What is Tywin's relationship to/opinion of Cersei?

[Currawong]

Tywin of course is almost the opposite extreme - coldly calculating, and willing to ignore other people's emotions or desires if he can use them to serve his own purpose, which is often a much longer term strategic one. This is why we see him behave as he does towards Cersei in ASOS. Her actions have made things awkward for the Lannisters and her behaviour is getting worse, so it doesn't matter that she is his daughter - she is to be dealt with as a current obstacle in KL, and is to be moved somewhere else where she can be 'useful' in the bigger picture, such as a second marriage for strategic Lannister family/political purposes. He does not allow any emotions about 'family' to override his rational thoughts and planning.

Yet his inability to understand other's feelings and emotions are also his (fatal!) blind spot, which we see not so much in his dealings with Cersei, but with Jaime and Tyrion. He doesn't 'get' Jaime at all, especially the new, one-handed Jaime, and he completely mis-reads Tyrion.

[Kolantero]

Notice that Cersei's bitterness over her marriage is after-the-fact, she tells Ned that she thought she loved Robert when she first saw him, that he was handsome and gallant, not to mention powerful. The anger and resentment came later. At this point who knew that Robert would commit marital rape?

That's my point, Ned would never leave his daughter to an abusive husband even after the marriage. There is not a chance that Ned would tolerate Joffrey or anyone abusing Sansa or Arya.

Did Tywin even know?

I find it really hard to believe that the thing was going on for a decade and he didn't know at least some version of it.

Later the issue comes up, and Tywin is harsher, because the times are harsher, but no one on that list was going to abuse Cersei. Willas, especially not.,

Wasn't Oberyn one of the potentail "grooms" who, aside from his personality and the fact that he was a dangerous impulsive person, also hated Lannisters with a conviction? Didn't Tywin also mentioned Balon at some point?

Also, Ned agreed, and I don't see any sign that he considered it improper or would have called it off if Sansa was mad. I see a speech about honor and sacrifice in Sansa's future if that was the case.

Agreeing to marry your daughter with a family you trust (Robert's) after the King essentially forces it upon you is something very different than actively trying and succeeding to marry your daughter to the new (drunk, whoring) King (Robert) just to elevate your position (unlike Ned who had no such thing in mind) and then leaving her for a decade in an abusive marriage.

[Axrendale]

If certain chapters in ASOS are any indication, Tywin had enormous confidence in Cersei's abilities as a wedding-planner, and thought that she had good judgement about jewellery and clothing.

As far as everything else goes however...

[Winter's Knight]

If certain chapters in ASOS are any indication, Tywin had enormous confidence in Cersei's abilities as a wedding-planner, and thought that she had good judgement about jewellery and clothing.

As far as everything else goes however...

O.M.G.

“To rule? No. He left his cousin Ser Manfrey as castellan, old blind Ricasso as seneschal, his bailiffs to collect duties and taxes for histreasurer Alyse Ladybright to count, his shariffs to police the shadow city, his justiciars to sit in judgment, and Maester Myles to deal with any letters not requiring the prince’s own attention. Above them all he placed the Red Viper. My charge was feasts and frolics, and the entertainment of distinguished guests.

[western wolf]

Well, in ASoS, though Cersei is queen, when Tywin demands that she marry essentially against her will, she doesn't really fight it. She just lucks out that the proposal is refused.

Based on that, it seems that Tywin is the more powerful, determining his daughters future.

[Djinn]

Is Cersei stupid or foolish?

Intelligence has been defined in many different ways including, but not limited to, abstract thought, understanding, self-awareness, communication, reasoning, learning, having emotional knowledge, retaining, planning, and problem solving.

Wisdom is the judicious application of knowledge. It is a deep understanding and realization of people, things, events or situations, resulting in the ability to apply perceptions, judgments and actions in keeping with this understanding. It often requires control of one's emotional reactions (the "passions") so that universal principles, reason and knowledge prevail to determine one's actions. Wisdom is also the comprehension of what is true coupled with optimum judgment as to action. Synonyms include: sagacity, discernment, or insight.

In Understanding Stupidity, James F. Welles defines stupidity this way: "The term may be used to designate a mentality which is considered to be informed, deliberate and maladaptive." Welles distinguishes stupidity from ignorance; one must know they are acting in their own worst interest. Secondly, it must be a choice, not a forced act or accident. Lastly, it requires the activity to be maladaptive, in that it is in the worst interest of the actor, and specifically done to prevent adaption to new data or existing circumstances."^[10]

[Currawong]

That's my point, Ned would never leave his daughter to an abusive husband even after the marriage. There is not a chance that Ned would tolerate Joffrey or anyone abusing Sansa or Arya.

And in that Westeros society, what exactly would or could Ned have done? Absolutely nothing, unless he wanted to start a war. Ned would have done his best to make sure that he made a good match for his daughters, in terms of both ploitics and the sort of person he chose for their husbands, but once married, he as a father lost any 'rights' to interfere. Husbands could and did 'chastise' their wives in whatever way they liked - that was their 'right'- and there wasn't anything that dear Papa could do without starting a war. Leaving aside any issues about Joffrey's own claim to the throne, I can't see Ned starting yet another rebellion just because Joffrey abused Sansa. Remember that nobody took any action when Aerys raped and brutalised Rhaella, and there would have been plenty of Ned's own bannermen who were less than pleasant to their own wives at times, so they wouldn't go marching off to war on Ned's behalf just because Sansa was unhappy.

When looking at how Tywin treated Cersei in terms of arranging her marriages, we therefore need to look at it in the context of Westeros society,and that society is very much a patriarchal one, where fathers and husbands have 'rights' over their daughters and wives in ways that are alien to us in the west these days.

[Winter's Knight]

But aren't the clansmen of the North marching to war, right now, in a cruel snowstorm, for Ned's little girl?

I find it very difficult to believe that Ned, who was willing to let the woman who (as far as he knew) killed his foster father and crippled his son, get away with treason and murder just so that her children wouldn't suffer, would be willing to let his daughter suffer at Joff's hands rather than bestir himself to protest. He'd have brought her home at the very least, wedding vows be damned.

[Castel]

But aren't the clansmen of the North marching to war, right now, in a cruel snowstorm, for Ned's little girl?

I find it very difficult to believe that Ned, who was willing to let the woman who (as far as he knew) killed his foster father and crippled his son, get away with treason and murder just so that her children wouldn't suffer, would be willing to let his daughter suffer at Joff's hands rather than bestir himself to protest. He'd have brought her home at the very least, wedding vows be damned.

Perhaps. The point is though, that such behavior would be nearly unthinkable. Once a woman is married she passes into the care of her husband. We haven't really seen this basic tenet broken with any sort of legal acceptance iirc. That is just the way things are. Ned may be the odd man willing to risk war to stop this (I doubt it but hey, he's dumb) I don't think that that's a society-wide thing.

[Belisarius09]

She respects her father and strives to surpass him in greatness. If Tywinn were still alive he'd likely laugh at that notion (even though he doesn't laugh). Cersei was just a tool to him, and sometimes she did the jobs he needed her to do and other times she failed utterly(Ned Stark) and he was forced to apply a different tool to the situation (Tyrion). He still viewed her as a tool before his death as he planned to marry her off again to further advance House Lannister's political ambitions. He cared little for her feelings on that subject or any matter. She was just another piece he used as he played the game. As a pragmatic man he wasn't going to throw away pieces unless they had become obsolete. But he didn't care what she thought or how she felt.

[Kolantero]

And in that Westeros society, what exactly would or could Ned have done? Absolutely nothing, unless he wanted to start a war. Ned would have done his best to make sure that he made a good match for his daughters, in terms of both ploitics and the sort of person he chose for their husbands, but once married, he as a father lost any 'rights' to interfere. Husbands could and did 'chastise' their wives in whatever way they liked - that was their 'right'- and there wasn't anything that dear Papa could do without starting a war. Leaving aside any issues about Joffrey's own claim to the throne, I can't see Ned starting yet another rebellion just because Joffrey abused Sansa.

I think he would start a war for that. More likely he would just refuse to have Sansa married to him if he knew what Joffrey was beforehand.

Remember that nobody took any action when Aerys raped and brutalised Rhaella,

Rhaella didn't have another family (like Catelyn has the Tullys even though she is Lady Stark) to help her since basically her husband and abuser was also her brother.

and there would have been plenty of Ned's own bannermen who were less than pleasant to their own wives at times, so they wouldn't go marching off to war on Ned's behalf just because Sansa was unhappy.

He wouldn't ask them anyway, he would just call his bannermen to come. Many of them seem to like the idea of an independent North, something which would surely ensue if there was a civil war for Sansa and the North won.

When looking at how Tywin treated Cersei in terms of arranging her marriages, we therefore need to look at it in the context of Westeros society,and that society is very much a patriarchal one, where fathers and husbands have 'rights' over their daughters and wives in ways that are alien to us in the west these days.

Well making a distinction between Tywin and some other instances does not mean that i am ignoring or rejecting the greater context. Individual characters and behaviors can play a significant role. A key difference between Ned and Tywin is that the latter happily gave Cersei to Robert while Ned was forced to give Sansa to Joffrey.

There might not be much room for maneuvering in the ASOIAF society on most occasions (i doubt any bannerman would have much choice if his liege lord asked him to betroth their children) but at least you can try not to have your daughter end up the 16th Lady Frey or something similar :P

[RhaenysBee]

Well, Tywin is Cersei's father and she not much more than a whore, but still his daughter in his opinion.

[Currawong]

A key difference between Ned and Tywin is that the latter happily gave Cersei to Robert while Ned was forced to give Sansa to Joffrey.

Ned wasn't being forced to give Sansa to Joffrey at all. You forget that when Robert came to Winterfell, a betrothal to the heir to the throne was not only a great and unexpected honour, but also something that Sansa herself was desperately looking forward to! She was going to be a princess and then a Queen - it was every little girl's dream going to come true. Even if Ned subsequently had his doubts, it would have been difficult / impossible to get out of a betrothal unless Robert and JOffrey agreed. If things had gone as normal, and Sansa had been married to Joffrey before he'd shown any of the nastier aspects to his character, there would have been nothing that Ned could have done about it at all - especially if Robert had still been alive. Sansa would have been the next Queen, and 'rescuing' her would have been an open act of treason.

The men of the north may want to rescue Sansa now, because her betrothal to Joffrey was broken, and because she is now married to a kiingslayer and kingslayer, wanted for all sorts of crimes. That is a very different matter than coming to 'rescue' a woman because her husband was brutal.

Ned and Tywin may have used slightly different criteria to choose or approve husbands for their daughters, but they would have been in exactly the same position if they found out that hubby was being nasty. Short of open war, there was little or nothig they could do.

[The Rise of Dorne]

IQ tests merely give a certain base level of culture-specific intelligence but what an IQ test doesn't measure is emotional intelligence, or all the many other personality factors.

You can have people who are very highly 'intelligent' according to their IQ, and whom no-one would normally call 'stupid', but they nevertheless often make poor decisions because, for example, they are extremely poor at reading or understanding other people or their motivations, or because they themselves have various emotions/personality factors that impact on their rational, logical thought processes.

That is the case with Cersei, who would undoubtedly score as 'intelligent' on an IQ test, but who makes bad decisions because of many other factors, such as her almost paranoid fear for the safety of her children. That doesn't make her 'stupid' as such, it just means that often - as with so many people in RL at times - she allows her heart to rule her head. That is part of what makes her such a fascinating person, seeing how a normally calculating woman can gradually become driven more by emotions than rationality/logic. I think Cersei was always probably poor at reading people anyway, and her desire for power plus growing paranoia has just made this worse.

No.

First of all that doesn't describe Cersei. It might described Tywin. Tywin lacks emotional intelligence. But emotional intelligence is bullshit, anyway. Emotional intelligence how stupid people make themselves feel better about being stupid. I'm talking about raw Bill Gates, socially awkward, brainiac, brain power. Cersei, lacks it. Not because she doesn't understand other people's motivations and emotions, because she can't figure out the distance between Harrenhal and kingslanding. or count the number of troops she has and compare to the 80,000 the Tyrells have.

And that's just the thing CERSEI ISN'T NORMALLY CALCULATING. She's always been stupid. Her plan to kill Robert was stupid. I mean she relied on Lancel and random chance. It so fucking horrible. The only reason Cersei is successful is because she's up against Ned and Robert who are both borderline retarded.

P.S. separately, I will agree that IQ tests are broadly bullshit but still useful narrowly for comparing two individuals. there will always be some inherent bias in any test because there has to a commonality of concepts in order for the test subject to interpret and respond to the test.

[The Rise of Dorne]

In Understanding Stupidity, James F. Welles defines stupidity this way: "The term may be used to designate a mentality which is considered to be informed, deliberate and maladaptive." Welles distinguishes stupidity from ignorance; one must know they are acting in their own worst interest. Secondly, it must be a choice, not a forced act or accident. Lastly, it requires the activity to be maladaptive, in that it is in the worst interest of the actor, and specifically done to prevent adaption to new data or existing circumstances."[10]

THIS.

I rest my case. Cersei is precisely, stupid.

[Theda Baratheon]

''Emotional intelligence how stupid people make themselves feel better about being stupid''

Umm. lol OK

[Arkantos]

Why is Ned being called stupid? He only lost to Cersei because of Littlefinger, give him a break.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

I can't imagine her being much more than an afterthought to Tywin. Cersei screams of emotional neglect. All the Lannister kids seem like they could have used a few more hugs growing up and a little less financial indulgence. Throwing money at problems rarely works, even if you're as rich as the Lannisters.

[Theda Baratheon]

Why is Ned being called stupid? He only lost to Cersei because of Littlefinger, give him a break.

Exactly, I can't really take much of what that guy's just said seriously as it ended with Ned being called a borderline retard.

Ummmm.

I can't imagine her being much more than an afterthought to Tywin. Cersei screams of emotional neglect. All the Lannister kids seem like they could have used a few more hugs growing up and a little less financial indulgence. Throwing money at problems rarely works, even if you're as rich as the Lannisters.

Awww, yes. :(

[Winter's Knight]

Exactly, I can't really take much of what that guy's just said seriously as it ended with Ned being called a borderline retard.

Ummmm.

Umm.., is right but really, Ned should have sent his daughters home before confronting Cersei-he believed the woman had murdered Jon A. and crippled his son, yet expected her to slink off to Essos, tail between her legs once he confronted her?

At least we know where Sansa got her naivety from.