Danny's hate for Starks...permanent?

[Ser Ennepe]

So? We know that Ned didn't do anything but he did fight in the Rebellion. No one is arguing that Aerys was good, just and right, he was horrible and crazy, but House Stark still rebelled against House Targaryen and it had a hand in their demise, even if it was justified. I want Dany to change, but I don't think that she has to like the Starks. If she becomes queen, all she has to do is tolerate them and be fair. Just like Daario said, should Arya change her opinion about the Freys?

The Problem is that we know this but Dany doesn´t and the one time Barristan wants to clear that bit she shuts him up. And sure, Ned rebelled, but that lunatic of a King wanted his head! What should he have done about it? Riding to King´s Landing and getting beheaded? Who would have stopped Aerys from killing Benjen after that? There was only one thing to do and that war to start a rebellion.

I also kind of doubt that she will change her view about the Starks if she becomes queen.

[drayrock]

Nobody is saying that what the Starks did was unjustified, but that does not change the fact that Dany is absolutely in the rights of hating the Starks.

At least, as much as the Starks are in the rights of hating the Freys, and the Martells the Lannisters.

I agree she had a right to blind fully hate in book 1 believing everything she was brainwashed with was true... But we're now on book 5 and she's received enough evidence that these past stories were twisted. It's higher time she recognized this...and that's why I say it's not comparable. Not to mention arya doesn't need a crazy brother to fill her head with lies about her so called enemies...she witnessed the red wedding.

[WardenOfTheNerds]

I agree with guys who said tyrion might be an eye-opener. Even if not in the matter of Starks, then definitely in the matter of Aerys. It's highly unlikely he won't quip about her apeshit mad father whom she seems to hold in such high esteem :P

[Cheshire Rat]

Tyrion doesn't care for the Starks, either, particularly. And the only reason she forgave Selmy is because he kissed the ring, so to speak, and told her she was the true queen, and he was wrong to have ever followed Robert. Name a Stark that's likely to do that. There aren't any. They KNOW what happened.

I guess I was thinking about Tyrion and Jon being friendly and I would be surprised if Tyrion started bashing Sansa. All the other Starks are dead as far as he knows. And I think Tyrion is way more likely to speak his mind to Dany about what happened in the past than Barristan is. I think Barristan is highly unlikely to tell Dany some of the hard truths that she really needs to know about her family before she sails for Westeros. I think Tyrion is probably going to tell her. And does she really hate all the Starks? Or is it just Ned that she thinks of when she talks. I think she should be open to not judging people based on their families considering who her brother was.

[WardenOfTheNorth]

She doesn't have any family left. I think she's clinging to the notion that her family was in the right and refusing to acknowledge the atrocities because she's all alone. She doesn't want to know (at least not yet) that she comes from a family of crazies.

How often do you see stories about REAL people defending their brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers, etc from what people say about them despite the overwhelming evidence? She has a ton of pride instilled in her with being a Targaryen. It's not going to be easy for her to accept it.

Should she? Yes. Will she? Eventually. But I completely understand her wanting to believe her family isn't as bad as people make them out to be. That they were justified and no one understands (not even her). From my own personal experiences, I knew my father was a bad person from the time that I was very young. But I gave him a lot of second chances and kept giving him the benefit of the doubt. It took a lot for me to cut him out of my life, but at least I have other family. Dany doesn't. So she purposefully isn't ready to know, and Barristan knows this and wants to protect her and wait for the right time.

That about sums it up.

[TheMysteriousOne]

Even though I want Dany to like the Starks, I won't care if she never does, because right now she has no reason to like them, other than the fact that Ned told Robert not to kill her. If she ever becomes queen all she has to do is be just and fair with them and to tolerate them.

[drayrock]

Tyrion doesn't care for the Starks, either, particularly. And the only reason she forgave Selmy is because he kissed the ring, so to speak, and told her she was the true queen, and he was wrong to have ever followed Robert. Name a Stark that's likely to do that. There aren't any. They KNOW what happened.

Haha straight up. Not a chance and I hope they don't. Tyrion liked Jon and felt bad for bran and Sansa...it was only rob he wasn't find of but even them he told his dad that he would actually like and respect the boy

[Lord Godric]

The Problem is that we know this but Dany doesn´t and the one time Barristan wants to clear that bit she shuts him up

It is perhaps the largest disappointment I had with Dany's story in ADwD. I expected Barristan to reveal so much to Dany about the true history of Westeros, her father's reign, Ned's unwillingness to have her assassinated and the like while she was sitting there in Meereen doing nothing and yet, like you said, Dany doesn't ever want to listen. It it perhaps the largest frustration I have with Dany, because it feels like she never develops and actively refuses the help of people who could teach her valuable lessons.

[Raksha the Demon]

It's hard to let the lessons of childhood go. I would assume (I don't have the books handy) that Daenerys didn't learn to hate the 'Usurper' and 'the Usurper's dogs' just from Viserys, but also from Willem Darry, who was was her father-figure for the first eight or so years of her life. Barristan tried to tell Dany that Ned Stark had fought with Robert for Dany's life when Robert ordered her assassination, and resigned as Hand; but I can understand that Dany might have thought Ned's actions too little and much too late. She needs to hear that her father gave Ned and Robert no choice but to rebel in order to save their own lives from Aerys; unlike Brandon, they had made no threat toward Rhaegar before Aerys demanded their surrender. I really doubt that Dany knows the exact nature of her father's treatment of Brandon and Rickard Stark; she was probably told that they were both evil traitors and her father gave them 'the king's justice'. (it can be argued that Brandon deserved to die under the laws of Westeros, for threatening the crown prince; but all Rickard had done was to come and plead for his son and ask to fight for him)

Perhaps GRRM is having Dany go through this apparent period of denial so that she can wrestle with the temptation of becoming cruel and paranoid like Aerys, also so arrogant that she will hear no other side but that of the Targaryens, and ultimately learn from the mistakes and madness of her brother and father. There is also the possibility that Dany will become a female Aerys with dragons; even more dangerous. GRRM is using her as an example of the flaws of monarchy; so much power coming to a young person with many grudges; will she become as closed-minded and vicious as her father, or be more obviously Rhaegar's kin but with a destiny of saving Westeros instead of rending it apart?

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Im not disputing its justification. My point is, she and her brother suffered greatly from it. They arent going to look at those events logically and unbiased. Its easier for people who have not suffered from it, to look at it logically. All they see is a bunch of dead family members at the hands of the "Usurper" and his "dogs".

We do know a family of hotheaded and often irrational in their hatred members who have the same reasons as Daenerys to hate and want revenge for what happened to Elia and her children. They never put the blame on the Starks, or the Arryns nor even Robert (They blame him for never giving justice but they don't hold him accountable for the murders). They don't love them, sure, but they are not the target of their revenge. The difference is that they know and undrestand the reasons for the rebellion and they also know that it was Aerys' and Reagar's responsibility for triggering all the events.

Daenerys doesn't know because she doesn't want to learn. It wouldn't really matter if she was the girl next door but she is a queen and she aspires to rule the seven kingdoms. If she keeps this attitude for every unpleasant truth, I 'd say she must never be in charge of anything and with all the power she holds she's a walking danger. I don't care if she holds her grudges on a personal level but the fact that she doesn't want to hear is telling about her personality and her suitability to rule.

[Raksha the Demon]

Even though I want Dany to like the Starks, I won't care if she never does, because right now she has no reason to like them, other than the fact that Ned told Robert not to kill her. If she ever becomes queen all she has to do is be just and fair with them and to tolerate them.

But Dany's idea of being just and fair with the surviving Starks could be not to imprison or kill them for their father's 'sins'; but to confiscate Winterfell and give it to a Targaryen loyalist, and cast Ned Stark's children to the winds; free, but landless. Or she could order Tyrion to keep Sansa as his wife; send Rickon to the Wall when he's older (if the Wall is still there), and marry Arya off to Trystane Martell (I'm assuming poor Myrcella will be dead by then). She would even be able to tell herself and others, truthfully, that she is being more merciful than her father.

Of course, there is the issue of Jon Snow's true identity. If he ever is revealed to be the true son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and he does meet Dany (and Dany's dragons don't fry him); he will certainly try to assure that Rickon Stark inherits Winterfell, and after him Sansa and Arya (in that order) and they can all live there.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

But Dany's idea of being just and fair with the surviving Starks could be not to imprison or kill them for their father's 'sins'; but to confiscate Winterfell and give it to a Targaryen loyalist, and cast Ned Stark's children to the winds; free, but landless. Or she could order Tyrion to keep Sansa as his wife; send Rickon to the Wall when he's older (if the Wall is still there), and marry Arya off to Trystane Martell (I'm assuming poor Myrcella will be dead by then). She would even be able to tell herself and others, truthfully, that she is being more merciful than her father.

Don't worry, when all is said and done, the surviving Starks won't be depending on anyone's good will.

[ARYa_Nym]

She's going to be around Arya soon and I don't think Arya is going to kill her so I think that the Usurper's Dogs problem will somehow be resolved by then.

I don't think she has to have love for the Starks though. Ned still worshiped the man who rewarded Aegon and Rhaenys' killers. Sure he was mad initially but not mad enough to not get over it and mend their relationship.

From Ned's POV you can say yes they're friends and Targaryens are nothing to him but from her POV that's her family. Her mother also had to flee and she and Viserys had to flee because of Stannis. Ned supported Stannis although I'm not sure if she knows that.

She doesn't have to hate them but I don't see any reason for her to think these are good people. I must care for them like the fandom does.

[A Song of Tyrion's member]

If she travels to Westeros with either Barristan and/or Tyrion I'm sure she will be re-briefed on the who's-who of Westeros houses. Tyrion and Selmy both share respect for House Stark; I'm sure she will be informed when Dany makes her move West.

EDIT: This doesn't mean she will necessarily begin to 'like' the Starks, but she will be able to make a logical decision, this time. Who knows, maybe even after meeting a Stark she will begin to like them. I see a bit of each Stark kid in Dany, or vice versa (minus Rickon).

[lady m]

It is perhaps the largest disappointment I had with Dany's story in ADwD. I expected Barristan to reveal so much to Dany about the true history of Westeros, her father's reign, Ned's unwillingness to have her assassinated and the like while she was sitting there in Meereen doing nothing and yet, like you said, Dany doesn't ever want to listen. It it perhaps the largest frustration I have with Dany, because it feels like she never develops and actively refuses the help of people who could teach her valuable lessons.

Exactly, I was excited when she decided to stop in Meereen to learn to rule. I thought this meant learning about her family, the main reason she gave for taking on Selmy, he'd known multiple members of her family. She could put her ideals into practice. I'm not even going into the morally questionable stuff, but how did what she said it was about add up to her shutting down Ser Barriston and then chapter after chapter of twirling her hair mooning about Daario, nibbling on lamb or figs, dressing or undressing in tokkars, etc.

[Ser Wun Wun]

Ah, the whole 'Dany never listens' thing again. Let's look at the progression from Dany's last chapter in ASOS, to her 7th chapter in ADWD.

ASOS; Dany (last chapter)

Dany stopped him. “Do I want to hear this now?”

Ser Barristan considered a moment. “Perhaps not. Not now.”

“Not now,” she agreed. “One day. One day you must tell me all. The good and the bad. There is some good to be said of my father, surely?”

This is the infamous part of the story where Dany refuses to hear what Bary has to say about her father. Totally unforgivable right? But then 7 chapters into ADWD...

ADWD; Dany (7th chapter out of 10)

“I want to know. I never knew my father. I want to know everything about him. The good and …the rest.”

“As you command.” The white knight chose his words with care. “Prince Aerys … as a youth, he was taken with a certain lady of Casterly Rock, a cousin of Tywin Lannister. When she and Tywin wed, your father drank too much wine at the wedding feast and was heard to say that it was a great pity that the lord’s right to the first night had been abolished. A drunken jape, no more, but Tywin Lannister was not a man to forget such words, or the … the liberties your father took during the bedding.” His face reddened. “I have said too much, Your Grace. I—”

“Gracious queen, well met!” Another procession had come up beside her own, and Hizdahr zo Loraq was smiling at her from his own sedan chair.

So there it is, she was ready to hear what Barristan had to say....only that shit Hizdahr to showed up and cut him off. Dany is married immediately after this, and in her 8th chapter she is at some gathering where she is mingling with the Yunkish envoys, plotting with sellswords, talking to Quentyn, etc... In her 9th chapter she is at the pit fight which ended with her flying off on Drogon. One thing after another seemed to get in the way of her talking to Bary about her father, which is beyond frustrating, I know. However, none of that changes the fact that Dany herself was ready to hear what Barristan had to say, a huge change from ASOS.

As far as what this has to do with the Starks....well, if she is ready to accept that her father was mad, obviously this would have some implications for how she will view the ones who overthrew him. We can also see in the exchange where Bary tries to tell her about the real Ned Stark that, while she tries to counter him and insist Ned is the same as the Lannisters, a realization hits her hard and she isn't even able to finish the sentence. And she never uses the phrase "Usurper's dogs" again after that exchange either, which occurred early on in ADWD.

So I just don't think that we can say she is locked in to this whole "they're all Usurper's Dogs" outlook that Viserys drilled into her, or that she is locked into Viserys's worldview in general.

[Lion of Judah]

Dany doesn't know the whole truth and at times she thinks of her brother and the woman he loved and died for very fondly. She never claims to hate the Starks, she only refers to Ned as a usurper for rebelling against her dad. Are we really about to crap on her because she is ready or mentally prepared to hear that her daddy is a murdering rapist?

[CKPS63]

Selmy isn't coward, he is just way too experienced with Targs to know that if he just dumped it on her, she'll not believe it. That's why he decides that it is not the time to tell her - she'd just stuff imaginary fingers into ears and go "La la la usurper's Dogs La la la" Viserys mode.

I guess the Imp will be the catalyst here - he will not keep his big mouth shut and Selmy would feel compelled to step in when Dany wants to fry him alive.

I think that when the time comes, Baristan will be fair in describing the actual character of the Starks, as he sees it, to Dany. The question is whether Baristan himself will communicate anything enthusiastic about the Starks that would change Dany's mind about them -- after all, he seems to vaguely resent them for what (he thinks) happened to Ashara. She also got an eareful from Jorah (whose dislike for Ned was palpable) during the time that he was with her. In fact, while many Westerosi, such as Stannis and Olenna Tyrell, have expressed respect for the Starks, few seem likely to pass on anything warm-and-fuzzy that would change Dany's initial impressions.

[TheMysteriousOne]

Ah, the whole 'Dany never listens' thing again. Let's look at the progression from Dany's last chapter in ASOS, to her 7th chapter in ADWD.

This is the infamous part of the story where Dany refuses to hear what Bary has to say about her father. Totally unforgivable right? But then 7 chapters into ADWD...

So there it is, she was ready to hear what Barristan had to say....only that shit Hizdahr to showed up and cut him off. Dany is married immediately after this, and in her 8th chapter she is at some gathering where she is mingling with the Yunkish envoys, plotting with sellswords, talking to Quentyn, etc... In her 9th chapter she is at the pit fight which ended with her flying off on Drogon. One thing after another seemed to get in the way of her talking to Bary about her father, which is beyond frustrating, I know. However, none of that changes the fact that Dany herself was ready to hear what Barristan had to say, a huge change from ASOS.

As far as what this has to do with the Starks....well, if she is ready to accept that her father was mad, obviously this would have some implications for how she will view the ones who overthrew him. We can also see in the exchange where Bary tries to tell her about the real Ned Stark that, while she tries to counter him and insist Ned is the same as the Lannisters, a realization hits her hard and she isn't even able to finish the sentence. And she never uses the phrase "Usurper's dogs" again after that exchange either, which occurred early on in ADWD.

So I just don't think that we can say she is locked in to this whole "they're all Usurper's Dogs" outlook that Viserys drilled into her, or that she is locked into Viserys's worldview in general.

This. I think you need to save this post and post it whenever people say that Dany doesn't want to hear.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Even though I want Dany to like the Starks, I won't care if she never does, because right now she has no reason to like them, other than the fact that Ned told Robert not to kill her. If she ever becomes queen all she has to do is be just and fair with them and to tolerate them.

I think this is pretty fair. At this point, there's no need for her to like them, and equally, they have no good reason to like her, either. If she never ends up liking them, frankly I see it as a big fat, "... So?" It's not as if the Starks actually have a use for her or require her assistance, so I'm not really going to clutch my pearls wondering if she won't like them. They don't owe her anything, including their fealty. And she doesn't owe them anything either.