining herself with handsome young knights. Since Rhaenyra was Viserys' only child for a long time, I'm quite sure he spoiled her for most of her life. After all, this may be the very reason why he never changed his will after marrying Alicent.

[Cruella]

Aegon III could be 12-13 when he watched his mother to be devoured by Aegon's II dragon. I'd prefer it if he had been somewhat younger, but you still should get a decent trauma at this age.

Ya think?