The Princess and the Queen [SPOILERS]

[J. Stargaryen]

No, unless I'm misunderstanding this is just a change in terms.

Right, Rhaegar was still born in 259 and died in 283, for example. But instead of 259AL it's 259AC. The same for the Tourney at Harrenhal in the Year of the False Spring; it still took place in the year 281.

[Lord Godric]

By all means, then go ahead. Do what you like. Really. It's a big forum. Here's what Martin wrote as Viserys died: "He was no dragon, Dany thought, curiously calm. Fire cannot kill a dragon." What I'm suggesting is the character's personality, not his Targness will de termine whether Martin puts him or her on a dragon. Apparently some Targ blood is necessary but I think it's more likely that it simply wasn't Quentyn's destiny to ride one of Martin's Dragons. I'd look at all of the likely Targs and think about whether the author wants each on a dragon rather than trying to figure out how much Targ blood they have, at which you can only guess anyway. But like I said, I'm not trying to stop you or put you down.

I think this idea of their personality mattering more than their lineage works with what Martin said about the three heads not having to necessarily be Targaryens.

[Khal Rhaggat - Cart King]

It's obvious that Alicent, Otto, and Criston are not going to get Aegon II crowned before they get permanently rid of the Rhaenyra loyalists in the capital. Both Beesbury and the Grand Maester may soon die, and Criston Cole most certainly will be the man who ends up securing the Iron Throne for Alicent/Aegon II by removing obstacles.

I'm super confused though. I thought I saw that Cole was super bitter because she used to be her lover. From AFFC 13, we have:

A few whispered that Ser Criston had been Princess Rhaenyra's lover before he took the white and wanted vengeance on the woman who had spurned him.

But then from the excerpt we have:

*In 111 AC, a great tourney was held at King’s Landing on the fifth anniversary of the king’s marriage to Queen Alicent. At the opening feast, the queen wore a green gown, whilst the princess dressed dramatically in Targaryen red and black. Note was taken, and thereafter it became the custom to refer to “greens” and “blacks” when talking of the queen’s party and the party of the princess, respectively. In the tourney itself, the blacks had much the better of it when Ser Criston Cole, wearing Princess Rhaenyra’s favor, unhorsed all of the queen’s champions, including two of her cousins and her youngest brother, Ser Gwayne Hightower

These two don't really conflict, but I wonder what happened between 111 and 128/129 that made that relationship break down... Will we learn more about what that's all about? That seems to be the major factor that made this whole war possible IMO.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Yeah, all AL references in the appendix should be read as AC. Westeros counts the reigns of the Targaryens from the time of Aegon's crowning, the completion of his conquest, and not from the time of his landing.

Oh thank goodness.

[Sour Billy Tipton]

Just realized today that George only has two projects to work on. The new Wild Cards Highstakes and TWOW.

He really cleared a lot off his plate in one year. I hope this means we'll see Winds come out next year or early 2015.

[Ran]

Pre-Dance of the Dragons material will be in TWoIaF, of course, so yes, there'll be more about Rhaenyra, Criston Cole, Ser Otto and Alicent, D--

Well, there'll be more, anyways. ;)

[History of Westeros]

He is a good fit for Stephen's son Eustace, though, the monastery-robber. And Aegon III did succeed his uncle, like Henry II did.

Of course, Stephen and Matilda bled England dry but at least they both survived. Though if they had dragons, who can say what would have happened?

GRRM seems to nod to the real history here. From the exceprt, the Septon that Maester Ordwyle says they need to inform?

Septon Eustace.

[RumHam]

This book is supposed to be written by a maester, and not the grand maester who was in the small council room. So how can this maester attribute quotes and even tones of voice to people when he wasn't there? Is the maester just making up the details like that to tell an effective story? Is someone recording the minutes during small council meetings?

[Ran]

The maester's account is based on several different sources, some of which were written by people who personally witnessed and were involved in some of the noted events, and were personally familiar with the main movers and shakers.

(One may add that the sources did not necessarily fight on the same side, or hold the same opinions, or report events in the exact same way.

And, taking it a step further, TWoIaF is written by a different maester (almost) entirely from the maester of TPatQ, who uses Gyldayn as a source in turn, and at some points seems to think Gyldayn depends too much on one source over another.

That was fun. :) )

[binga]

To add some authenticity to this whole Maester thing it would be nice to get to see some of the direct evidence that the Maesters use to arrive at their conclusions. Whether that be letters, drawings of dragons, eyewitness accounts etc.

[History of Westeros]

The maester's account is based on several different sources, some of which were written by people who personally witnessed and were involved in some of the noted events, and were personally familiar with the main movers and shakers.

(One may add that the sources did not necessarily fight on the same side, or hold the same opinions, or report events in the exact same way.

And, taking it a step further, TWoIaF is written by a different maester (almost) entirely from the maester of TPatQ, who uses Gyldayn as a source in turn, and at some points seems to think Gyldayn depends too much on one source over another.

That was fun. :) )

Pure awesome.

[Red Raven]

n/m

[Stoned Dragon]

I read the thread and people seem to be forgetting a Targaryan.

If dragons require a certain amount of Targaryan blood in order to bind with a rider, then isn't Bloodraven in contention?

Bloodraven has just as much Targaryan blood as Jon Snow, Dany, or (f)Aegon. More importantly, Bloodraven was born less than twenty years after the death of the last dragon, making it likely he knows far more about how to bond with a dragon than anyone else currently alive. He is also an extremely experienced warg.

Also, just putting it out there, but Jon Snow isn't prophesied to fight the Others using a dragon. According to one of his dreams:

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared.

While there is fire during the battle, Jon Snow is depicted with a blade in his hand fighting atop the Wall. I'm willing to bet that Aegon and Dany fight the Dance of the Dragons with one dragon apiece and Bloodraven wargs the third dragon to use in the fight against the Others. This would be perfect as it would give Dany a reason, after defeating Aegon, for traveling North (I NEED MY DRAGONZZZ!!) and would immediately get her involved in the fight against the Others.

I'm also willing to bet that Bloodraven dies in the cave, and chooses the dragon as his final vessel.

[Vengeance]

He is too minor a character, if anyone's warging a dragon it's Bran.

[History of Westeros]

Bloodraven has just as much Targaryan blood as Jon Snow, Dany, or (f)Aegon. More importantly, Bloodraven was born less than twenty years after the death of the last dragon, making it likely he knows far more about how to bond with a dragon than anyone else currently alive. He is also an extremely experienced warg.

Dany was born from a brother/sister Targ marriage. Aerys/Rhaella are less Targ than Bloodraven's father, but Bloodraven's mom was 0% Targ. Pretty sure that puts Dany well ahead of Bloodraven in terms of blood purity. That said, I think people are making too much of the blood purity thing. Dany's hair isn't 65% gold/silver nor are her eyes 35% purple or whatever. Her blood was not 100% Targ but she looks 100% Targ.

Also Bloodraven was born ~45 years after the death of the last dragon. Probably doesn't change your point, though. He's still pretty likely to know a few things.

[PrimeRhaegar]

http://www.tor.com/s...-martin-excerpt

Read It Now! :read:

this is awesome just a few paragraphs and i'm hyped up for this novella. I just wonder though if it was not a good thing this war happened in some ways since if the dragons were still about when daeron I invaded dorne then my god dorne would have been done for. Still i can't wait the small council looks interesting and we can finally know more about the KG during this era. Such a shame no starks are martells will be involved.

[Lord Varys]

Criston Cole supposedly was in love with Rhaenyra in her youth (indicated in AFfC). That much is confirmed/implied in the footnote about the tourney in 111 where Criston wore Rhaenyra's favor. When she dumped him/married her first husband he got angry and ended up joining the faction of the greens.

Rhaenyra would have been in her teens in 111, most likely she was born in the late nineties (~196-98), during the last years of her great-grandfather's reign. We already know that Rhaenyra is supposed to be ten years older than Rhaenyra, and it's very likely that Aegon was born shortly after Viserys married Alicent in 106. Especially since Aegon has at least a daughter at the outbreak of the Dance in 129, the very daughter who ends up becoming the first childless queen of Aegon III.

It seems as if Viserys was already a man grown, perhaps even in his late thirties when his grandfather died. Since he married Alicent in 106, my guess is that 105, the very year when the Realm was commanded to swear fealty to Princess Rhaenyra and acknowledge her as Princess of Dragonstone and Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne, was also the year in which Rhaenyra's mother died.

The Hightower match has the smell of a honey trap all over it. My guess is that Viserys fell in love with this young and beautiful Hightower girl and decided to make her his new queen. This could mean that Alysanne and Jaehaerys were no youths when their uncle Maegor died, but were in their middle years as well, being born to Aenys at about the half of Aegon's reign or so. The Old King ruled for over fifty years, but to be really old upon his death he would have to come into his throne at 30-35 at least.

But the Hightowers involvement in high politics and plotting keeps puzzles me as well. They are trying to pull a Boleyn here, and this should backfire heavily on them, especially since Aegon and all his siblings are not going to survive the Dance (whereas Rhaenyra's second husband, Aegon's and Viserys' father, apparently does). My only guess is that it is by no means sure that the main branch of House Hightower is going to declare whole-heartedly for Aegon, nor do I see Oldtown sticking to him until the very end. Ser Otto may be Hand of the King, but he is apparently only a Ser, not the Lord of the Hightower. He is obviously a brother or merely a cousin to the present Lord Hightower, and thus his line may end up the same way as some of the Florents in the main series, but without touching the main Hightower branch in Oldtown.

By the way, it would be interesting to know if Alysanne was still alive when her great-granddaughter was named the Princess of Dragonstone. It happened in 105, only two years after Jaehaerys' death, and we don't yet know if Jaehaerys or Alysanne was the older sibling (I always imagined them to be twins).

If Rhaenyra was 14-15 in 111, then this is most likely also the time around which she married for the first time. Her sons from her first husband apparently were all grown men when the war began, so she must have given birth to her eldest child quite early. The line about Rhaenyra having problems with her headstrong sons seems to foreshadow that she is going to face similar challenges as Catelyn during the main series, but the interesting (and good) thing here is, that Rhaenyra is the actual pretender, the one who is fighting the war, not her son(s).

[History of Westeros]

Criston Cole supposedly was in love with Rhaenyra in her youth (indicated in AFfC). That much is confirmed/implied in the footnote about the tourney in 111 where Criston wore Rhaenyra's favor. When she dumped him/married her first husband he got angry and ended up joining the faction of the greens.

Of interest here as well is that we don't know if Cole was in the Kingsguard in 111. Almost certainly he was not, as I doubt Kingsguard wear favors.

His joining of the Kingsguard might be similar to Rhaella/Ser Bonifer Hasty or even Prince Aemon the Dragonknight/Naerys (without the incest of course, hah).

That said, Rhaella and Ser Bonifer likely never consummated their relationship. With Aemon we can't be sure but it's entirely possible they never consummated either. I think there's a good chance the same goes for Rhaenyra and Cole, especially given her young age, status and pride.

I think a real affair between those two would've been something *very* difficult to conceal. Look at all the pains Ser Arys and Arianne took to hide theirs, and they were in Dorne.

Rhaenyra would have been in her teens in 111, most likely she was born in the late nineties (~196-98), during the last years of her great-grandfather's reign. We already know that Rhaenyra is supposed to be ten years older than Rhaenyra, and it's very likely that Aegon was born shortly after Viserys married Alicent in 106. Especially since Aegon has at least a daughter at the outbreak of the Dance in 129, the very daughter who ends up becoming the first childless queen of Aegon III.

The big question there is who did Aegon II marry? Good chance it was a wartime marriage to cement an alliance or to bring in a House that was sitting the war out. I can't see any evidence/hints that he was married pre-Dance, and given his age it's tempting to guess that he wasn't.

The Hightower match has the smell of a honey trap all over it. My guess is that Viserys fell in love with this young and beautiful Hightower girl and decided to make her his new queen. This could mean that Alysanne and Jaehaerys were no youths when their uncle Maegor died, but were in their middle years as well, being born to Aenys at about the half of Aegon's reign or so. The Old King ruled for over fifty years, but to be really old upon his death he would have to come into his throne at 30-35 at least.

But the Hightowers involvement in high politics and plotting keeps puzzles me as well. They are trying to pull a Boleyn here, and this should backfire heavily on them, especially since Aegon and all his siblings are not going to survive the Dance (whereas Rhaenyra's second husband, Aegon's and Viserys' father, apparently does). My only guess is that it is by no means sure that the main branch of House Hightower is going to declare whole-heartedly for Aegon, nor do I see Oldtown sticking to him until the very end. Ser Otto may be Hand of the King, but he is apparently only a Ser, not the Lord of the Hightower. He is obviously a brother or merely a cousin to the present Lord Hightower, and thus his line may end up the same way as some of the Florents in the main series, but without touching the main Hightower branch in Oldtown.

Yes. I believe the Hightowers wanted to get involved with setting trade/tax policies, as Lords of Oldtown this is a matter of extraordinary wealth. (which might have still been the largest port back then! King's Landing is the biggest port now, but was that the case during the Dance?) Of course, if this is a lesser branch of the Hightowers which is not aligned with the main branch, they'd lack much of this incentive.

What is your reason for assuming UberTarg survived the Dance?

By the way, it would be interesting to know if Alysanne was still alive when her great-granddaughter was named the Princess of Dragonstone. It happened in 105, only two years after Jaehaerys' death, and we don't yet know if Jaehaerys or Alysanne was the older sibling (I always imagined them to be twins).

Nice catch. She might have played a major role in paving the way for a Queen, and may have had the political clout to affect the situation.

If Rhaenyra was 14-15 in 111, then this is most likely also the time around which she married for the first time. Her sons from her first husband apparently were all grown men when the war began, so she must have given birth to her eldest child quite early. The line about Rhaenyra having problems with her headstrong sons seems to foreshadow that she is going to face similar challenges as Catelyn during the main series, but the interesting (and good) thing here is, that Rhaenyra is the actual pretender, the one who is fighting the war, not her son(s).

For this to be true, it requires a ret-con or someone being wrong etc. We are famously told that Aegon III saw his mother Rhaenyra eaten when he was a "boy". Which means none of her sons were grown. That said, "headstrong" sons indicates they were old enough to do... something I guess.

SSM says Viserys II was in his fifties when he ascended in 171, so this may get retconned as well.

[Anath]

For this to be true, it requires a ret-con or someone being wrong etc. We are famously told that Aegon III saw his mother Rhaenyra eaten when he was a "boy". Which means none of her sons were grown. That said, "headstrong" sons indicates they were old enough to do... something I guess.

SSM says Viserys II was in his fifties when he ascended in 171, so this may get retconned as well.

Not necessarily. GRRM said that all three of Rhaenyra's sons from her first husband died fighting. They were adults. It doesn't prevent Aegon III from being a boy when it happened.

Just look at the age gap between Naerys' two children: Daeron II was already a father when Daenerys was born. And he managed to father four sons in a period of about five-six years at most and maybe squeeze a daughter in between.

if Rhaenyra gave birth to her first child when she was about 16, the time frame fits. Aegon could be about 20 years younger than his oldest half-brother.

[History of Westeros]

Not necessarily. GRRM said that all three of Rhaenyra's sons from her first husband died fighting. They were adults. It doesn't prevent Aegon III from being a boy when it happened.

Just look at the age gap between Naerys' two children: Daeron II was already a father when Daenerys was born. And he managed to father four sons in a period of about five-six years at most and maybe squeeze a daughter in between.

if Rhaenyra gave birth to her first child when she was about 16, the time frame fits. Aegon could be about 20 years younger than his oldest half-brother.

Ok I think I've gotten a little confused by the change in first husband, and reveal of second husband.

Is this what you're saying?:

Rhaenyra and Husband 1 (son of one of the era's more interesting people) have 3 sons, all of whom die during the Dance.

Rhaenyra and Husband 2 (UberTarg) have Aegon III and Viserys II, who are boys during the war.

If this is accurate then it certainly fits quite well.

That said, where does GRRM state that Rhaenyra had 3 sons with her first husband, and where does he say they died fighting? I have the entirety of So Spake Martin in a doc but maybe I missed that somehow.

20 years is too big a gap though. Rhaenyra was unmarried in 111, and there's only 18 years between then and the time the war starts, and she herself dies in the first year of the war.

We know Viserys II was Aegon III's younger brother, and since he was in his fifties when he became king he had to have been born no later than 120. So Aegon III himself could be born no later than 119ish. Looks like 8 years is the absolute max difference in years, with 6-7 being more likely.