The Princess and the Queen [SPOILERS]

[Lost Melnibonean]

Discussing how much heritage it might take to be a dragon rider, based on new information that Targaryen blood might be necessary, makes a lot more sense and is much more fruitful than simply throwing about meaningless statements like "he wasn't a dragon".

I don't even know why you are bringing Viserys into this. Sure, he wasn't a noble Rhaegar or Baelor Breakspear, but Aegon II seems to have been a Viserys/Aerys/Aerion type Targaryen himself by all accounts and he didn't seem to have any problems controlling dragons. There is absolutely no textual basis for claiming Viserys couldn't have riden a dragon.

By all means, then go ahead. Do what you like. Really. It's a big forum. Here's what Martin wrote as Viserys died: "He was no dragon, Dany thought, curiously calm. Fire cannot kill a dragon." What I'm suggesting is the character's personality, not his Targness will de termine whether Martin puts him or her on a dragon. Apparently some Targ blood is necessary but I think it's more likely that it simply wasn't Quentyn's destiny to ride one of Martin's Dragons. I'd look at all of the likely Targs and think about whether the author wants each on a dragon rather than trying to figure out how much Targ blood they have, at which you can only guess anyway. But like I said, I'm not trying to stop you or put you down.

[MRHD]

Except that Egg married "for love", so probably not another Targ, his father was half-Dornish and his mother's lineage is unknown, so he himself was far from "pure" and as a consequence the Baratheons have a far more diluted blood than you suggest. As, indeed do/did Rhaegar, Viserys and Dany.

IMHO, in such circumstances, who does or doesn't inherit dragon-bonding ability is an unpredictable crapshoot - precisely the situation that incest was supposed to prevent.

That's a good point about Egg, and if Maeker didn't marry a Targ/Valryian then even the main blood line is seriously diluted and it may very well leave the Baratheons with no more Targaryen blood than the Martells.

I'm not sure if I want to get into a discussion of a possible dragon bonding gene or anything like that (not that you suggested it), but I can certainly accept the notion that the less pure the bloodline is the more of a crapshoot having the ability becomes.

[Hardstone]

Wasn't Jaehaerys I the grandfather of Viserys I? Has this been altered now for the story?

"The ancient master of coin, who had served King Viserys for his entire reign, and his father Jaehaerys the Old King before him. The ancient master of coin, who had served King Viserys for his entire reign, and his father Jaehaerys the Old King before him..."

[Ran]

It's an error.

[MRHD]

Wasn't Jaehaerys I the grandfather of Viserys I? Has this been altered now for the story?

"The ancient master of coin, who had served King Viserys for his entire reign, and his father Jaehaerys the Old King before him. The ancient master of coin, who had served King Viserys for his entire reign, and his father Jaehaerys the Old King before him..."

Wow great catch, I don't know how I missed that. Yes, up until now Viserys I was Jaehaerys I's grandson (I had always assumed Jaeherys reigned so long that he had simply managed to outlive his son, kind of like the Walder-Stevron Frey situation), but this definitely reworks the family tree.

[Hardstone]

Phew! Thanks Ran.

I've always wanted to know the identity of the unfortunate Targaryen in the middle.

[Rooghar Targaryen]

K so if the Princess and the Queen is Dance of the Dragons 1.0 and and Dany and Aegon are Dance of the Dragons 2.0, for fun lets see if we can assign new characters for the roles of of the original Dance of the Dragons.

Princess Rhaenyra: Dany

----Female princess that seems to have the best claim and from the review seems like the less antagonistic of the two main "Targaryens." Warrior Queen

Aegon II: (f)Aegon

----Male prince that seems to be kind of a puppet used by his Mother and grandfather, name is Aegon.

Queen Alicent Hightower: Illyrio

----Maybe (f)Aegon's father as opposed to mother and it seems like he is pulling a lot of strings in the background to get (f)Aegon in a position to challenge for the throne

Ser Otto Hightower: Jon Connington

----Working with Illyrio to get (f)Aegon on the throne, Hand of the King to the True King...

Lord Lyman Beesbury: Barriston Selmy???

----Speaks on behalf of Rhaenyra, seems to be on her side

Baela Targaryen "Nettles": Jon Snow??

----A dragon rider that seems to be important

Alys Rivers, a seer: Bran Stark??

----A seer that seems to be important

[Ran]

Phew! Thanks Ran.

I've always wanted to know the identity of the unfortunate Targaryen in the middle.

TWoIaF shall have a fair bit to say about the sons and daughters of the Old King and Good Queen Alysanne.

[History of Westeros]

New information from the excerpt seems to refute that notion:

Beyond that though, there was also the Vulture King in Dorne, during Daeron II's reign.

I was speaking of the Ironborn only.

[History of Westeros]

Really, Aenys I married not one of his sisters? I never read about that one? Do you know where Ran let that slip? This is confusing since Aegon and sisters surely should have had some daughters... And both Jaehaerys and Alysanne do have the Valyrian looks.

That would definitely be odd.

There were some Lords of Dragonstone who ruled as a couple rather than with the male being the guy who called the shots. That's how it was with Jaehaerys/Alysanne and Aegon and sisters. Apparently, you were technically head of the house as male, but only if you married your eldest sister (Aegon was supposed to marry only Visenya). There was Lady of Dragonstone between Aenar and Aegon I, that much is true, but it's also obvious that the Targaryen girls mentioned during this era shared the power with their brother-husbands.

It does seem like tradition mandated marriage to the eldest sister, but it's hard to imagine a male not wielding full power simply because there was no sister available.

I do not see this Lady of Dragonstone between Aenar and Aegon I. It's not on the family tree, where do we hear about her?

Agree that the Targaryen girls shared power and seemed to have a lot of influence. We have many examples of this.

And by the way, there is also a hint that there was Dance of Dragons 0.0. or something like that during the generation of Aegon's father Aelix. There are many Targaryens mentioned during this generation, but only Aelix's line continues, and Aenar brought five dragons from Valyria of which only Balerion survived (Vhagar and Meraxes were hatched on Dragonstone).

(Aegon's father was Aerion, not Aelix). There are only 3 males and one implied/unnamed female. That's not really "many Targaryens". The 4 dead dragons is interesting, but assuming a civil war is a huge stretch when there are plenty of other possibilities. The Century of Blood could've easily accounted for the dead dragons, and since (4?) of those 5 dragons were imports, at least one or two could've been old. That said, I certainly agree a civil war is possible.

Dragonbinder could be a magical relic involved in the first binding of the dragons to one's blood, as well as a tool which only works with a certain type of blood. If Victarion succeeds with his blood on Dragonbinder, then Rhaegal and Meraxes may indeed only answer to Greyjoy blood in the future, and Euron Greyjoy should be our main suspect for a dragonrider.

Very clever/interesting! However Moqorro seems pro-Dany so I find it hard to believe that he would do something for Vic/Euron that is so contrary to Dany's best interests. Then again, just because Moqorro can read the glyphs on the side of the horn doesn't mean he has any clue as to how it truly works.

[History of Westeros]

Of note as well is that the maester writing this excerpt uses the term "AC" (Aegon's Conquest?). As far as I know we've never seen that term, it's always been "AL" (Aegon's Landing). If we take those terms literally they are clearly referring to different things. One is perhaps referring to the date at which Aegon was crowned by the High Septon in Oldtown (or the day he entered Oldtown, which may be the same day), the other refers to the date he landed with his army at what is now King's Landing.

We should not necessarily assume that those two are the same. In the real world, scholars argue about "starting dates" and there are examples of scholarly texts dating things entirely different based on differing sources or academic disagreements. Much of these are lost on the reader and can cause confusion, even if you are a scholar.

GRRM is undoubtedly aware of this, and he could be playing with these terms to give himself more leeway on ages and dates. As we know, he hates keeping track of that stuff. (maybe not a ton of leeway, like a year or so, but still that's noteworthy).

The point of all this is to say: we might shouldn't take these dates too literally. Some of the confusion with Aegon/Rhaenyra/others ages may partially rest on this potential disparity.

[Ran]

It was decided to make AC the official dating mechanism. I believe the only place Aegon's Landing is clearly used to date anything in a systematic way is the AGoT appendix, and information from later novels -- such as the fact that Aegon in fact dated his reign from his crowning in Oldtown -- supercedes it. So Aegon's crowning is AC 1.

[AzureOwl]

BTW, it is rather interesting that the Reach nobility was so often involved in instigating massive civil wars. We knew about the Blackfyre rebellion, of course, but now we have Dance of the Dragons too and, in the series itself, their role in the War of Five Kings. These "greens" are much more troublesome and dangerous than previously suspected.

That may be attributable to the relative youth of the house acting as Lords Paramount. One gets the impression that the Tyrells didn't have all that much of a grip on the region. That plus insecurity and overcompensating on the part of the Tyrell could explain much.

The Hightowers must have been hugely lucky to survive the aftermath of the Dance and Aegon III's reign.

That would depend on how the war ended. If it was a negotiated peace accord after Aegon II died, then pardons for the houses involved might've been part of the terms.

This is likely the reason why they're so uninvolved in the larger affairs of the realm in later centuries. They learned their lesson and kept their heads down, so to speak.

Another possibility is related to the fact that Queen Alicent's father was Ser Otto Hightower. Otto couldn't have been too far removed from the sitting Lord Hightower family-wise, or his daughter wouldn't have been able to marry the king, but the fact that he wasn't Lord Hightower himself means that he and his immediate family could be annihilated without extinguishing House Hightower itself.

[History of Westeros]

It was decided to make AC the official dating mechanism. I believe the only place Aegon's Landing is clearly used to date anything in a systematic way is the AGoT appendix, and information from later novels -- such as the fact that Aegon in fact dated his reign from his crowning in Oldtown -- supercedes it. So Aegon's crowning is AC 1.

Ok cool, thanks for the clarification. Should we read all the wiki pages etc as AC from now on?

[Ran]

Yep.

[The hairy bear]

Ran,

I'm confused now. When in the AGOT appendixes we were told that Maegor reigned from 42 to 48 AL, does it mean that he reigned 40 to 46 AC? Or it's just that the Targaryen section suffers yet another modification and we should assume that all the dates given are AC instead of AL?

[Muggle]

Just saw on NAB. Very cool, but not gonna lie ... Disappointed its not Dunk and Egg. :(.

i think the next dunk and egg will come out after winds of winter cause it will hold spoiler content

[Lost Melnibonean]

It was decided to make AC the official dating mechanism. I believe the only place Aegon's Landing is clearly used to date anything in a systematic way is the AGoT appendix, and information from later novels -- such as the fact that Aegon in fact dated his reign from his crowning in Oldtown -- supercedes it. So Aegon's crowning is AC 1.

Gee wiz. More freaking math...

[Ran]

Yeah, all AL references in the appendix should be read as AC. Westeros counts the reigns of the Targaryens from the time of Aegon's crowning, the completion of his conquest, and not from the time of his landing.

[History of Westeros]

Gee wiz. More freaking math...

No, unless I'm misunderstanding this is just a change in terms.