R+L=J v.41

[Addam of Hull]

I don't see any room for legitimate debate about the meaning of the SSM. He was asked why the KG stayed at the TOJ, not why they went there in the first place. He responded by citing Rhaegar's orders.

But let's set that aside and focus on your (very good) point about how the KG respond to conflicting obligations. Suppose that Rhaegar ordered them to make sure Lyanna did not fall into the hands of the rebels. First, we know from Barristan that their first instinct would be that the order survives the death of the person giving it, because he thinks Cersei should honor Robert's will. Second, we know that when other KG have faced conflicting obligations, sometimes they have tried to follow both and sometimes they have chosen between the two. The best example probably comes from the Hedge Knight, where the KG in the trial of seven faced a conflict between obeying an order and defending a prince. They tried to accomplish both.

So apply this logic to the 3 KG at the TOJ. They would want to be sure Viserys was safe -- which at the time he was, since he was on Dragonstone protected by the Targ fleet -- while also ensuring that Lyanna did not fall into the hands of the rebels. At that point, there was little immediate danger to Viserys but there was an imminent threat to their ability to keep Lyanna out of the hands of the rebels. Also, remember that the window of time was very narrow -- Jon had to be born a boy after the KG learned that Aerys et al. were dead but before Ned arrived and Lyanna died. The KG might have decided that they could stay with Lyanna so long as she lived and any delay this caused to their arrival at Dragonstone (perhaps with Jon in tow) would be minimal.

Of course, there are other examples. When Dany flies away from Meereen on Drogon's back, Barristan has the choice of going looking for her or staying and staying in Meereen and doing what he thought she would want him to do. He chooses the latter.

So it is entirely possible that the KG at the TOJ were keeping their oath to obey Rhaegar or that they were trying to keep that oath and get to Viserys as soon as it was practical to do so. This does not prove that Jon was not the king. But it does demonstrate that the KG presence at the TOJ does not prove that Jon was the king.

I think the major flaw with arguing that they were staying there to keep Lyanna safe is that only one of them needed to leave ToJ to protect Viserys. The very heart of their vows demands that there always be one member with the King at all times. Knowing what we do about Arthur Dayne and Gerold Hightower, it's a little difficult to swallow that they would all three sit there if their King was without his Kingsguard. No matter what Rhaegar asked them to do, these two knights wouldn't prioritize protection of his mistress over the protection of their true King, especially after all the treachery that's gone on - one of their own slew Aerys II, so that would make it even more important that they protect their King. If we look at all this, the only thing that really makes sense is if they're already doing that.

[Sasha Steelsong]

I'm not tripping out about people attacking my theory. But my actually theory hasn't been referenced by any of my attackers. All that has been referenced my reply to a question posed by someone else. Aaaaaand my theories are centered on the fact that Ned said he had been living his lies (as in plural). If Jon is simply R+L then what is the other lie or lies Ned is referring to.

I can think of several, none of which make Jon someone else's child.

1) If that Lyanna left willingly and was not kidnapped (the truth would have dishonored her and House Stark)

2) If Lyanna was married and Jon was not only Rhaegar's child but his legitimate heir as well. I personally think that Robert would have wanted Jon dead regardless of whether he was legit, just because Rhaegar was his father.

3) Hiding the fact that Lyanna died royal (which if they were married she would have, princess not queen though)

4) Or just the fact that in order to maintain the fiction that Jon is his son, he's had to lie to multiple people in multiple small ways for a decade and a half.

[Dr. Pepper]

Haha, how could Brandon being Jon's dad be disproven?

Apart from GRRM giving a pretty explicit timeline for Jon's birth, the fact that Jon is able to be passed off as younger than Robb eliminates Brandon as a potential father for him. Brandon died well before Ned and Cat married and conceived Robb.

Aaaaaand my theories are centered on the fact that Ned said he had been living his lies (as in plural). If Jon is simply R+L then what is the other lie or lies Ned is referring to.

Ned's had to tell many lies to keep up the ruse of who Jon's parents are. He's lied about his fidelity, Jon's parentage, the reason Lyanna died, etc.

[Techelles]

I'm not tripping out about people attacking my theory. But my actually theory hasn't been referenced by any of my attackers. All that has been referenced my reply to a question posed by someone else. Aaaaaand my theories are centered on the fact that Ned said he had been living his lies (as in plural). If Jon is simply R+L then what is the other lie or lies Ned is referring to.

Which brings me to my theory. R+L=someone else that Lyanna doesn't want Robert to know about as being ONE of his lies and the truth about Jon's parentage being the other lie. In Ned's chapter when he and Robert are riding together on their way to King's Landing they start talking about Robert on the Trident and how he fought to avenge Lyanna and immediately after Ned reflects on how Lyanna made a promise to him, seemingly connecting team promise to Robert. So what is Ned's other lie? That is the basis of my argument.

Well, it was the "every angle" part that I meant to emphasize more than just the risk of being attacked. Point being, if an idea isn't consistent with all that we know, it's not likely to be accepted. That's why no alternate parentage theories (etc.) survive very long in this thread.

Anyway, the truth about Jon's parentage is what Ned doesn't want Robert to know about. It would risk Jon's life. And I'd say the whole Jon situation would compound a lie pretty quickly. By claiming Jon as his own, Ned is asserting a number of falsehoods: he's lying about Jon's parents, he's lying about the manner of Lyanna's death, he's lying about committing adultery, he's lying to Jon about being a bastard, etc. Lies to his wife, lies to his friend, lies to Jon, lies to all of Westeros. A man like Ned, who despises lies, is the type to guilt-trip himself pretty hard. His POV reflects that. Ned thinking "lies" one time is consistent with everything we know.

So I hardly think that that one word, which can be written off very easily, is sufficient reason to separate the issues of R+L and Jon's parentage. When you do that, all that consistency I mentioned earlier falls apart. Nothing makes sense. All the clues lose their connection to each other and become inscrutable. This makes your line of reasoning unlikely.

ETA: double ninja'd.

[Jon Icefyre]

I'm not tripping out about people attacking my theory. But my actually theory hasn't been referenced by any of my attackers. All that has been referenced my reply to a question posed by someone else. Aaaaaand my theories are centered on the fact that Ned said he had been living his lies (as in plural). If Jon is simply R+L then what is the other lie or lies Ned is referring to.

Which brings me to my theory. R+L=someone else that Lyanna doesn't want Robert to know about as being ONE of his lies and the truth about Jon's parentage being the other lie. In Ned's chapter when he and Robert are riding together on their way to King's Landing they start talking about Robert on the Trident and how he fought to avenge Lyanna and immediately after Ned reflects on how Lyanna made a promise to him, seemingly connecting team promise to Robert. So what is Ned's other lie? That is the basis of my argument.

And this is why people are asking you to tell them who Jon's parents could possibly be? To which you responded "maybe Lyanna is the mother". The timeline disproves Brandon and Ashara so again what are you trying to say??Lol the lies could refer to a number of things, besides just because the "lie" is based off one Idea it doesn't mean it hasn't been told numerous times to numerous people so when Ned says "lies" he could just mean that he lied about Jon's parents numerous times to numerous people thus turning the lie plural. Also think about all of the things that "lie" possibly represents:

• Ned is not Jon's father Rhaegar is and Lyanna is Jon's mother
  
• Lyanna was in love with Rhaegar so he did not rape her like Ned let's Robert continue to believe up until his death.
  
• Jon is legitimate
  
• There is a Targaryen still alive in Westeros
  
• Rhaegar still has an heir alive in Westeros thus making Jon the true heir/king of Westeros
  
• Cat's resentment of Jon is based on a lie.
  
• Jon is not the brother of Ned's other children as Ned raised him/them to believe
  

Even thought this is all based off one idea(Jon's parentage) when someone sees all of this they would not take it all simply as one lie they would most likely see this as multiple lies created from that one idea.

[Blackfyre the Bold]

The truth about Jon's parentage is what Ned doesn't want Robert to know about. It would risk Jon's life. And I'd say the whole Jon situation would compound a lie pretty quickly. By claiming Jon as his own, Ned is asserting a number of falsehoods: he's lying about Jon's mother, he's lying about the manner of Lyanna's death, he's lying about committing adultery, he's lying to Jon about being a bastard, etc. Lies to his wife, lies to his friend, lies to Jon, lies to all of Westeros. A man like Ned, who despises lies, is the type to guilt-trip himself pretty hard. His POV reflects that. Ned thinking "lies" one time is consistent with everything we know.

Anyway, I hardly think that that one word, which can be written off very easily, is sufficient reason to separate the issues of R+L and Jon's parentage. When you do that, all that consistency I mentioned earlier falls apart. Nothing makes sense. All the clues lose their connection to each other and become inscrutable. This makes your line of reasoning unlikely.

ETA: double ninja'd.

There are a lot of things I find unlikely. We know there was someone with Howland Reed when he entered the room and found Ned with Lyanna. So what does that mean? When Ned walked into the room it was just Lyanna there with her newborn child? So what, the KG was there to protect Rhaegar's child (instead of being with him on the Trident or with his dad at King's Landing) yet they left Lyanna unattended, bleeding on her deathbed with a baby in the room so they could confront Ned and his company? That doesn't seem very sensible to me. Assuming the person that enters the room with Howland Reed is the midwife or maester (considering only Howland and Ned survived the fight), why would she or he leave Lyanna unattended WITH A NEWBORN, even for a second? Lyanna was lying in a bed of blood and died shortly after Ned arrives so it's very likely whoever delivered her baby knew she was on the verge of dying. So leaving a dying Lyanna alone with a newborn seems careless and very unlikely.

So with all that I proposed (as in past tense-check the archives) that Dayne, Whent and Hightower knew Ned was on his way (which isn't farfetched considering Ned found out where they were and nowhere is it mentioned how he found out) and had the newborn escorted away by other attendants while they gave their lives to bide enough time for the escape. The newborn would have been in grave danger if captured so I highly doubt the KG would have risked leaving the baby unprotected to fight a 3 on 6 mismatch. Doesn't seem like a good plan and Dayne, Whent and Hightower are not renown for being idiots.

Moreover, if Ned was trying to keep Jon's parentage a secret, why would he go to Starfall with a newborn child RIGHT AFTER leaving the ToJ. Surely the Daynes would put two and two together.

No chinks in my armor homeboy!!!!!!!

[Sasha Steelsong]

There are a lot of things I find unlikely. We know there was someone with Howland Reed when he entered the room and found Ned with Lyanna. So what does that mean? When Ned walked into the room it was just Lyanna there with her newborn child? So what, the KG was there to protect Rhaegar's child (instead of being with him on the Trident or with his dad at King's Landing) yet they left Lyanna unattended, bleeding on her deathbed with a baby in the room so they could confront Ned and his company? That doesn't seem very sensible to me. Assuming the person that enters the room with Howland Reed is the midwife or maester (considering only Howland and Ned survived the fight), why would she or he leave Lyanna unattended WITH A NEWBORN, even for a second? Lyanna was lying in a bed of blood and died shortly after Ned arrives so it's very likely whoever delivered her baby knew she was on the verge of dying. So leaving a dying Lyanna alone with a newborn seems careless and very unlikely.

Yes it is possible that for an instant Lyanna was actually left alone, or that the person who was normally in the room (particularly if it was a maester) was outside seeing if any of the fallen could be saved, so that she was by herself at the time but not by herself in a general sense. Dying is not dead nor does dying mean dying quickly, especially since you keep forgetting about the fever that Ned mentions, so this is not a matter of Lyanna hemoraging but of her dying slowly due to childbirth complications. It would be quite easy for Lyanna to be at the point of everyone knowing she wasn't going to make it, without her actually dying within like the next ten minutes, such that they could give her some time with her son. Hell she could have sent people out of the room when Ned arrived because she wanted to talk to him by herself to get his promise.

As to the KG....what is this modern times where men are all over the birthing room? Men (aside from maesters) have no place and or business dealing with the actual rigors of childbirth in this world. Their entire reason for being there would be precisely to go out and fight while leaving Lyanna inside, because that is what guards do. Guards are not nursemaids, certainly not the KG. It may not seem sensible to you but it was their job to go out and fight, not stay inside and play nursemaid.

So with all that I proposed (as in past tense-check the archives) that Dayne, Whent and Hightower knew Ned was on his way (which isn't farfetched considering Ned found out where they were and nowhere is it mentioned how he found out) and had the newborn escorted away by other attendants while they gave their lives to bide enough time for the escape. The newborn would have been in grave danger if captured so I highly doubt the KG would have risked leaving the baby unprotected to fight a 3 on 6 mismatch. Doesn't seem like a good plan and Dayne, Whent and Hightower are not renown for being idiots.

Just because Ned had the information does not mean that the TOJ was as well informed. Communication is in no way comparable to what it is now and it would be very easy for Ned to get the info from someone without the TOJ knowing about it. But let's say they did, then their actions and words make even less sense. Why? Because they maintain that they are not breaking their vows, but if they did as you described and sent Jon ahead without ANY of them, then they are breaking their vows because a KG is not with the king. That is whole point of the questions about Viserys and their noting that Darry was not KG. Given that there is no record of any other knights being there, the child would have been unprotected if given to one of the servant to carry off to "safety." Dayne, Whent and Hightower were not idiots but they also did not have the power to magically make the situation to their liking. They had no support, no back up, and no ability to pick the hand they were dealt so regardless of whether they would have chosen a 3 on 7 (not 6 - it was Ned plus 6), they still had to deal with a 3 on 7. And as only 2 of the 7 survived I don't actually think they were that wrong in deciding to stand and fight.

Moreover, if Ned was trying to keep Jon's parentage a secret, why would he go to Starfall with a newborn child RIGHT AFTER leaving the ToJ. Surely the Daynes would put two and two together.

No chinks in my armor homeboy!!!!!!!

Given that there was a Dayne and likely a wetnurse also attached to House Dayne at the TOJ, there is a very good possibility that the Daynes already knew a good portion of what was going on. Even if they didn't (and I find that unlikely that they didn't know something even if not the whole picture), Ned still needed a cover and potential mother for Jon that could account for any Targ features that showed up down the road. Given the relationship between the Daynes and the Starks, and Ned's history with Ashara, it would be a good place to go, as House Dayne was still loyal to the Targaryen and what Ned needed at that point was people who would have no interest in letting Robert know. It wouldn't be a risk to include House Dayne, since they were already complicit in any treason by giving aid to Rhaegar via Wylla.

[Techelles]

There are a lot of things I find unlikely. We know there was someone with Howland Reed when he entered the room and found Ned with Lyanna. So what does that mean? When Ned walked into the room it was just Lyanna there with her newborn child? So what, the KG was there to protect Rhaegar's child (instead of being with him on the Trident or with his dad at King's Landing) yet they left Lyanna unattended, bleeding on her deathbed with a baby in the room so they could confront Ned and his company? That doesn't seem very sensible to me. Assuming the person that enters the room with Howland Reed is the midwife or maester (considering only Howland and Ned survived the fight), why would she or he leave Lyanna unattended WITH A NEWBORN, even for a second? Lyanna was lying in a bed of blood and died shortly after Ned arrives so it's very likely whoever delivered her baby knew she was on the verge of dying. So leaving a dying Lyanna alone with a newborn seems careless and very unlikely.

So with all that I proposed (as in past tense-check the archives) that Dayne, Whent and Hightower knew Ned was on his way (which isn't farfetched considering Ned found out where they were and nowhere is it mentioned how he found out) and had the newborn escorted away by other attendants while they gave their lives to bide enough time for the escape. The newborn would have been in grave danger if captured so I highly doubt the KG would have risked leaving the baby unprotected to fight a 3 on 6 mismatch. Doesn't seem like a good plan and Dayne, Whent and Hightower are not renown for being idiots.

Moreover, if Ned was trying to keep Jon's parentage a secret, why would he go to Starfall with a newborn child RIGHT AFTER leaving the ToJ. Surely the Daynes would put two and two together.

No chinks in my armor homeboy!!!!!!!

You're trying very hard to make things not work...but it really can be pretty simple. First of all, Lyanna was dying. There was nothing anyone could have done for her. Do you really think that the KG would have been more useful playing doctor than fighting the men outside the tower? And why should we think that Lyanna was alone with her baby when Ned found her? I expect when Ned came in, he ordered Wylla to take the baby and get out of the room. All in all, your scenario is seems pretty exaggerated and unnecessary. There's nothing there that strains credulity or that can't reasonably be explained another way.

I agree that the KG probably knew Ned was coming. They certainly didn't seem surprised to see him. But that doesn't mean that they had much notice or that they could have just packed the baby off if they'd wanted to (not that they would have). If the baby was important, at least one KG would have gone with it to fulfill the vow. If it wasn't important, they wouldn't have cared one way or the other; in fact, they'd have been with Viserys. And send it away with whom? Just plain old servants? I doubt it. The KG don't pass the buck, especially not to wetnurses and midwives, which the conversation in front of the tower makes very clear. (Besides, I'm still not sure that there was more than one other person there. We never hear about them, and they all would have been loose ends for Ned.) You say the KG wouldn't have left the baby inside the tower unprotected while they fought Ned, but then you say they sent it off with servants...unprotected. I don't buy it. Also, by being outside and fighting Ned, they were protecting the baby. Which is the whole point. They did the only thing they could have done, given the circumstances.

As for Starfall, the most likely scenario is that Ned went to drop off Dawn and Wylla the midwife/wetnurse, whom Ned found with Lyanna at the tower. The two of them decided to pose as Jon's parents to protect him. To make the story believable, Ned wanted the people of Starfall to see him, Wylla, and the baby together. He certainly couldn't take her north where all his own men could question her. And the people in Starfall knew nothing except that Ned dropped off a woman and a baby and said it was his. We don't know if any Daynes knew about the ToJ. If it was only Ashara, which seems likely to me, whatever she put together doesn't matter.

ETA: atpthornton beat me to it.

[Twinslayer]

Rhaegar and Lyanna were married (pologymy had been accepted by past targaryn's). This is the reason Ned had her buried in the crypts alongside lords of Winterfell and Kings of the north - he knew she was royalty. His promise to her was to keep Jon safe and hidden (from Robert and the Lannisters) because she knew the war was over and the Targaryn's had lost and been destroyed. I do think that she was abducted by Rhaegar and the marriage was forced on her to make the baby legitimate and fulfill the prophycy that Rhaegar was obsessed with. The King's Guards were there to a) protect her and the child but also to B) stop Lyanna from escaping. The Tower of Joy was, essentially, Lyanna's prison which could explain why Ned destroyed it.

I don't think Ned buried Lyanna in the crypts on this basis because he also buried Brandon there and -- as far as Ned was concerned -- Brandon was never a Lord. Ned believes that Lord Rickard watched Brandon die.

On the question about whether Lyanna was taken by force, a lot of people think that because Ned muses that Rhaegar probably did not visit brothels, Ned respected Rhaegar. I think that statement is ambiguous. I put more stock in the fact that Ned thinks that Rhaegar passing over Elia to name Lyanna queen of love and beauty was a bad thing. Specifically, Ned says that when this happened, all the smiles (presumably, including Ned's) died. He also thinks about the crown of blue roses (that Rhaegar gave to Lyanna) as having thorns underneath.

Contrast this with Robert's arrival at Winterfell. The first thing Robert wants to do is to snub his wife, Cersei, by heading to the Winterfell crypts to pay respects to Lyanna. Do all the smiles die? No, Ned "loved him for that."

[Addam of Hull]

I don't think Ned buried Lyanna in the crypts on this basis because he also buried Brandon there and -- as far as Ned was concerned -- Brandon was never a Lord. Ned believes that Lord Rickard watched Brandon die.

On the question about whether Lyanna was taken by force, a lot of people think that because Ned muses that Rhaegar probably did not visit brothels, Ned respected Rhaegar. I think that statement is ambiguous. I put more stock in the fact that Ned thinks that Rhaegar passing over Elia to name Lyanna queen of love and beauty was a bad thing. Specifically, Ned says that when this happened, all the smiles (presumably, including Ned's) died. He also thinks about the crown of blue roses (that Rhaegar gave to Lyanna) as having thorns underneath.

Contrast this with Robert's arrival at Winterfell. The first thing Robert wants to do is to snub his wife, Cersei, by heading to the Winterfell crypts to pay respects to Lyanna. Do all the smiles die? No, Ned "loved him for that."

I'd agree that it's not really enough to say Ned respected Rhaegar based on that one line. We do get a sense that he doesn't feel an strong negative emotions about the man that supposedly raped his sister.

Comparing the Tourny at Harrenhal and Robert arriving at Winterfell and Ned's reactions isn't really that helpful. Regardless of how Ned may have felt about it, Lyanna being crowned Queen of Love and Beauty must have been a shock to everyone and the insult was strongly felt, I'd wager. Whatever happened between them, Rhaegar and Lyanna indirectly caused a bloody war to erupt that cost many men their lives, including their own. Likely that's what the thorns are in reference to. The situation is inherently different Robert because they're as close as brothers, they grieved Lyanna together, and even though Lyanna seemed to be against it, Robert was betrothed to her. It's much more personal. The situations are inherently different and we can't really judge one based off of the other. Ned can have a respect for Rhaegar and still be unhappy with his crowning of her, especially since that event sets off a chain that culminates in the death of his sister.

[Jon Icefyre]

I don't think Ned buried Lyanna in the crypts on this basis because he also buried Brandon there and -- as far as Ned was concerned -- Brandon was never a Lord. Ned believes that Lord Rickard watched Brandon die.

On the question about whether Lyanna was taken by force, a lot of people think that because Ned muses that Rhaegar probably did not visit brothels, Ned respected Rhaegar. I think that statement is ambiguous. I put more stock in the fact that Ned thinks that Rhaegar passing over Elia to name Lyanna queen of love and beauty was a bad thing. Specifically, Ned says that when this happened, all the smiles (presumably, including Ned's) died. He also thinks about the crown of blue roses (that Rhaegar gave to Lyanna) as having thorns underneath.

Contrast this with Robert's arrival at Winterfell. The first thing Robert wants to do is to snub his wife, Cersei, by heading to the Winterfell crypts to pay respects to Lyanna. Do all the smiles die? No, Ned "loved him for that."

Well of course Ned is gonna think that about Rhaegar's situation with Lyanna when it ultimately led to the death of Ned's father, brother, a rebellion, and then the eventual death of Lyanna who left behind a parentless son, I mean who wouldn't? The situation with Robert was a bit different because Lyanna was already dead and Ned appreciated the fact that her memory was still with him years after her death when Robert was known to be a whoring womanizer. I don't think Ned's disapproval of Rhaegar's action at the TOH in anyway supports the idea that Rhaear took Lyanna by force or that he didn't respect Rhaegar, his disapproval is speaking to the events that occurred after the TOH because of Rhaegar and Lyanna's love/relationship. Also your forgetting to mention that while people do use the Rhaegar brothal thing as support that Rhaegar didn't take Lyanna by force and that Ned might have respected the guy, they use that as evidence in combination with the knowledge that Ned doesn't really mention Rhaegar a lot so if Rhaegar really did rape Lyanna or take her by force then why don't we get any real evidence from Ned's thoughts that prove this? Instead we get Ned using a comparison between Rhaegar and Robert going to brothels, in which Ned seems to favor Rhaegar in that specific situation. You can understand people's suspicion/curiosity of Ned's thoughts because of this can't you?

[Dragonfish]

I don't see any room for legitimate debate about the meaning of the SSM. He was asked why the KG stayed at the TOJ, not why they went there in the first place.

SFDanny wasn't offering an explanation for why the Kingsguard went there either. He was saying that even if they were ordered to stay there by Rhaegar, as they surely were (given George's words here, which are corroborated by the app), this still doesn't address whether or not there existed any conflict between their orders and their primary vow to protect the king. George doesn't mention it at all.

But let's set that aside and focus on your (very good) point about how the KG respond to conflicting obligations. Suppose that Rhaegar ordered them to make sure Lyanna did not fall into the hands of the rebels. First, we know from Barristan that their first instinct would be that the order survives the death of the person giving it, because he thinks Cersei should honor Robert's will.

Not a comparable example. There is no conflict between honoring Robert's will and protecting the king. It was also, you know, a will, which is designed to give instructions for what to do after a person dies. In contrast, the Kingsguard at the ToJ would've been following an order made by Rhaegar early on in the war, and we have no reason to suspect the Rhaegar wished for this order to last past his death and the death of most of the royal family.

Second, we know that when other KG have faced conflicting obligations, sometimes they have tried to follow both and sometimes they have chosen between the two. The best example probably comes from the Hedge Knight, where the KG in the trial of seven faced a conflict between obeying an order and defending a prince. They tried to accomplish both.

You're right, they could've tried to accomplish both. There's no way they could accomplish both by staying, though.

So apply this logic to the 3 KG at the TOJ. They would want to be sure Viserys was safe -- which at the time he was, since he was on Dragonstone protected by the Targ fleet

Viserys was not safe on Dragonstone. The garrison very nearly sold him and Daenerys to Robert.

And again, the issue is not whether or not the king is safe, but whether or not he has Kindgsguard protection.

[Ygrain]

Of course, there are other examples. When Dany flies away from Meereen on Drogon's back, Barristan has the choice of going looking for her or staying and staying in Meereen and doing what he thought she would want him to do. He chooses the latter.

So it is entirely possible that the KG at the TOJ were keeping their oath to obey Rhaegar or that they were trying to keep that oath and get to Viserys as soon as it was practical to do so. This does not prove that Jon was not the king. But it does demonstrate that the KG presence at the TOJ does not prove that Jon was the king.

Comparing apples and oranges again, as the situation of Dany and Viserys are not the same. Dany could not be found; if Barristan went looking for her, he might well have spent the rest of his life doing so. Viserys was at a particular known location and all it required was to go to Starfall or elsewhere and take a ship.

Besides, you can't keep oaths only when it is practical or convenient; you keep it all the time, no matter what. If your oath demands you to be somewhere, then you do your best to reach that place or die trying.

There are a lot of things I find unlikely. We know there was someone with Howland Reed when he entered the room and found Ned with Lyanna. So what does that mean? When Ned walked into the room it was just Lyanna there with her newborn child? So what, the KG was there to protect Rhaegar's child (instead of being with him on the Trident or with his dad at King's Landing) yet they left Lyanna unattended, bleeding on her deathbed with a baby in the room so they could confront Ned and his company? That doesn't seem very sensible to me. Assuming the person that enters the room with Howland Reed is the midwife or maester (considering only Howland and Ned survived the fight), why would she or he leave Lyanna unattended WITH A NEWBORN, even for a second? Lyanna was lying in a bed of blood and died shortly after Ned arrives so it's very likely whoever delivered her baby knew she was on the verge of dying. So leaving a dying Lyanna alone with a newborn seems careless and very unlikely.

Just one thing that has not been addressed yet: bleeding after delivery is a natural process of self-cleaning the womb and takes a couple of weeks. With birthing complications, it would be stronger but that doesn't mean that the person would necessarily be bleeding to death; infection would be the major problem there.

And, just BTW, why should the child be in the same room with Lyanna if it could be anywhere else in the tower?

On the question about whether Lyanna was taken by force, a lot of people think that because Ned muses that Rhaegar probably did not visit brothels, Ned respected Rhaegar. I think that statement is ambiguous. I put more stock in the fact that Ned thinks that Rhaegar passing over Elia to name Lyanna queen of love and beauty was a bad thing. Specifically, Ned says that when this happened, all the smiles (presumably, including Ned's) died. He also thinks about the crown of blue roses (that Rhaegar gave to Lyanna) as having thorns underneath.

The fact that the smiles died doesn't mean that it was viewed by Ned as a bad thing, either - Rhaegar did something totally unexpected and people can't really smile with their jaws dropped.

Also, Ned's musing about Rhaegar is not important because of the actual content (visiting brothels) but because he draws a comparison between his sister's betrothed and her supposed rapist, in favour of the rapist. That's the clue.

[The Killer Snark]

Rhaegar never took Lyanna by force. Think about it. It's completely out of character for one thing, and he was apparently one of the most handsome men in Westeros. I've doubted the 'violation' of Lyanna' for some time, but now I figure that there was none. Lyanna simply absconded. If she'd been raped, then died giving birth to Jon, would she have made Ned give his promise to bring Jon up as his son? And, if this were the case, would Ned in doing so have treated Jon with any affection? The honour of his sister being paramount, Ned would have had an easier time explaining that his sister had been violated by Rhaegar, but the fact she's slept with the enemy proves a bit more problematic. Hence, he'd prefer to keep his sister's 'virtuous reputation' intact and pass off Jon as his own.

[Greymoon]

How could Lyanna and Rhaegar stay in contact after Harrenhall? That's one thing that I truly don't understand for the following reasons:

A secret correspondence per raven, would have been difficult, as ravens send to Winterfell would first land into the maester's and later Rickard's hands.

There's been speculation that Rickard knew of his daughter's plans, but somehow, I doubt that.

A rider would have been difficult too...

I think the best guess is that whatever they had planned, they had already agreed on most of it at the tourney. Later, it's possible, Rhaegar would send one message with a rider he trusted dearly just to keep Lyanna 'updated'. A regular correspondence seems unlikely to me.

Or was someone from Rhaegar's side in Winterfell? Someone who'd somehow cover for them? -

Or... was someone else pulling the strings all along? A player in the shadows, who like Petyr and Varys loves to watch and observe and sit back whilst the realm is imploding?

What role did Winterfell's maester play in all this, for one? We know the citadel doesn't like Targaryens. We know Aemon was send to the wall... so why not speculate the rebellion was in planned/counted on by the citadel? How easy would it have been for a figure of wisdom and authority to influence the mind of a young girl?

Lyanna might have been swayed easily if someone who in her mind was wise and knowledgeable, told her it was 'fine' and legitimate to be involved with the crown prince and become his second wife... In that case, if the maester was in any way involved, then a secret correspondence by raven (secret here being, Rickard does not know) is really quite plausible.

I don't recall the name of Winterfell's maester at the time.... but I think I've read something way back about the possibility of a conspiracy against the Targaryen dynasty by the Citadel? We have Marwyn's comments to Sam to support this idea (= it was good Aemon died in Braavos because he would not have been welcome in Old Town/the Grand Maesters do not like the return of the Dragons and magic)

[Jon Icefyre]

How could Lyanna and Rhaegar stay in contact after Harrenhall? That's one thing that I truly don't understand for the following reasons:

A secret correspondence per raven, would have been difficult, as ravens send to Winterfell would first land into the maester's and later Rickard's hands.

There's been speculation that Rickard knew of his daughter's plans, but somehow, I doubt that.

A rider would have been difficult too...

I think the best guess is that whatever they had planned, they had already agreed on most of it at the tourney. Later, it's possible, Rhaegar would send one message with a rider he trusted dearly just to keep Lyanna 'updated'. A regular correspondence seems unlikely to me.

Or was someone from Rhaegar's side in Winterfell? Someone who'd somehow cover for them? -

Or... was someone else pulling the strings all along? A player in the shadows, who like Petyr and Varys loves to watch and observe and sit back whilst the realm is imploding?

What role did Winterfell's maester play in all this, for one? We know the citadel doesn't like Targaryens. We know Aemon was send to the wall... so why not speculate the rebellion was in planned/counted on by the citadel? How easy would it have been for a figure of wisdom and authority to influence the mind of a young girl?

Lyanna might have been swayed easily if someone who in her mind was wise and knowledgeable, told her it was 'fine' and legitimate to be involved with the crown prince and become his second wife... In that case, if the maester was in any way involved, then a secret correspondence by raven (secret here being, Rickard does not know) is really quite plausible.

I don't recall the name of Winterfell's maester at the time.... but I think I've read something way back about the possibility of a conspiracy against the Targaryen dynasty by the Citadel? We have Marwyn's comments to Sam to support this idea (= it was good Aemon died in Braavos because he would not have been welcome in Old Town/the Grand Maesters do not like the return of the Dragons and magic)

While I do agree that something shady is definitely going on with the maesters/citadel, I feel I should clearify that Aemon wasn't sent to the wall by the citadel or anyone else for that matter he nominated himself/volunteered to go of his own free will in order to take himself out of the Targ royal line of succession. Because he did not wan't to be king and was afraid some would try to use him in a plot to usurp his brother. It was his own decision and idea to go to the wall, it wasn't a punishment of any sort.

[Stark Born Again]

Rhaegar never took Lyanna by force. Think about it. It's completely out of character for one thing, and he was apparently one of the most handsome men in Westeros. I've doubted the 'violation' of Lyanna' for some time, but now I figure that there was none. Lyanna simply absconded. If she'd been raped, then died giving birth to Jon, would she have made Ned give his promise to bring Jon up as his son? And, if this were the case, would Ned in doing so have treated Jon with any affection? The honour of his sister being paramount, Ned would have had an easier time exclaiming that his sister had been violated by Rhaegar, but the fact she's slept with the enemy proves a bit more problematic. Hence, he'd prefer to keep his sister's 'virtuous reputation' intact and pass off Jon as his own.

I don't think he raped her but rather convinced her that she was chosen to be the mother of his 3rd child fulfilling the prophesy. I think she willingly married him and became pregnant but was then kept somewhat of a prisoner - why else did she not contact her family at all. I think at the end she feared that Rhaegar was perhaps prone to some madness regarding his total belief of the prophesy that she wanted her son far away from the Targaryns as possible and, if she was aware of the way the war was going, as far away from Robert and the Lannisters as well. When she first met Rhaegar she was very young, willful, protected and somewhat naive - how easy was it for her to imagine herself deeply in love (somewhat like Sansa did) but nothing will make a female mature faster than a pregnancy and she probably began to see things as they actually were. It's the absolute silence towards her family (and they were from all reports a close and loving family) that make me tend to believe that she was kept a virtual prisoner albeit in comfort for most of her stay at TOJ. Even if she thought her family would strongly disapprove of her actions I find it hard to believe she didn't try to contact them to ask for their understanding/forgiveness.

[House Draper]

2A. Aegon is the next rightful heir and is dead.

2B. Jon if he is legitmate is an heir ahead of Viserys.They are not forsaking their vow, and they explicitly state that they are acting on their vow. Jaime says that the vow is to protect and defend the king. Their orders may have kept them at the tower until Jon was born, but their vow keeps them afterwards.

Correct. I should have added Aegon in there, but I left out Jon for the sake of the arguing with whichever poster suggested that they were staying at the ToJ on Rhaegar's last orders to protect Lyanna. Like I said, the only reason they would be there is because they are not breaking their vows and are not remaining there of their own accord or else they would have been protecting Viserys, not Lyanna(/Jon).

I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't saying they abandoned their vows. I was simply stating that by keeping their vow to protect the king (Jon), they were following orders. A previous poster had suggested that they were staying at the ToJ, because it was the last order given by Rhaegar, and they posited that since GRRM mentioned that the KG never make and follow their own orders, that they were only staying there bc at that point there wasn't another king to give them orders and they were following Rhaegar's last orders before he died.

I was simply stating that they were following orders by protecting the king (Jon), because their vows, in the absence of any direct orders from a king, are their orders. Sorry, I feel like that's totally convoluted, but I was arguing the exact same thing you just said. Only I didn't include Jon in the line of succession in order to illuminate the fact that, by that previous poster's logic, the KG should have been with, or on their way to, Viserys. They would have been if Jon weren't there.

[Ygrain]

How could Lyanna and Rhaegar stay in contact after Harrenhall? That's one thing that I truly don't understand for the following reasons:

A secret correspondence per raven, would have been difficult, as ravens send to Winterfell would first land into the maester's and later Rickard's hands.

There's been speculation that Rickard knew of his daughter's plans, but somehow, I doubt that.

A rider would have been difficult too...

I think the best guess is that whatever they had planned, they had already agreed on most of it at the tourney. Later, it's possible, Rhaegar would send one message with a rider he trusted dearly just to keep Lyanna 'updated'. A regular correspondence seems unlikely to me.

Or was someone from Rhaegar's side in Winterfell? Someone who'd somehow cover for them? -

Or... was someone else pulling the strings all along? A player in the shadows, who like Petyr and Varys loves to watch and observe and sit back whilst the realm is imploding?

What role did Winterfell's maester play in all this, for one? We know the citadel doesn't like Targaryens. We know Aemon was send to the wall... so why not speculate the rebellion was in planned/counted on by the citadel? How easy would it have been for a figure of wisdom and authority to influence the mind of a young girl?

Lyanna might have been swayed easily if someone who in her mind was wise and knowledgeable, told her it was 'fine' and legitimate to be involved with the crown prince and become his second wife... In that case, if the maester was in any way involved, then a secret correspondence by raven (secret here being, Rickard does not know) is really quite plausible.

I don't recall the name of Winterfell's maester at the time.... but I think I've read something way back about the possibility of a conspiracy against the Targaryen dynasty by the Citadel? We have Marwyn's comments to Sam to support this idea (= it was good Aemon died in Braavos because he would not have been welcome in Old Town/the Grand Maesters do not like the return of the Dragons and magic)

We don

't know, however, where Lyanna spent the whole time between Harrenhall and the supposed kidnpping. We know that at one point, she was at Winterfell with Ned, but it doesn't mean that she was there the whole time. It has been argued that as a future wife of a Southern lord, she needed to be groomed for her role and may have been staying e.g. with the Whents who were related by marriage to the Tullys, and in such a case, correspondence via a trusted messenger would not have been impossible.

I don't think he raped her but rather convinced her that she was chosen to be the mother of his 3rd child fulfilling the prophesy. I think she willingly married him and became pregnant but was then kept somewhat of a prisoner - why else did she not contact her family at all. I think at the end she feared that Rhaegar was perhaps prone to some madness regarding his total belief of the prophesy that she wanted her son far away from the Targaryns as possible and, if she was aware of the way the war was going, as far away from Robert and the Lannisters as well. When she first met Rhaegar she was very young, willful, protected and somewhat naive - how easy was it for her to imagine herself deeply in love (somewhat like Sansa did) but nothing will make a female mature faster than a pregnancy and she probably began to see things as they actually were. It's the absolute silence towards her family (and they were from all reports a close and loving family) that make me tend to believe that she was kept a virtual prisoner albeit in comfort for most of her stay at TOJ. Even if she thought her family would strongly disapprove of her actions I find it hard to believe she didn't try to contact them to ask for their understanding/forgiveness.

The thing is that she may have done so but we haven't learned yet, and there is definitely some space left. Brandon yells for Rhaegar to come out and die, not to release Lyanna at once (a reaction consistent with seduction of his "little sister" but not necessarily kidnapping), Rickard doesn't request Lyanna back, either (as far as we know), and Ned goes to ToJ in a small company of his close friends as if he knew what he might expect there. - Ned's knowledge may come from other sources than Lyanna but the way he reminiscences her last words, it seems that she was clinging to life for some time as if waiting for him to come, so I believe that some communication may have taken place.

[MtnLion]

Aaaaaand my theories are centered on the fact that Ned said he had been living his lies (as in plural). If Jon is simply R+L then what is the other lie or lies Ned is referring to.

Those lies were the single stain on Ned's honor.