The Princess and the Queen [SPOILERS]

[King of Winters]

Yea it feels a bit fuzzy

How can you say it feels a bit fuzzy!?

It's the best dragon has three heads theory I've seen.

[Veltigar]

Funny, from my perspective Tyrion not becoming a dragon rider is seeming more likely. ;)

:cheers: :agree:

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

How can you say it feels a bit fuzzy!?

It's the best dragon has three heads theory I've seen.

I know its a good theory, with 3 personalities but I dont know I just can't swallow it fully

[illrede]

Seeing as Rhaenyra is "painted" as more of a warrior, it makes sense, to me now anyway, that she was eaten by Aegon's dragon. As the look she has now (not a warrior queen) made me think why she'd be on a battlefield, but now she's described as a warrior I can see her now being eaten by Aegon's dragon after being defeated on her own dragon maybe.

It may be more of a case of I. Can you ride a Dragon?, II. Are you a queen?

She may not have belonged on a battlefield in any way otherwise, but tough noogies for her.

[Dr. Pepper]

I am so excited for this!

But wait: GRRM said that the dragonriders need not be Targaryen in ASOIAF, but in the Dance of the Dragons, both of the Targaryen faction look for people with Targaryen blood, as only people with Targ blood can bond with the dragons.

I'm confused.

The reviewer is fallible. She makes a couple of (albeit, minor) innaccurate remarks. It may be that the author of the review simply doesn't know that Targaryens were not the only dragonlord family to ever exist.

But I think what's more likely is that this period represented the height of Targaryen apotheosis. There were apparently squabbles about which sibling had more Targaryen blood and then searches for others with Targ blood, including bastards. Being the only surviving dragonlord family of Valyria, it's quite likely they didn't want anyone to know that dragons could be tamed through regular magical means and decided it best if everyone thought they copulated with dragons long ago so as to have the blood of the dragon special gene.

[Lord Varys]

Really, Aenys I married not one of his sisters? I never read about that one? Do you know where Ran let that slip? This is confusing since Aegon and sisters surely should have had some daughters... And both Jaehaerys and Alysanne do have the Valyrian looks.

There were some Lords of Dragonstone who ruled as a couple rather than with the male being the guy who called the shots. That's how it was with Jaehaerys/Alysanne and Aegon and sisters. Apparently, you were technically head of the house as male, but only if you married your eldest sister (Aegon was supposed to marry only Visenya). There was Lady of Dragonstone between Aenar and Aegon I, that much is true, but it's also obvious that the Targaryen girls mentioned during this era shared the power with their brother-husbands.

And by the way, there is also a hint that there was Dance of Dragons 0.0. or something like that during the generation of Aegon's father Aelix. There are many Targaryens mentioned during this generation, but only Aelix's line continues, and Aenar brought five dragons from Valyria of which only Balerion survived (Vhagar and Meraxes were hatched on Dragonstone).

Dragonbinder could be a magical relic involved in the first binding of the dragons to one's blood, as well as a tool which only works with a certain type of blood. If Victarion succeeds with his blood on Dragonbinder, then Rhaegal and Meraxes may indeed only answer to Greyjoy blood in the future, and Euron Greyjoy should be our main suspect for a dragonrider.

[Rooghar Targaryen]

"Since dragons will only accept and bond with riders of Targaryen blood, the story chronicles the search for bastard-born “dragonseeds” to join the fray (with mixed results)—a subplot which clearly holds some potential relevance for Daenerys and her trio of dragons as events continue to unfold in the novels…"

Maybe you have to have a certain amount of Targaryen blood to be able to have dragon-binding abilities. Quentyn's Targaryen blood was pretty watered down, Daenarys I was married to Maron Martell in 197 AL. So Quentyn might be like 3 or 4 generations removed from Targaryen blood.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Tyrion, Jamie & Cersei being anybody's children other than Tywin's spoils a lot of the story.

But how about Brown Ben? Tyrion pointed out in Dance that he had more than a drop of Targ blood. Have any of tje drahons liked anybody the way Viserion liked Brown Ben. The story seems set up to allow Brown Ben to return to Dany's good graces. And the reviewer hints at a subplot of finding suitable riders with badtard blood.

We already have Dany/Drogo. How about Brown Ben/Viserion & Aegon/Rhaegal, with Dany vs. Aegon as Dance II? Barristan noted that Rhaegal was far more dangerous than Viserys.

(Jon doesn't need any dragon to fight the Great Other. He's got Ghost, a burning sword, armor of black ice & Tormund's member. A fourth chin would ne nice though...)

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

"Since dragons will only accept and bond with riders of Targaryen blood, the story chronicles the search for bastard-born “dragonseeds” to join the fray (with mixed results)—a subplot which clearly holds some potential relevance for Daenerys and her trio of dragons as events continue to unfold in the novels…"

Maybe you have to have a certain amount of Targaryen blood to be able to have dragon-binding abilities. Quentyn's Targaryen blood was pretty watered down, Daenarys I was married to Maron Martell in 197 AL. So Quentyn might be like 3 or 4 generations removed from Targaryen blood.

how about Brown Ben Plumm?

[Dr. Pepper]

Really, Aenys I married not one of his sisters? I never read about that one? Do you know where Ran let that slip? This is confusing since Aegon and sisters surely should have had some daughters... And both Jaehaerys and Alysanne do have the Valyrian looks.

Alysanne had blue eyes. I always took that to mean that Aenys I was not married to a sister, or if a polygamists, married to one sister and someone else.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Alysanne had blue eyes. I always took that to mean that Aenys I was not married to a sister, or if a polygamists, married to one sister and someone else.

I saw somewhere he married a hightower?

[MRHD]

Well, if we want to look for non-Targs with Targaryen blood for potential dragon riders:

Stannis: 1/4 Targaryen blood

Shireen, Gendry, Edric Storm, Mia Stone, any other living bastards of Robert: 1/8 Targaryen blood

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Alysanne had blue eyes. I always took that to mean that Aenys I was not married to a sister, or if a polygamists, married to one sister and someone else.

Her her may also have not been silver, since the wiki states she had white hair in her old age

[The hairy bear]

Really, Aenys I married not one of his sisters? I never read about that one? Do you know where Ran let that slip? This is confusing since Aegon and sisters surely should have had some daughters... And both Jaehaerys and Alysanne do have the Valyrian looks.

The thread seems to have been deleted, but fortunately I copied it in my hard drive:

Only Viserys claims that the Targaryens never married outside of the family, and we know how trustworthy he was. Ample evidence shows that the Targaryens had a propensity for marrying within the family, but it was not an absolute rule.

I've given a cursory look to a draft of the Targaryen family tree, and at least as of the time of George creating it, there were at least 14 non-Targaryen queens during the rule of the Targaryen dynasty (that number falls by about half a dozen if you don't count Maegor the Cruel's many wives.) If we count Rhaenyra as a ruling queen, she had a non-Targaryen consort (Lord Strong) for her first husband.

As you see it's very old, with Lyonel Strong still being Rhaenyra's wife, so it may have changed by now. But if it still stands, it means that there were more non-Targaryen consorts (14) than Targaryen consorts (I count 12).

Now that we are at it, and to go back to topic, I've also found Ran's quote when he announced Lyonel's "disappearance":

Rhaenyra's second husband is probably the most remarkable, and maybe infuriating as well, Targaryen who ever lived since Aegon and his sisters. I suppose you'd call him an adventurer. That said, I'm not strictly sure that "The Princess and the Queen" will do him justice. You kind of need to know a bit about him from before and after the point which this novella will cover to really get the full measure of the man. Rhaenyra's first husband has changed, BTW. He's the son of another rather remarkable person of the era, instead of Strong. Though you'll be hearing plenty about the Strongs, come to think of it.

Rhaenyra's husband is very intriguing. Also, I'm wondering wether he'll survive he war. Bridget's review suggest that "The Princess and the Queen" will cover the entire war, and Ran say's that's something to be told about him "after the point which this novella will cover"...

[Four-Eyed Crow]

that would be the point, yeah? Her brothers only claim was his gender, which is bullshit.

Primogenitature, thou art a cruel master.

[Lord Varys]

Both Alysanne and Jaehaerys apparently had the silver-golden/blond hair (that's why Cersei could pass her picture of Rhaegar and her as picture of Jaehaerys and Alysanne). Alysanne had clear blue eyes, Jaehaerys' were a little more lilac, if I get the color right.

Well, as to non-Targaryen queens there is the Velaryon queen of Aegon III, the two queens of Viserys I (of which at least Alicent seems to have little to no Targaryen queen - Rhaenyra's mother may a daughter of one of Viserys' aunts), then there are the unaccounted for queens of Maegor (and I suspect at least one Targaryen/Valyrian queen to be among them, perhaps even Aenys' widow).

Then there are the unaccounted for queen(s)/wives of Aenys, Aegon II, Viserys II, Daeron I (he was married!), Baelor Breakspear, Rhaegel, Maekar (we don't know who Egg's mother was), Aegon V, Daeron the Drunk, Aerion, Jaehaerys II, and Egg's mysterious third son. Not counting princes we don't yet know anything about.

There is plenty of space for non-Targaryen brides, but still also space for incestuous marriages. I suspect that most non-Targaryen marriages happened later on, during the reigns of Daeron II, Maekar, and Aegon V. Egg/Jaehaerys apparently only returned to the incest custom because of the prophecy about the promised prince (who should be come from Aerys/Rhaella's line). It would not surprise me if Aelinor and Aerys I were the only children of Daeron II who married each other.

As non-Targaryen queen there are:

1. Viserys' I Arryn queen

2. Alicent Hightower

3. Aegon's III Velaryon queen

4. Myriah Martell

5. Egg's queen

6. Jaehaerys' II queen

Not counting Aegon's mother, there should at least be two other Velaryon queens out there, who may also have Targaryen ancestors, so they would at least be Valyrian queens.

[tze]

The first Dance being "the blacks" (Rhaenyra) vs "the greens" (Aegon) seems to lend (foreshadowing-based) support to the idea that the second Dance will end up being Dany on Drogon versus Aegon on Rhaegal.

Really? Then what is Bridget referring to in this sentence of her review: 'Rhaenyra takes a more active role—the story paints her as far more of a warrior than previous references have allowed.'

I think the bolded reference could explain that. This story has no third-person omniscient narrator, but is told "secondhand" by an Archmaester Gyldayn. GRRM has said that Rhaenyra was no warrior, and if Archmaester Gyldayn's story portrays her in a warrior-esque light, the point would then be to highlight the inherent faillibility of Gyladayn's narrative.

According to this narrative, the Grand Master at the time of Viserys's death (Orwyle) supported Rhaenyra, and we know that Grand Maester Gerardys was at some point fed to Aegon II's dragon. (It's unclear whether Gerardys was Orwyle's successor or vice versa. If Aegon had Gerardys killed prior to Viserys's death, that could explain why Orwyle was so willing to back Rhaenyra. If Gerardys was Orwyle's successor, it could hint that Rhaenyra had general Citadel backing, despite House Hightower, the controllers of Oldtown, backing Aegon.) If Aegon and his partisans were killing Grand Masters, it would make sense for the maesters' accounts of the Dance to present Rhaenyra in a more "positive" light (which in Westeros, means a warrior-ly light) than they might otherwise have done.

Yeah the significance wasn't lost on me either. Quite a major confirmation - this means no Bran or Tyrion or Victarion/Euron as dragonriders then. Jon, Dany and Aegon it is.

I'm not quite sure why anyone would take this as "confirmation" of anything, actually. :) The reviewer points out that this story, related by a maester, tries to paint the Targaryens as sort of demigod-esque, and the reviewer apparently quotes the Archmaster as describing the Targaryens being "rightly regarded as being closer to gods than the common run of men". But she also contrasts Archamester Gyldayn's "remote, magical" portrayal of the Targs with the much different, POV-based portrayals of the Targaryens seen in Dunk and Egg (as well as the main book line), which sounds like pretty clear evidence that GRRM means for Gyladayn's understanding of the Targaryens' "nature" to be viewed as quite fallible. It's not really a secret that the Targs had people believing you need Targaryen blood to ride a dragon, so "Archmaester Gyldayn's" claim there certainly isn't confirmation that Targ blood is necessary to ride a dragon. (When the person saying the Targs had special blood is also saying the Targs were closer to gods than men---something which readers know to be incorrect---the point is to examine the "special blood" idea critically rather than simply taking the claim for gospel.)

Realistically, the Targs would have had to pursue "dragonseed" dragonriders even if Targ blood was 100% unnecessary to dragonriding. I mean, logically: if you don't need Targ blood to ride a dragon, were the Targs ever going to admit that, or allow any evidence to arise that that might be the case? It would have guaranteed the end of their dynasty, no matter which Targ initially came out on top. If they needed new dragonriders, the only way to gain them without shooting the entire dynasty in the metaphorical foot was to either target Targ bastards or to target non-Targs while telling everyone they were Targ bastards.

The only thing this confirms is that the Targs had people in Westeros believing their blood was necessary for dragonriding, which we already knew from the main narrative.

[Rooghar Targaryen]

Well, if we want to look for non-Targs with Targaryen blood for potential dragon riders:

Stannis: 1/4 Targaryen blood

Shireen, Gendry, Edric Storm, Mia Stone, any other living bastards of Robert: 1/8 Targaryen blood

If Quentyn's blood was too watered down, I would guess all Martells, Hightowers, Arryn's and Starks (Not including Jon) would have too little Targaryen blood to be dragon riders.

Possible Targaryen Blood:

Brown Ben Plumm - Tyrion suggests he has more than a drop of Targaryen blood

(f)Aegon - Blackfyre blood should work as long as its not super watered down.

Rumory Targaryen Blood:

Varys - If he is directly related to Aerion "Brightflame" Targaryen

Tyrion - Aerys and Joanna

Jaime/Cercie - Aerys and Joanna

Darkstar - Aerys and Ashara Dayne/some Dayne

[mrunderhill]

The first Dance being "the blacks" (Rhaenyra) vs "the greens" (Aegon) seems to lend (foreshadowing-based) support to the idea that the second Dance will end up being Dany on Drogon versus Aegon on Rhaegal.

I think the bolded reference could explain that. This story has no third-person omniscient narrator, but is told "secondhand" by an Archmaester Gyldayn. GRRM has said that Rhaenyra was no warrior, and if Archmaester Gyldayn's story portrays her in a warrior-esque light, the point would then be to highlight the inherent faillibility of Gyladayn's narrative.

According to this narrative, the Grand Master at the time of Viserys's death (Orwyle) supported Rhaenyra, and we know that Grand Maester Gerardys was at some point fed to Aegon II's dragon. (It's unclear whether Gerardys was Orwyle's successor or vice versa. If Aegon had Gerardys killed prior to Viserys's death, that could explain why Orwyle was so willing to back Rhaenyra. If Gerardys was Orwyle's successor, it could hint that Rhaenyra had general Citadel backing, despite House Hightower, the controllers of Oldtown, backing Aegon.) If Aegon and his partisans were killing Grand Masters, it would make sense for the maesters' accounts of the Dance to present Rhaenyra in a more "positive" light (which in Westeros, means a warrior-ly light) than they might otherwise have done.

I'm not quite sure why anyone would take this as "confirmation" of anything, actually. :) The reviewer points out that this story, related by a maester, tries to paint the Targaryens as sort of demigod-esque, and the reviewer apparently quotes the Archmaster as describing the Targaryens being "rightly regarded as being closer to gods than the common run of men". But she also contrasts Archamester Gyldayn's "remote, magical" portrayal of the Targs with the much different, POV-based portrayals of the Targaryens seen in Dunk and Egg (as well as the main book line), which sounds like pretty clear evidence that GRRM means for Gyladayn's understanding of the Targaryens' "nature" to be viewed as quite fallible. It's not really a secret that the Targs had people believing you need Targaryen blood to ride a dragon, so "Archmaester Gyldayn's" claim there certainly isn't confirmation that Targ blood is necessary to ride a dragon. (When the person saying the Targs had special blood is also saying the Targs were closer to gods than men---something which readers know to be incorrect---the point is to examine the "special blood" idea critically rather than simply taking the claim for gospel.)

Realistically, the Targs would have had to pursue "dragonseed" dragonriders even if Targ blood was 100% unnecessary to dragonriding. I mean, logically: if you don't need Targ blood to ride a dragon, were the Targs ever going to admit that, or allow any evidence to arise that that might be the case? It would have guaranteed the end of their dynasty, no matter which Targ initially came out on top. If they needed new dragonriders, the only way to gain them without shooting the entire dynasty in the metaphorical foot was to either target Targ bastards or to target non-Targs while telling everyone they were Targ bastards.

The only thing this confirms is that the Targs had people in Westeros believing their blood was necessary for dragonriding, which we already knew from the main narrative.

A good post and completely true.

Though I think Martin actually said you don't have to be a Targaryen to ride the dragons, not that you don't need Targaryen blood. There is quite a big difference in the two comments.

Though this book confirms that the average person thought the Targaryens were god-like.

[Colonel Green]

The general outline of the Dance is clearly based on the Anarchy, but the outcome of changes to the succession laws reminds me of the institution of the Pauline Laws in Russia under Tsar Paul I, which placed all female members of the House of Romanov behind all male members, whereas in the previous century there had been four empresses; the last of these being Catherine II, Paul's mother, who he hated.

In the Anarchy, Henry I got his lords to swear loyalty to Matilda prior to his death. After his death, many of them went back on their word to back Stephen instead. It sounds like Viserys I tried the same thing, with similar results.

I wonder if the Hightowers' normal refusal to get too involved in the realm's politics grew out of this.