R+L=J v.41

[Queen of Procrastination]

I'll try homeboy.

1. The KG were at the ToJ and under Rhaegar's orders to prevent what happened to his other two kids (maybe he had dragon dreams).

2. Jon's parents are....I dunno, maybe Lyanna is his mom (which would explain why he can't tell Robert the truth and instead tells him Wylla is his mom) and baby Jon was moved from the ToJ to Star fall; causing Ned to go there after Lyanna died. Or maybe Ashara is his mom and Brandon is his father.

3. Ned made a mystery of Jon's mom because if he revealed Lyanna was the mom Robert would deduce that the father is Rhaegar and he would be distraught. If he said Ashara was the mom then people would deduce that Brandon raped her. (Barristan seems to think as much. He thinks one of the Stark brothers shamed her but when talking about Ned he always mentions how honorable he was).

I am female! And I am not your homeboy!

[Queen of Procrastination]

Haha, how could Brandon being Jon's dad be disproven? Everything is a theory, we have been given no definite answers to anything. Just like we can't "prove" Jon is the son of Rhaegar. If you follow my entire convo with the guy I was originally debating with you'll see all I was trying to say was that whatever child was born at the ToJ wasn't there when Ned got there. Then he asked me 3 questions and I just tried to answer them. Those 3 questions weren't a part of my original argument, that's why I started my response with "I'll try homeboy".

My theory isn't centered on Brandon being Jon's dad. That's not what I'm tryna say. That's why I said maybe when I was answering the other guy's question.

She asked you!

You haven't heard those theories? They abound, actually. Bruh.

Also, "homeboy" is named Lady of Whisperers for a reason. And if you posit a theory, expect it to be attacked from every angle, because the whole appeal of R+L=J is overall consistency. No one here will be satisfied with anything less. Just be aware of that as you speculate.

Thank you Techelles.

@ Blackfyre the bold when someone names herself Lady you can be 98% sure that this person is female!

[Budj]

And now I can't get 'home girl' out of my head which in turn is making me think about workaholics.

[Queen of Procrastination]

@ Balckfyre the Bold

Like the oithers said what you said was quite confusing.

So who´s Jon´s dad?

Brandon (and Ashara his mom), Rhaegar or another person.

Who´s Aegon the real child of Lyanna and Rhaegar?

I don´t understand your "theory".

Did you read the posts the others made about the vows of the KG?

[MtnLion]

@ Balckfyre the Bold

Like the oithers said what you said was quite confusing.

So who´s Jon´s dad?

Brandon (and Ashara his mom), Rhaegar or another person.

Who´s Aegon the real child of Lyanna and Rhaegar?

I don´t understand your "theory".

Did you read the posts the others made about the vows of the KG?

He may have read them, but from his response to my post . . . well, it seems I didn't make any sense to him.

[Jon Icefyre]

I am female! And I am not your homeboy!

Hahaha i've been waiting for what seems like forever for you to correct him on this it was really starting to annoy the shit out of me. I was tempted to say something myself but I thought it would be better if he heard it straight from you :box: .

[Ygrain]

And now I can't get 'home girl' out of my head which in turn is making me think about workaholics.

I'd exchange that for the image of Ned performing C-section on Lyanna with Ice any time...

[Queen of Procrastination]

Hahaha i've been waiting for what seems like forever for you to correct him on this it was really starting to annoy the shit out of me. I was tempted to say something myself but I thought it would be better if he heard it straight from you :box: .

Thank you it annoyed me too :cheers:

I didn´t say something because I just came back to the forum this evening and first wanted to read all the posts before I respond.

[Erudain]

@ Blackfyre the bold when someone names herself Lady you can be 98% sure that this person is female!

Ahhh if I told you how many ladies I've met that came with a "surprise"...erhhh I mean...lets get back on topic....

[Budj]

I'd exchange that for the image of Ned performing C-section on Lyanna with Ice any time...

I lol'd at that one. If we had a like button I wouldn't have wasted the forum space, but alas....'like'

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

How could Lyanna and Rhaegar stay in contact after Harrenhall? That's one thing that I truly don't understand for the following reasons:

A secret correspondence per raven, would have been difficult, as ravens send to Winterfell would first land into the maester's and later Rickard's hands.

There's been speculation that Rickard knew of his daughter's plans, but somehow, I doubt that.

A rider would have been difficult too...

I think the best guess is that whatever they had planned, they had already agreed on most of it at the tourney. Later, it's possible, Rhaegar would send one message with a rider he trusted dearly just to keep Lyanna 'updated'. A regular correspondence seems unlikely to me.

Or was someone from Rhaegar's side in Winterfell? Someone who'd somehow cover for them? -

Or... was someone else pulling the strings all along? A player in the shadows, who like Petyr and Varys loves to watch and observe and sit back whilst the realm is imploding?

What role did Winterfell's maester play in all this, for one? We know the citadel doesn't like Targaryens. We know Aemon was send to the wall... so why not speculate the rebellion was in planned/counted on by the citadel? How easy would it have been for a figure of wisdom and authority to influence the mind of a young girl?

Lyanna might have been swayed easily if someone who in her mind was wise and knowledgeable, told her it was 'fine' and legitimate to be involved with the crown prince and become his second wife... In that case, if the maester was in any way involved, then a secret correspondence by raven (secret here being, Rickard does not know) is really quite plausible.

I don't recall the name of Winterfell's maester at the time.... but I think I've read something way back about the possibility of a conspiracy against the Targaryen dynasty by the Citadel? We have Marwyn's comments to Sam to support this idea (= it was good Aemon died in Braavos because he would not have been welcome in Old Town/the Grand Maesters do not like the return of the Dragons and magic)

Didn't I read somewhere (app? Wiki?) that Lyanna went to KL after HH? Knowing both those sources can be wrong, does anyone have additional input on that? I'm not in a place to research it right now, but it seems like if that is confirmed, there's the answer to potential communication between R+L post HH.

Also, yes there was something about Rickard's maester. His name is mentioned somewhere, and Barbrey Dustin mentions him as the architect of Rickard's marriage plans for his children.

[Stark Born Again]

The thing is that she may have done so but we haven't learned yet, and there is definitely some space left. Brandon yells for Rhaegar to come out and die, not to release Lyanna at once (a reaction consistent with seduction of his "little sister" but not necessarily kidnapping), Rickard doesn't request Lyanna back, either (as far as we know), and Ned goes to ToJ in a small company of his close friends as if he knew what he might expect there. - Ned's knowledge may come from other sources than Lyanna but the way he reminiscences her last words, it seems that she was clinging to life for some time as if waiting for him to come, so I believe that some communication may have taken place.

You make very good points regarding Rickard and Brandon's demands while at KL. It does seem as though Ned, after the fall of KL was on a journey with the sole purpose of finding Lyanna - she wasn't at KL and he then tried (my memory sucks) a couple of other places prior to going to TOJ so, I don't think he had received word directly from Lyanna but from someone else. Perhaps Lyanna managed to send a message to one of the other places (I think Storms was one of the places he travelled to). Is it possible that prior to smuggling the food (onions) into Stannis that Davos had earlier visited Dorne and been given a message to be forwarded to Ned via Stannis? The fact that Ned took the time to destroy the Tower seems to suggest that he wanted it and what it stood for gone. I know he used the stones to bury his men but that could have been done easier and quicker than tearing down the tower. I'm pretty well convinced that someone in Dorne knew about Lyanna being at TOJ and probably that she had given birth (or was due to give birth). Perhaps this is one of the reasons why they come into prominence in the next book after being somewhat secondary characters up until this point in time.

[MtnLion]

Didn't I read somewhere (app? Wiki?) that Lyanna went to KL after HH? Knowing both those sources can be wrong, does anyone have additional input on that? I'm not in a place to research it right now, but it seems like if that is confirmed, there's the answer to potential communication between R+L post HH.

Also, yes there was something about Rickard's maester. His name is mentioned somewhere, and Barbrey Dustin mentions him as the architect of Rickard's marriage plans for his children.

At one time, one of the synopsis of events had Lyanna being abducted from King's Landing. I challenged that, as I had never found anything in canon saying where Lyanna had been after Harrenhal. So, now the wiki states that Lyanna was abducted, but we have no clue from where. In hindsight it does make sense that Lyanna went to King's Landing as a lady in waiting with Elia and Ashara. I just wish the infuriating lack of information would clarify itself, soon.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

You make very good points regarding Rickard and Brandon's demands while at KL. It does seem as though Ned, after the fall of KL was on a journey with the sole purpose of finding Lyanna - she wasn't at KL and he then tried (my memory sucks) a couple of other places prior to going to TOJ so, I don't think he had received word directly from Lyanna but from someone else. Perhaps Lyanna managed to send a message to one of the other places (I think Storms was one of the places he travelled to). Is it possible that prior to smuggling the food (onions) into Stannis that Davos had earlier visited Dorne and been given a message to be forwarded to Ned via Stannis? The fact that Ned took the time to destroy the Tower seems to suggest that he wanted it and what it stood for gone. I know he used the stones to bury his men but that could have been done easier and quicker than tearing down the tower. I'm pretty well convinced that someone in Dorne knew about Lyanna being at TOJ and probably that she had given birth (or was due to give birth). Perhaps this is one of the reasons why they come into prominence in the next book after being somewhat secondary characters up until this point in time.

I don't think we are given any reason to believe Ned looked for Lyanna anywhere other than ToJ. For one thing, the timeline really doesn't support a search. Everything we know seems to point to him going directly there from Storm's End. Also, if you haven't read it I would point you to Dunk's dream in "The Sworn Sword" for insight into how difficult a single burial in Dorne could be. To lay eight warriors to rest there would be a monumental task, requiring eight cairns which would require an enormous amount of stone, ergo the destruction of the Tower. Looking at it purely as a practical task (which it was) pretty much removes the necessity for reading too much into it.

I do agree that someone had given Ned information pre ToJ, and that learning more about Dorne and its inhabitants will prove very important.

[Twinslayer]

I don't think we are given any reason to believe Ned looked for Lyanna anywhere other than ToJ. For one thing, the timeline really doesn't support a search. Everything we know seems to point to him going directly there from Storm's End. Also, if you haven't read it I would point you to Dunk's dream in "The Sworn Sword" for insight into how difficult a single burial in Dorne could be. To lay eight warriors to rest there would be a monumental task, requiring eight cairns which would require an enormous amount of stone, ergo the destruction of the Tower. Looking at it purely as a practical task (which it was) pretty much removes the necessity for reading too much into it.

I do agree that someone had given Ned information pre ToJ, and that learning more about Dorne and its inhabitants will prove very important.

This raises an interesting question: what actually happened between Ned leaving King's Landing and his arrival at the TOJ? We are told that Ned left King's Landing the day Tywin presented the bodies of Rhaegar's children to Robert:

Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone.

So Ned fought at least two battles, and maybe more, after leaving King's Landing.

If you consider the fight at the TOJ to be one of those "battles," it is implied that that is the last one.

"Now it ends."

There has to be at least one more battle, and there could be others.

It is implied that there was no battle at Storm's End:

I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege . . . and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty."

So where did the other battle (or battles) take place?

[The guy from the Vale]

I interpret this as Ned's intention at the time: fighting all the battles that were left necessary to win the war. He expected one at SE, but didn't get one there. There was one at the ToJ, but Ned couldn't know these would be the only battles... or even if he did know, he pretended otherwise towards others.

[Blackfyre the Bold]

Thank you it annoyed me too :cheers:

I didn´t say something because I just came back to the forum this evening and first wanted to read all the posts before I respond.

Hmmmmmmmmm, okay. By the time I had to reference our conversation to someone else the convo was 2 or 3 pages back. I didn't go back to verify if you were a girl or boy, suuuuuuuuuue me. Honestly, people are too uptight around here. Alright you're not my homeboy, does everyone feel better to see me say it? I didn't look at your username when I replied to your comment, my SINCEREST apologies, next time I'll make sure to acknowledge you. Oh, and also, sorry for calling you "homeboy". I didn't realize you would be offended; probably a bit too "urban" for your tastes huh?

Now, in regards to my theory. Anyone can read the text and find evidence to construct a theory and support it; doesn't make it true. Just like anyone can find evidence to dispute someone else's theory. The series was clearly written to allow for that. So you, or anyone else getting upset or catching feelings because someone proposes a theory that doesn't follow your line of thinking is WACK.

I suggested that there was no child present when Ned arrived at the ToJ. Guess what? No where in the text is it made clear that Ned found baby Jon (or whoever) when he found Lyanna. So though you may not agree with my idea it is not out of the realm of possibility, AT ALL. What was the point of you asking me who Jon's parents are? How am I even supposed to answer that question? Still, I tried to appease you with an attempt........pfft.

Hate me all you want.............homegirl. Oh whoops, I forgot, too urban!

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I interpret this as Ned's intention at the time: fighting all the battles that were left necessary to win the war. He expected one at SE, but didn't get one there. There was one at the ToJ, but Ned couldn't know these would be the only battles... or even if he did know, he pretended otherwise towards others.

I tend to agree with this. It all comes back to the timeline and the map. So little time to get from KL to SE to ToJ, so few (other) places along the way. I think all of the Storm and Marcher lords had either already joined Robert or bent the knee by SE. Any other locations would be pretty much too far out of the way for Ned to reach Lyanna in time. Plus, aren't we assuming that after SE Ned was traveling with only six companions?

[Blackfyre the Bold]

@ Balckfyre the Bold

Like the oithers said what you said was quite confusing.

So who´s Jon´s dad?

Brandon (and Ashara his mom), Rhaegar or another person.

Who´s Aegon the real child of Lyanna and Rhaegar?

I don´t understand your "theory".

Did you read the posts the others made about the vows of the KG?

I don't know who Jon's dad is, do you? If so, please fill me in.

Go back a few pages, find my first post in this thread, and you will see my theory. But to sum it up, no child was present when Ned found Lyanna, consequently throwing all we thought about Jon's parentage into question.

Or, I can be a good yes man and just agree to whatever ideas you propose ;)

[Ser Leftwich]

Allow me to add some logical and likely insight.

Is there any mention of a maester, midwife, nurse, etc. (anyone to help Lyanna in the birthing process)? I don't recall. And I find it unlikely that Rhaegar would not provide all the necessities required for the birth of his child. That is why it is logical and likely that Rhaegar and Lyanna's child was long removed from the ToJ when Eddard arrives OR in the process of being removed. The latter would provide an explanation as to why Dayne, Whent and Hightower were standing guard outside (a distraction). It would also provide an explanation for Lyanna's state considering she was unattended. Why would Rhaegar command three rude boys like Dayne, Whent and Hightower to guard Lyanna (if he didn't lover her---he did) when they would have been of better use with him on the Trident or guarding his father at King's Landing? R+J=still out there somewhere. Rhaegar's final act was securing a heir to his throne, as his child would come before Viserys in the line of succession.

Point of note: We do not know whether or not Varys was acting under orders when he secretly replaced baby Aegon with another infant. It is possible Rhaegar had no idea Aegon would survive the war (if Aegon isn't the mummers dragon).

There is a Starkgaryen out there!

If the baby had been taken away from the ToJ, why would all three of the KG still be there? At least one of them would have gone with the baby. There is no reason that they would all stay with Lyanna if the baby was not there. This is assuming the baby is Rhaegar's heir.