Prime Barristan Selmy vs Jamie Lannister(with hand)

[KOM]

Barristan 54/100 times.

If somehow Jaime has a hand and is fighting for Brienne... Jaime 53/100 times.

[Diomedes]

well,if sixty-something Barristan is still this good I would place my bet on him in his prime.

[Fetch me a block]

I'd bet on Barristan

[Ser Harras Harlaw]

Jaime sure thinks he would win, but GRRM has said that Barristan and Arthur Dayne(minus Dawn) were equals.

So, I'm going Ser Barristan, though only by a hair.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/5601

[princeimrahil]

Let's look at the evidence we have from the text:

Barristan Selmy

Scorecard: Maelys the Monstrous, Ser Simon Toyne, Several Goldcloaks (without a sword), The Titan's Bastard (with a staff), Khrazz

Other Achievements: Rescued King Aerys single-handedly from Duskendale, competed in a tourney at age 10. Accomplished jouster.

Additional Information: GRRM says that Barristan = Dayne (sans Dawn). Jaime Lannister (probably) considers Arthur Dayne better than himself as a swordsman.

Jaime Lannister

Scorecard: Rossart the Pyromancer, King Aerys II, Belis and Garigus the Pyromancers, Bran Stark, Daryn Hornwood, Harrion and Torrhen Karstark

Other Achievements: Knighted at 15, joined the Kingsguard soon after. Accomplished jouster (defeats Ser Barristan at the Hand's Tourney). Successfully eludes pursuit during his escape from Riverrun.

Additional Information: Is considered to be a naturally talented swordsman (IIRC, the exact quote is in reference to one of Dany's new "squires" who is descrbied as being "the best natural swordsman since Jaime Lannister).

So if we look at the scorecards, Barristan's credited victories/accomplishments are impressive feats against mostly formidable opponents. Jaime seems to be quite good at killing unarmed old men and crippling boys (though he did slay a few northern swordsmen).

Jaime is undeniably good - even after spending months in a cramped cell, and with his hands chained, he holds his own against Brienne of Tarth, who is a talented warrior. However, it does not appear that he has ever been pitted in actual combat against foes of the same caliber as Ser Barristan. This seems to fit with Jaime's general cockiness and high opinion of himself - he's probably never been challenged in the same way that Barristan has.

There is also the point about Arthur Dayne, who the author says is pretty much dead equal to Barristan. Jaime holds the Sword of Morning in awe - he is perhaps the one fighter that Jaime does not consider himself equal to. Based upon that, we can infer that Barristan is probably superior to Jaime as a swordsman.

[Jaime's Wench]

snip

That's an awesome run down and good reminder of key things, thank you!

In my opinion, Jaime fights with passion and Selmy with disciplined skill. So it would depend on the circumstance. If Jaime was fighting a trial by battle for Cersei's life, he would win. If they were fighting in a melee with blunted swords, Selmy would win perhaps.

[Daeron Targaryen Snow]

Barristan The Bold wins everytime he has what we like to call GRIT. Think about him in his prime, which in his prime Barristan is known to be on the level of The Sword of Morning.

[StarkDragon]

In light of princeimrahil's post, I revoke my vote of Jaime>Barristan.

[ckal]

Just a straight up one on one fight. I do think Barristans honor could be a problem for him in a fight with another knight, and since Jamie doesnt really have an honor code, that could be to his advantage. Remember Ser Vardis vs Bronn in the Vale?

???? Barristan has killed many knights.

[The Last Grenseer]

selmy>briene>jaime

[ckal]

snip

There's a couple other notable accomplishments Jamie had from earlier in his life. This is from his westeros wiki page:

-Won his first tournament melee as a squire at 13 years old

-At age 15 during the campaign against the kingswood brotherhood, Jaime 'saved Lord Crakehall from Big Belly Ben and crossed swords with the psychotic Smiling Knight'

IIRC Jaime also killed some men in the unsuccessful escape attempt from Riverrun in ACOK, but since then he has lost his sword hand.

I'm not saying any of these things put Jaime above Selmy, I just wanted to add more information. It is a shame though, that Aerys kept Jaime in King's Landing for the entirety of Robert's Rebellion. Surely if he was allowed to fight, we would be adding more to his list of accomplishments. It is also a similar situation to his tenure in the KG under Robert Baratheon, as all those years were peaceful and he did not have any wars to gain more acclaim. There was the Greyjoy rebellion, but I don't think it was ever mentioned that Jaime had a part in that (whereas Selmy led the attack on Old Wyk).

So all in all, it seems that Selmy has had far more opportunities in his prime to showcase his skills and gain acclaim for his deeds as a sword fighter and knight. All of Jaime's battle experience came before he was 17 years old, and the few battles in AGOT where it was said he cut down many northerners (including those you named) when he was over 30 years old. For most of the prime of Jaime's career as a knight and sword fighter (between ages 17 and 30), he has not fought in any battles. On top of that, Jaime lost his hand, so we may never know what he was truly capable of. Shame indeed.

[Mulled Wino]

Why dont you think he reached his prime? Do you think its because his lost his hand, while still relatively young?

Precisely, I think GrrM had him lost his hand at the worst possible time for him as far aa becoming the greatest swordsman in westeros.

[Lion of Judah]

I am a betting man, so I would put my gold on Selmy in a close one. As good as Jamie is, I don't think he ever came close to The Sword of the Morning when it came to skill. GRRM is on record saying that if Barristan and Arthur Dayne were to face off without Arthur having dawn then it would be a toss up.

[Fat Mac]

selmy>briene>jaime

Jaime with his hands tied and having been in a dungeon for a couple months was on the verge of beating Brienne. Under normal circumstances there would be no competition between the two.

[Nictarion]

Jamie

[Bayard]

There is also the point about Arthur Dayne, who the author says is pretty much dead equal to Barristan. Jaime holds the Sword of Morning in awe - he is perhaps the one fighter that Jaime does not consider himself equal to. Based upon that, we can infer that Barristan is probably superior to Jaime as a swordsman.

The thing is, Jaime wanted to be Arthur Dayne, and now he is dead. People always think fonder of people who are gone... The Sword of the Morning is an idol for Jaime. But he was 15-16 at that time... he is a lot better now. Again, I don't think Jaime can be objective regarding Arthur Dayne... most likely Ser Barristan was better. The thing is he didn't have a cool sword, didn't look like a Targaryen, didn't come from a famous house... not even his nickname could compare: the Bold vs The Sword of the Morning. I think that Jaime would beat ser Arthur Dayne in AGOT. Look what he did to Robb's personal guard... over 10 men killed on his own?? northmen side by side, destroyed by him. That's impressive.

I don't know who would win between SB and Jaime... I'm leaning towards Jaime.

[Mulled Wino]

Let's look at the evidence we have from the text:

Barristan Selmy

Scorecard: Maelys the Monstrous, Ser Simon Toyne, Several Goldcloaks (without a sword), The Titan's Bastard (with a staff), Khrazz

Other Achievements: Rescued King Aerys single-handedly from Duskendale, competed in a tourney at age 10. Accomplished jouster.

Additional Information: GRRM says that Barristan = Dayne (sans Dawn). Jaime Lannister (probably) considers Arthur Dayne better than himself as a swordsman.

Jaime Lannister

Scorecard: Rossart the Pyromancer, King Aerys II, Belis and Garigus the Pyromancers, Bran Stark, Daryn Hornwood, Harrion and Torrhen Karstark

Other Achievements: Knighted at 15, joined the Kingsguard soon after. Accomplished jouster (defeats Ser Barristan at the Hand's Tourney). Successfully eludes pursuit during his escape from Riverrun.

Additional Information: Is considered to be a naturally talented swordsman (IIRC, the exact quote is in reference to one of Dany's new "squires" who is descrbied as being "the best natural swordsman since Jaime Lannister).

So if we look at the scorecards, Barristan's credited victories/accomplishments are impressive feats against mostly formidable opponents. Jaime seems to be quite good at killing unarmed old men and crippling boys (though he did slay a few northern swordsmen).

Jaime is undeniably good - even after spending months in a cramped cell, and with his hands chained, he holds his own against Brienne of Tarth, who is a talented warrior. However, it does not appear that he has ever been pitted in actual combat against foes of the same caliber as Ser Barristan. This seems to fit with Jaime's general cockiness and high opinion of himself - he's probably never been challenged in the same way that Barristan has.

There is also the point about Arthur Dayne, who the author says is pretty much dead equal to Barristan. Jaime holds the Sword of Morning in awe - he is perhaps the one fighter that Jaime does not consider himself equal to. Based upon that, we can infer that Barristan is probably superior to Jaime as a swordsman.

why does Jamie have unarmed guys, including at least one that was running away on his resume. I don't believe those should count.

[Honor is a Horse]

Jaime is a great tourney Knight but Barristan is on another level thanks to his actual battlefield accomplishments. Remember Duskendale? I think it's safe to assume it was him against many and I'm sure some of the Hollards were Knights granted not near a kingsguard caliber, still he battled numbers and fatigue and still was too much a match.

Jaime is great but we have to remember much of the opinion of Jaime comes from inflated Lannister egos and even his kingsguard appointment was just to stick it to Tywin. Top 5 sure but in his prime Barristan is in another league.

[Ramsay B.]

selmy>briene>jaime

Jaime in his prime would own Brienne I think. He might underestimate her at first but would beat her a vast majority of the time with his speed and natural talent.

As others have said, I think Selmy would win like 56/100 times if fighting Jaime.

[Mulled Wino]

Jaime is a great tourney Knight but Barristan is on another level thanks to his actual battlefield accomplishments. Remember Duskendale? I think it's safe to assume it was him against many and I'm sure some of the Hollards were Knights granted not near a kingsguard caliber, still he battled numbers and fatigue and still was too much a match.

Jaime is great but we have to remember much of the opinion of Jaime comes from inflated Lannister egos and even his kingsguard appointment was just to stick it to Tywin. Top 5 sure but in his prime Barristan is in another league.

Jamie acquitted himself well in Whispering wood. Lets not act like Jamie is just a tourney knight. But I agree that a prime Barristan with his experience would beat the best Jamie (Jamie's career got cut short)