Winter Fell?

[redriver]

Wonderful post as usual,Evita..I think you're perfectly correct in associating Bran with events in Winterfell towards the end of ADWD.I don't think Bran is controlling the overall weather storm,but it does look to me that he's influencing Theon's epiphany towards faith in the old gods.

And it seems he's influencing events in the Theon gift chapter with Asha's request to have Theon executed in front of the heart tree on the island.It may be a temporizing move on Asha's part,but I get a sense of a semi-conversion in her too.She's undoubtedly disgusted with fire sacrifices.The best outcome,for me is that Theon survives and Stannis experiences something that converts him towards the old gods.I can't wait to find out what happens on that island!!

Can we say that "winds are words"? :laugh:

[evita mgfs]

Wonderful post as usual,Evita..I think you're perfectly correct in associating Bran with events in Winterfell towards the end of ADWD.I don't think Bran is controlling the overall weather storm,but it does look to me that he's influencing Theon's epiphany towards faith in the old gods.

And it seems he's influencing events in the Theon gift chapter with Asha's request to have Theon executed in front of the heart tree on the island.It may be a temporizing move on Asha's part,but I get a sense of a semi-conversion in her too.She's undoubtedly disgusted with fire sacrifices.The best outcome,for me is that Theon survives and Stannis experiences something that converts him towards the old gods.I can't wait to find out what happens on that island!!

Can we say that "winds are words"? :laugh:

:agree: I totally agree with the SPOILER. I am wondering if the "leaves" will talk - and some of the north men will hear as well - we know that Theon can hear the secret language of the leaves, and Bran's powers are stronger than BR's - Bran may be able to communicate through the leaves of the ww? :cheers:

[tbc]

:agree: I totally agree with the SPOILER. I am wondering if the "leaves" will talk - and some of the north men will hear as well - we know that Theon can hear the secret language of the leaves, and Bran's powers are stronger than BR's - Bran may be able to communicate through the leaves of the ww? :cheers:

And presumably those powers would be a magnified by the blood sacrifice of killing Theon before a heart tree (as is hinted at in Bran's visions through the Winterfell heart tree).

[siknes]

It will be interesting to see who prevails in the battle for Winterfell,who makes best use of the winter storm,the pretender Stannis or the "legitimate" Bolton.

That aside,if the theory is correct this Winter won't end until there's a Stark in Winterfell again.That could prove easier said than done.But I agree this weather is sent to help the Starks.The original title of the last book in the intended trilogy was A Time for Wolves.This hints at the Starks getting their act together at last.

Reminiscent of Ned's words to Arya;

If Manderly is as smart as he seems, he knows the truth, which is why he wants Davos to bring him his "Leig Lord". The title A Time for Wolves can also reference Arya getting back where she belongs(not a faceless woman) with her She-Wolf bitch and pack, Fing up Wights. All the Stark children are tempted away from their true callings. Rob has failed, although from when I first read the meeting between Cat and Lord Frey, I knew Frey would betray them no matter what the reasoning, a vicious cunt that one is, ehy. Jon passed by not offering the Heart Tree to R'hollor, but people(back stabbers) hate change, even though it's the only logical thing to do. Arya who like most, I love, (Her and Gendry would fulfill the Stark/Baratheon ties, Robert/Lyanna) But she has turned (through countless losses) into the most vengeful characters, which has lead her to the House of Black and White, He seems to be telling her, without saying it, "Who are you" "Liar", because he knows she is a Wolf, and as has been stated by Quarthe/mystic lady the fate of the world depends on Westeros. Sansa has been failing because of her Naïve dreams of fairy tales, at least she's coming around. Bran is finding out things, but he doesn't belong as a tree, Jojen Does Sorry, off topic.

[siknes]

And presumably those powers would be a magnified by the blood sacrifice of killing Theon before a heart tree (as is hinted at in Bran's visions through the Winterfell heart tree).

Bloodraven said it is fruitless to try and communicate with the past. Bran figured out he didn't say anything about the present(Theon, your name is Theon)

[siknes]

I think 1,2 and 3 are correct.But there's good foreshadowing in Sansa's snow chapter that she'll rebuild Winterfell and set things right!

That makes sense with Sansa, but I think she will be(Stay) wife of Tyrion.(bringing a stronger bond between the N & S lands) He will be, what he is meant to be, The Hand of Queen Dany, and in some weird pediphile thing I think Jorah is to be Dany's husband, (He is the only one that truly loves Dany) Dario loves her beauty and power, that's it, not the whole package. PS. Varys will stay(live) as Master of Whispers(if he is true to his words, For the realm, For the children)- unless Tyrion goes through with his words, "I should of had the eunuch killed" or something like that when he reflects in Essos. Bran will rebuild not just WF but the Wall and castles along the Wall, with the help of tyrion-although it can work with Sansa too. Jojen will be one with the tree system, he is the true Greenseer Jon with his second love princess Val will become the King of the far North, and newly recognized realm(Maybe as the New Great Other) If Dany dies in the final battle, Gendry will be legitimized, with Varys as a witness to his lineage. Take, when she is old enough Arya as a Queen, and Sansa and Tyrion as their regents to deal with the BS of being the crown. The same family(true heir) sits the Iron Throne as in the beginning of this song. And from all the stories If the King is not in a happy(true love) marriage the realm suffers.

[redriver]

You seem to have everything worked out there,siknes.No need to order the last two novels.

If Jon is going to be the new Great Other,what happens to the old one?

[alienarea]

You seem to have everything worked out there,siknes.No need to order the last two novels.

If Jon is going to be the new Great Other,what happens to the old one?

He'll go on a quest to find out where whores go.

:dunno:

[Vine]

I like this theory. Interesting that winter actually seems to begin once every Stark is ousted out of Winterfell, I don't think GRRM would have chosen to begin winter at just any point.

I always wondered what the reason was that there "must always be a Stark in Winterfell".

[redriver]

Here are some of Tyrion's thoughts on the Sack of Winterfell from ACOK,-

He remembered Winterfell as he had last seen it.Not as grotesquely huge as Harrenhall,nor as solid and impregnable to look at as Storm's End,yet there had been a great strength in those stones,a sense that within those walls a man might feel safe.The news of the castle's fall had come as a wrenching shock."The gods gave with one hand and took with another," he muttered under his breath when Varys told him.They had given the Starks Harrenhall and taken Winterfell,a dismal exchange.[..]

Tyrion had only the vaguest memory of Theon Greyjoy from his time with the Starks.A callow youth,always smiling,skilled with a bow;it was hard to imagine him as Lord of Winterfell.The Lord of Winterfell would always be a Stark.

He remembered their godswood;the tall sentinels armored in their grey-green needles,the great oaks,the hawthorn and ash and soldier pines,and at the center the heart tree standing like some pale giant frozen in time.He could almost smell the place,earthy and brooding,the smell of centuries,and he remembered how dark the wood had been,even by day.That wood was Winterfell.It was the north.I never felt so out of place as I did when I walked there,so much an unwelcome intruder.He wondered if the Greyjoys would feel it too.The castle might be theirs,but never that godswood.Not in a year,or ten,or fifty.

Insightful stuff from Tyrion.

[Alia of the knife]

Here are some of Tyrions thoughts on the Sack of Winterfell from ACOK,-

Insightful stuff from Tyrion.

Hi Redriver, I just wanted to let you know I quoted you on the Nights King piece in the R+L thread, but I made sure you were absolutely credited as well as the "Winter Fell" thread itself, and the page number was also given.

Sometimes, it's just not enough to tell others about a great theory, but to demonstrate it.

I hope to contribute soon, but I just need to get a little time under my belt.

[redriver]

Thank you Alia.You're always welcome.

[m00mba]

Very interesting thread. Good work!

[Saint Alia]

I want to firstly applaud everyone who has made a contribution to this thread - I have enjoyed reading it immensely - and I certainly see the validity of quite a few of the theories that have been put forth.

Sansa for Queen of Winter! :commie:

Something that I kept thinking about while reading through the speculations of the Stark words and the meaning of Winterfell - is something I recall hearing said more than once (I can't seem to find specific examples at this time, so please forgive my lack of textual evidence):

"The North Remembers"

It's easy to see how this phrase is used as a warning, but since it is repeatedly used I have wondered if it is not once a case of a phrase that has altered meaning over time. Instead of seeing " the North remembers" as a threat akin to "I will not forget or forgive this" - is it possible to see this as an ancient reminder?

It would certainly seem that some words have lost their meaning (or rather, significance) over the centuries, As has been discussed (Winter is coming, there must always be a Stark in Winterfell), so why not these words as well? The North would certainly have more reason to want to remember The Long Night and the Others, especially if we assume the Northern connection to Winter and the Others to be stronger (also, as it has been discussed previously)

Maybe the North remembers in the same way Pepperidge Farm remembers (okay, that is a horrible example to use, but it serves its purpose).

The North needs to remember again - It needs to remember that Winter is Coming - It needs to remember WHY there should always be a Stark in Winterfell, it needs to remember what secrets have been forgotten - for the preservation of the realm.

Then again, I admit that I might just be reaching and this is completely unrelated - but I thought I would just throw my thoughts in here as well. :laugh:

[Stannis Lives]

Something that I kept thinking about while reading through the speculations of the Stark words and the meaning of Winterfell - is something I recall hearing said more than once (I can't seem to find specific examples at this time, so please forgive my lack of textual evidence):

"The North Remembers"

I think the north remembers all the wrongs against it and their liege lords. To me it's the rallying cry for the grand northern conspiracy, which is now my favorite theory of the series after reading in depth analysis. Here's part 1 of a good one. http://zincpiccalill...ost/52681254060

[alienarea]

It seems to me there's something odd about the weather in Westeros in the latter half of ADWD.Yes,a harsh winter has been heralded since the series began in AGOT, mainly because of the unusually long summer.But in the natural course of events you might expect winter to descend from the north,from the Land of Always Winter.

But that doesn't appear to be the case in Dance.The winter weather seems to have started at Winterfell,the worst of it is at Winterfell and it's radiating outwards from there.

Of course,in the real world a winter storm can strike in southerly latitudes whilst more northerly ones enjoy relatively good weather.But this is a fantasy series in which we know the seasons are out of kilter for fantasy reasons.From SSM;

Someone asked why the seasons are so messed up. Martin said he couldn't give an answer necause that would be telling! He did say that there would eventually be an answer in one of the books, and the answer would be a fantasy (as opposed to a science fiction/science based) answer.

So I suppose the author can put the weather where he wants!But has he chosen to center the storm over Winterfell and if so has he done this for narrative reasons?

The first mention of serious snowfall comes in the Theon chapter "The Turncloak".

This is shortly after Ramsay's marriage to "Arya",which I think is significant in itself.But more on that later.

It continues through the rest of the Winterfell chapters including the final one in which Theon makes this observation as he and the spearwives rescue "Arya".

We can reason that this storm rages over the course of about seven weeks from Asha's POV's, which trace the journey of Stannis and his host from Deepwood Motte towards Winterfell.The march of 300 miles was predicted to take 15 days by the troops.After three days of good progress the snows start falling and hinders the progress of the army;-

Two days later they are forced to pull up at the Crofter's village where after 19 more days,Tycho Nestoris turns up with Theon and Jeyne.

Meanwhile,what's happening at the Wall?In short,we can say it's been variable weather wise throughout most of Dance until the storm arrives from the south in Jon's last chapter.

From other POV's and locations.

Arya confirms that it's snowing in the Riverlands in The Blind Little Girl.

It's snowing in Jaime's last chapter of AFFC at Riverrun though in his only ADWD chapter,,slightly to the north,Blackwood Vale is"bare and muddy,dotted here and there with drifts of melting snow."I don't think there's a huge time differential between those two chapters.

In Sansa's last POV in AFFC the Eyrie is being vacated for the winter due to snow and frost but the vale floor is snow free and autumnal.The Eyrie is at altitude.

And in the epilogue it's snowing in Kings Landing and the white raven arrives there from the Citadel to herald the official arrival of winter.

The Starks are absent.

The snows arrive in Winterfell in the days after the wedding of Ramsay Bolton to a fake,though publicly acknowledged as genuine, Arya Stark.This ceremony conducted before the heart tree serves to seal Ramsay as the Lord of Winterfell in law.Roose blames the blizzard on Stannis-

Though surely the Boltons are the real intruders here?This is the first time in known history that the Starks are not officially in charge of Winterfell,which brings to mind the family motto;

There must always be a Stark in Winterfell.

The phrase is oft repeated throughout the novels,though we are never told why.It seems common sense,in a way.Have a Stark around to keep up morale and deter intruders.But perhaps it has a more esoteric significance that's been forgotten over the ages.

The Starks are a truly ancient family who trace their lineage back to Bran the Builder who raised Winterfell and the Wall.If the motto is as old as the family,perhaps it goes back as far as the Pact between the COTF and the First Men.This Pact,as we know from Luwin divided the lands between the parties in exchange for an end to hostilities.

This is the headline agreement of the Pact,but perhaps there were other terms and conditions,such as a supervisory role for the Starks in enforcing the Pact?The Starks were Kings in the North from the Age of Heroes until Torrhen bent the knee to Aegon,but they were also widely known as the Kings of Winter.Again,we get no real explanation as to what the title means.Maybe it acknowledges that the Starks have been granted lands and honours,but also duties and responsibilities as well?

In this light,"There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" could seem like a condition,clause or even curse imposed upon them.And the penalty for breaking this taboo?There may be a hint in the Stark words....

Winter is coming.

Catelyn reflects on the house words early in AGOT,-

Strange indeed.On one level the words seem pragmatic,get your harvest in,prepare for the worst,maybe even carpe diem to an extent.But maybe it can be seen as a warning of sorts,-keep up your end of the bargain or Winter is coming.The words are spoken by a non Stark character in Bran's coma dream,-

I don't think the crow is warning of any old winter but Winter itself,the kind Old Nan spoke of.If the crow can be seen as connected to the Old Gods perhaps this can be seen as foretelling the arrival of Winter at Winterfell?

Would you agree on connecting the storm originating from Winterfell to the wall?

There must always be a Stark in Winterfell is a failsafe. If there isn't, the storm is unleashed. And when it reaches the wall, the wall will fall. And then Winter is coming . The Others.

[Neumond]

I really hope this will come true alienarena!

[AtomixIGN]

There are two things Im looking forward to this thread reminded me of. Things my level of anticipation is through the roof on. The first is the reveal as to what lies in the lowest levels of Winterfell's Crypts. I need to know what is down there. Something magical - something natural like a hotspring. Maybe the collapse blocks the path to the caves or underground river that leads north under the wall? No Idea, can not wait. The other was the Sansa stuff talked about early on in here months ago. But I have this vision of the Armies of the Vale coming to the aid of I dont even know who yet - Jon maybe. With all their banners flying and hoisted high above all the others, the White Standard of House Stark and that revelation . I think that moment will be GRRM version of the Battle of Five Armies - "EAGLES! THE EAGLES HAVE COME!"

[shiola]

Great work, OP. I am in love with this theory. I think it's definitely got parts of something awesome.

[Scrambled Aegon]

Had a long-ass post here but decided to just move it to a new thread when I saw how long it was.

Carry on!