Court of Law v. 9 (Catelyn Stark)

Runaway Penguin · March 4, 2013

About the citizen's arrest argument. Catelyn herself questions her actions of kidnapping Tyrion with what she realizes is very flimsy evidence after Tyrion questions her about arming an assassin with his own dagger. So if she did not have the clarity to dissect such an important element in the accusation against Lord Tyrion, why she she have the power to place him under citizens arrest?
Tyrion never committed any crimes against the Vale, so in a legal sense once he reached the Vale Lysa had no legal right to hold him anyway. Further enhancing the prosecution claim that Cateyn lacked sufficient evidence to try Tyrion on charges she herself came to realize was faulty.

This still doesn't prevent a lawful arrest. Guilt is to be determined by trial.

HOWEVER, as noted, the defendant intentionally did not seek closest/most accessible site where King's Justice can be dispensed, but instead forced Lord Tyrion to pass TWICE through knowingly dangerous territory to get Lord Tyrion to other site able to dispense King's Justice - where, moreover, person or persons in charge of this act were likely to be biased against Lord Tyrion. Hence dismissal of "Citizen arrest" and Guilty verdict. I just wanted Defense to have its say.

Lion of Judah · March 4, 2013

This still doesn't prevent a lawful arrest. Guilt is to be determined by trial.
HOWEVER, as noted, the defendant intentionally did not seek closest/most accessible site where King's Justice can be dispensed, but instead forced Lord Tyrion to pass TWICE through knowingly dangerous territory to get Lord Tyrion to other site able to dispense King's Justice - where, moreover, person or persons in charge of this act were likely to be biased against Lord Tyrion. Hence dismissal of "Citizen arrest" and Guilty verdict. I just wanted Defense to have its say.

Point noted.

ShadowCat Rivers · March 4, 2013

This still doesn't prevent a lawful arrest. Guilt is to be determined by trial.
HOWEVER, as noted, the defendant intentionally did not seek closest/most accessible site where King's Justice can be dispensed, but instead forced Lord Tyrion to pass TWICE through knowingly dangerous territory to get Lord Tyrion to other site able to dispense King's Justice - where, moreover, person or persons in charge of this act were likely to be biased against Lord Tyrion. Hence dismissal of "Citizen arrest" and Guilty verdict. I just wanted Defense to have its say.

First time: she was not aware of the danger.

Second time: blame Lysa Arryn.

Alester Florent · March 4, 2013

Charge 1A.-(Kidnapping)This court charges Lady Catelyn Stark with the kidnapping of one Lord Tyrion Lannister of house Lannister. Lady Catelyn impeded Lord Tyrion's travel and forcefully took him to the Vale against his will to stand trial for charges unfounded.

Lady Catelyn acted as plenipotentiary for her father, Lord Tully, and for her husband, the Hand of the King, Eddard Stark, in making lawful arrest of Tyrion Lannister for crimes of which he had been accused. It is further acknowledged that, under a subjective assessment, Lady Catelyn reasonably believed herself in danger from Tyrion Lannister at the point she ordered his arrest, and therefore, inasmuch as her actions were those of a private individual, is considered to have acted in self-defence. Not guilty.

Charge 1B.-Lady Catelyn now know as 'Lady Stoneheart', led a band of outlaws known as 'The Brotherhood Without Banners' in the act of kidnapping and ransoming one Petyr Frey.

Guilty. This judge is minded to treat the charges against Lady Catelyn and Lady Stoneheart separately, given the serious change of state undergone between adoption of each persona.

Charge 2-(Miscarriage of Justice) Because of said actions this court charges Lady Catelyn with a miscarriage of justice. Lady Catelyn invoked the Kings Justice and was not called upon by the king to lawfully carry justice out in his name. **Lady Catelyn was also advised by her uncle Blackfish Tully that her sister Lady Lysa of the Vale did not have the mental capacity to carry out justice in the kings name. His warnings were ignored even after Lady Catelyn saw Lysa's mental state first hand.

Not guilty. As noted above to charge 1A, Catelyn Tully acted with lawful authority in arresting Tyrion Lannister. Once within the Vale, the local authority was that of Lord Robert Arryn, counselled by his mother Lady Lysa, and Lady Catelyn cannot be held responsible for their mental states. In any case, the settlement of the situation through trial by combat vitiated any charge against judgment of the trial.

Charge 3-(Reckless Endangerment) To conceal and evade capture with her prisoner Tyrion Lannister, Lady Catelyn took her traveling party through the most dangerous region of the Vale. This act led to them being attacked by the Vale clansmen, endangering the life of her illegal captive.**After his acquittal of faulty charges initiated by Lady Catelyn Lord Tyrion had no choice but through a road in which capture by Vale Clansmen was imminent.

This judge is minded to dismiss any charges relating to those events befalling Tyrion Lannister upon arrival at the Eyrie. However, the responsibility for maintaining the peace along the roads of each kingdom fall ultimately on the lord paramount and Lady Catelyn cannot be held responsible for the acts of outlaws in attacking travellers upon the roads nor for the failures of the Lords of the Vale to keep the roads clear. Not guilty.

Charge-4(Inciting riots/chaos/war) Lady Catelyn's actions of kidnapping Tyrion Lannister, provoked a military response by his father Warden of the West Lord Tywin Lannister. A response that would not have occurred had she not unlawfully seized Tyrion Lannister.

Lord Tywin's actions were unlawful and it would be contrary to the interests of justice to charge Lady Catelyn with responsibility for crimes committed against her whether directly or indirectly. Charges dismissed.

Charge 5-(Treason) Lady Catelyn unbeknownst to the King in the North negotiated with the enemy and agreed to terms without the kings knowledge. She released a prisoner of considerate value to the king and his allies "The King Slayer.' This court sites as precedence the trial of Alester Florent charge 3 'collusion'.

Catelyn Tully indeed exceeded her authority in agreeing terms for the prisoner exchange of Jaime Lannister. This judge is not minded to accept the assertion that Jaime Lannister was released, as he was escorted under guard. This judge is not minded to accept that such amounts to treason, and will thus dismiss charges, although Lady Catelyn did exceed her authority in doing so. This judge is minded to consider the defence of unsound mind and will take that into account in sentencing.

Charge 6-(child neglect) Lady Catelyn is accused of neglecting the child of her husband Lord Eddard Stark from the day he was brought to Winterfell. Lady Catelyn actively spoke against the victim Jon Snow's character when given the opportunity. This court sites as evidence the conversation between Lady Catelyn and The King in the North Robb Stark in which she sort to convince Robb against legitimizing his brother because he was a bastard and bastards are treacherous.

Lady Catelyn is under no legal obligation to like or speak well of her own children, let alone anybody else's. Her actions towards Jon Snow, including those listed on the indictment, do not in any way amount to neglect. Not guilty.

Charge 7-(Attempted Murder)-Lady Catelyn now known as Lady Stoneheart upon finding Brienne of Tarth and her companion Podrick Payne, ordered her band of outlaws to hang Podrick Payne, a young man with no prior knowledge or dealings with her. The act was only halted once Brienne of Tarth forcefully agreed to Lady Catelyn's terms.

Guilty.

Charge 8-(Murder)1A.-Lady Catelyn and her band of outlaws had no interest in ransoming Petyr Frey and hanged him by the neck until he was dead before their requested ransom was paid.

Guilty.

1B.-Despite his claims to have taken no part in the Red Wedding, Merret Frey was also hanged from the neck until dead while trying to pay the requested ransom for Petyr Frey. No effort was made by Lady Catelyn to corroborate or discredit Merret's claims of innocence in the act.

Lady Catelyn, as an eyewitness to the Red Wedding, was herself well enough placed to judge Merret Frey's claims of guilt or innocence. Irrespective, the actions of Lady Stoneheart were unlawful. Guilty.

Charge 9-(Assault)-A charge of assault is warranted for her actions against Podrick Payne as severe bodily harm was done to him as a result of Lady Catelyn now known as Lady Stoneheart orders.

Guilty; this judge also openly questions why such charges were not brought on account of Lady Stoneheart's actions towards Ser Hyle Hunt.

For the finding of guilt against Lady Catelyn Tully for exceeding her authority in negotiations with the Lannisters, she is sentenced to a period of imprisonment on parole. The state of mind of Lady Catelyn in believing her family to be dead and her motive of trying to ensure safe passage for her remaining children is taken into account.

For the findings of guilt against Lady Stoneheart, she is sentenced to death by the sword. This judge is not minded to accept that Lady Catelyn Tully and Lady Stoneheart are for legal purposes the same individual.

Lion of Judah · March 4, 2013

Couldn't decide on the definitive charge pertaining to Hyle Hunt, was it assault, attempted murder, murder, a combination? I was not certain that he was dead, in which case the charge would be murder. If he was not the charge would be assault and/or attempted murder. Not knowing his faith cast doubt when presenting charges.

Erudain · March 4, 2013

1A) guilty. - Monetary fine. Mitigating factors are wrong intel given deliberately to her by Littlefinger.

1B) not guilty. - I consider said action as a guerrilla warfare tactic between two organizations at war (BwB against the IT)

2) not guilty - she cannot be held responsible for the actions of her sister, on the other hand, Tyrion's trial was properly conducted according to Westeros laws & customs (not like some wacko King did years before...)

3) not guilty - is the only road available to the Vale from their departure location, and she has no way to know how active the clansmen are.

4) Dismiss - She cannot be held resposable for the actions of another person and the kidnap per se is discussed in point 1A. Even by finding her guilty of kidnap charges, the response from the Lannister side was extreme and unnecesary.

5) Guilty. - this court doesn't aknowledges Robb Stark sentece as definite. Prison sentence.

6) Not guilty. - Even if the actions of the accused can be viewed as immoral and harsh, she never commits any crime against Jon. Wishing for a person to become crippled instead of her son is not a crime.

7) Guilty. - Podrick was a POW and deserved treatment as such. Since no murder actually happen: prison sentence.

8) Guilty. - the murdered was a POW. Lifelong prison sentence.

9) Dismiss - charge and sentece in point 7 supersede this one since they are harsher.

So I find her guilty from points 1A, 5, 7 & 8. Since the accused cannot be sent to the Wall I suggest prison sentece or be ordered into the Silent Sisters

snowtarg · March 4, 2013

snowtarg, on 04 March 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:
Objection: Lady Stoneheart is not a living person and should not be tried with Lady Stark, who died before Stoneheart was raised by magic. Only charges against Lady Stark should be considered. Would anyone propose charging the donors of the body parts of Frankenstein's monster with its crimes? Denied, they are the embodiment of the same person.
Reply: I completely disagree. Lady Stark died at the RW. Lady Stoneheart is a zombie created from her corpse. Lady Stark cannot be held responsible for the actions of her magically animated corpse!
Charge 2-(Miscarriage of Justice) Because of said actions this court charges Lady Catelyn with a miscarriage of justice. Lady Catelyn invoked the Kings Justice and was not called upon by the king to lawfully carry justice out in his name. **Lady Catelyn was also advised by her uncle Blackfish Tully that her sister Lady Lysa of the Vale did not have the mental capacity to carry out justice in the kings name. His warnings were ignored even after Lady Catelyn saw Lysa's mental state first hand.
Not Guilty - There is no evidence that Lady Stark was aware of the danger from the Vale clansmen. As Tyrion's "host", Lady Arryn was responsible for failing to provide transportation after his release. I challenge this argument, since you flat out ignored the evidence of them being attacked on their journey to the Vale. It is reasonable to think that her captive would face danger leaving the Vale.
Reply: I merely stated that there is no proof that Lady Stark was aware in advance of the magntude of the danger. The fact that they were attacked is unfortunate, but do you believe that victims should be charged with enticing their attackers?
Charge-4(Inciting riots/chaos/war) Lady Catelyn's actions of kidnapping Tyrion Lannister, provoked a military response by his father Warden of the West Lord Tywin Lannister. A response that would not have occurred had she not unlawfully seized Tyrion Lannister.
Dismiss - Lord Tywin is responsible for his own actions, He had many other potential responses to Lady Stark's actions other than initiating warfare against the Riverlands. Actions brought on by the illegal capture of his son, actions that this court has already held him accountable for. We are now trying Lady Catelyn, not Tywin Lannister so address her charges.
Reply: I have addressed the charges against her. Tywin's response was grossly disproportionate to Lady Stark's action. The charge that her action forced Tywin to attack the Riverlands is ludicrous and should be dismissed as I stated.
Charge 5-(Treason) Lady Catelyn unbeknownst to the King in the North negotiated with the enemy and agreed to terms without the kings knowledge. She released a prisoner of considerate value to the king and his allies "The King Slayer.' This court sites as precedence the trial of Alester Florent charge 3 'collusion'.
Not guilty - Only Robb Stark can decide whether disobeying his orders constitutes treason, and he did not declare it be so. The rules of this thread state that we do not recognize the prior judgement of any other court, ruling body or kings etc. Read the rules next time.
Reply: I have read the rules, thank you. With regard to the charge of treason against a king, I think the king's own judgement on that charge should be taken into consideration! We will have to agree to disagree on that point, I guess.
Charge 6-(child neglect) Lady Catelyn is accused of neglecting the child of her husband Lord Eddard Stark from the day he was brought to Winterfell. Lady Catelyn actively spoke against the victim Jon Snow's character when given the opportunity. This court sites as evidence the conversation between Lady Catelyn and The King in the North Robb Stark in which she sort(sic) sought to convince Robb against legitimizing his brother because he was a bastard and bastards are treacherous.
Not guilty - Not loving your husband's bastard is not child neglect. One could argue that Jon Snow was her husband's responsibility, not hers. And the word is sought, not sort! Save the vocabulary lesson, this is a court just address the charges next time. If you can't get to the point then don't bother attempting to make one.
Reply: Sorry if I got your nose out of joint by correcting your spelling. I believe I addressed the charge before trying to help you with a spelling correction. Sorry if you were offended.
Dismiss charges 7 through 9 per objection above.

Thank you for taking the time to read and respond to my judgements. Clearly, we disagree on some points.

Thendel · March 4, 2013

On the charges against Lady Catelyn Stark née Tully, a.k.a. Lady Stoneheart, this juror finds:

1: On the charges of kidnapping:

1A: Guilty. The defendant had no legal right to arrest the victim.

1B: Guilty. The defendant acted as part of a band of outlaws.

2: Miscarriage of Justice: Guilty. The defendant did not have the king's express leave to carry out his justice when she invoked it.

3: Reckless Endangerment: Not Guilty. The defendant had no way of knowing the full extent of the danger on the road.

4: Inciting riots/chaos/war: Not Guilty. While the kidnapping of Tyrion Lannister was a serious crime in itself, it does not justify Tywin Lannister's military response in any way. The defendant cannot be held to blame for a response of this magnitude.

5: Treason: Guilty. The defendant had no legal prerogative to free the prisoner of war in question, nor to dictate terms of exchange of prisoners.

6: Child Neglect: Not Guilty. The defendant was never obligated to provide care for Jon Snow.

7: Attempted Murder: Guilty. The victim was completely harmless to her.

8: On the charges of Murder:

8A: Guilty. Ordered as part of an outlaw group.

8B: Guilty. The guilt of Merrett Frey aside, this juror will not condone vigilante justice.

9: Assault: Guilty. The victim was being asphyxiated, which certainly counts as bodily harm.

Verdict: On the charges against the defendant, this juror finds her guilty of Kidnapping, Miscarriage of Justice, Treason, Attempted Murder, Murder and Assault. The defendant will serve prison time for 25 years, be obliged to monetary recompensation of 1000 Golden Dragons to be paid to Tyrion Lannister, and monetary recompensation of 500 Golden Dragons to be paid to Podrick Payne.

Pootie Tang · March 4, 2013

This Juror speaks for the insanity plea and advises the court to place the outlaw leader known as Lady Stoneheart under lifetime psychiatric treatment and imprisonment.

As restitution to the crimes committed towards her former self Catelyn Stark, this Juror finds the anguish that drove Lady Catelyn into this madness is by far punishment enough for any alledged crime and Dismisses all charges toward her.

Lord Bronn Stokeworth · March 4, 2013

Charge 1A.-(Kidnapping)This court charges Lady Catelyn Stark with the kidnapping of one Lord Tyrion Lannister of house Lannister. Lady Catelyn impeded Lord Tyrion's travel and forcefully took him to the Vale against his will to stand trial for charges unfounded.
Charge 1B.-Lady Catelyn now know as 'Lady Stoneheart', led a band of outlaws known as 'The Brotherhood Without Banners' in the act of kidnapping and ransoming one Petyr Frey.
Charge 2-(Miscarriage of Justice) Because of said actions this court charges Lady Catelyn with a miscarriage of justice. Lady Catelyn invoked the Kings Justice and was not called upon by the king to lawfully carry justice out in his name. **Lady Catelyn was also advised by her uncle Blackfish Tully that her sister Lady Lysa of the Vale did not have the mental capacity to carry out justice in the kings name. His warnings were ignored even after Lady Catelyn saw Lysa's mental state first hand.
Charge 3-(Reckless Endangerment) To conceal and evade capture with her prisoner Tyrion Lannister, Lady Catelyn took her traveling party through the most dangerous region of the Vale. This act led to them being attacked by the Vale clansmen, endangering the life of her illegal captive.**After his acquittal of faulty charges initiated by Lady Catelyn Lord Tyrion had no choice but through a road in which capture by Vale Clansmen was imminent.
Charge-4(Inciting riots/chaos/war) Lady Catelyn's actions of kidnapping Tyrion Lannister, provoked a military response by his father Warden of the West Lord Tywin Lannister. A response that would not have occurred had she not unlawfully seized Tyrion Lannister.
Charge 5-(Treason) Lady Catelyn unbeknownst to the King in the North negotiated with the enemy and agreed to terms without the kings knowledge. She released a prisoner of considerate value to the king and his allies "The King Slayer.' This court sites as precedence the trial of Alester Florent charge 3 'collusion'.
Charge 6-(child neglect) Lady Catelyn is accused of neglecting the child of her husband Lord Eddard Stark from the day he was brought to Winterfell. Lady Catelyn actively spoke against the victim Jon Snow's character when given the opportunity. This court sites as evidence the conversation between Lady Catelyn and The King in the North Robb Stark in which she sort to convince Robb against legitimizing his brother because he was a bastard and bastards are treacherous.
Charge 7-(Attempted Murder)-Lady Catelyn now known as Lady Stoneheart upon finding Brienne of Tarth and her companion Podrick Payne, ordered her band of outlaws to hang Podrick Payne, a young man with no prior knowledge or dealings with her. The act was only halted once Brienne of Tarth forcefully agreed to Lady Catelyn's terms.
Charge 8-(Murder)1A.-Lady Catelyn and her band of outlaws had no interest in ransoming Petyr Frey and hanged him by the neck until he was dead before their requested ransom was paid.
1B.-Despite his claims to have taken no part in the Red Wedding, Merret Frey was also hanged from the neck until dead while trying to pay the requested ransom for Petyr Frey. No effort was made by Lady Catelyn to corroborate or discredit Merret's claims of innocence in the act.
Charge 9-(Assault)-A charge of assault is warranted for her actions against Podrick Payne as severe bodily harm was done to him as a result of Lady Catelyn now known as Lady Staoneheart orders.
Judges present your arguments!

1A. She had no right to take Tyrion as a prisoner. That she was deceived and gave tried to give Tyrion a fair hearing will be taken into account in sentencing. GUILTY

1B. This judge does not recognize Lady Stoneheart as the same person as Catelyn Stark. Lady Stoneheart appears to be a vengeful wraith brought to life by some foreign magic who even the performer of it barely understands. By all accounts, there has been no true resurrection in the story (Drogo was a vegetable, Beric suddenly became a bandit hero and had problems remembering before he died, wights are wights). It even took a new name and we no longer receive her version of events which have only stopped when A] characters die or B] become inactive in the story (such as Theon). Since, Lady Stoneheart is active, it must be assumed that Catelyn Stark is dead and Lasy Stoneheart is a separate entity. Thus Lady Stoneheart must be held it accountable for its actions. CHARGES DISMISSED

2. She did everything in her power to insure Tyrion received proper treatment. Despite Blackfish's warning, she had no other choice but to let Tyrion go which would have been dangerous. NOT GUILTY

3. She is not responsible for sending Tyrion back out on the road with only Bronn, thus only the first part applies. GUILTY

4. Tywin's actions are her own. To incite riot/war/etc. means to directly create not to do something that causes your enemy to do it. This charge is silly. I won't dignify it with a not guilty. CHARGES DISMISSED

5. There are many key differences between this charge and Alester Florent. First, she was not negoiate surrender. Second, she was trying to save her king's only legitmate heirs (who knows if and when Jeyne would have got pregnant even if her mother wasn't sabotaging it and there was no guaruntee that the Night's Watch would release Jon from his vows), not sacrifice them. It is still treason, but these key differences (along with the fact that overvaluing Jamie's worth as a hostage and undervaluing his sisters is another one of Robb's many mistakes) will be taken into account during sentencing. *GUILTY

6. It is not a wife's responsibility to make her husband's child with another woman feel accepted. Her treatment of Jon was not nice, but far below the illegal bar. NOT GUILTY

7. A crime of Lady Stoneheart. CHARGES DISMISSED

8A. A crime of Lady Stoneheart. CHARGES DISMISSED

8B. A crime of Lady Stoneheart. CHARGES DISMISSED

9. A crime of Lady Stoneheart. CHARGES DISMISSED

Sentence: House arrest for an indeterminet amount of time.

*This judge notes that while guilty of treason, she should be pardoned for that crime. It was something Robb should have done after he believed his brothers were killed. Unlike Lord Florent who was surrendering and placing the king's heir in danger, Cat was actually trying to strengthen Robb by giving him heirs in case his other plans (getting his wife pregnant and/or Jon out of the NW) failed. King Robb was made many mistakes and failing to rescue his sisters was one of them. It was the right call even if Cat was still wrong in doing it. Thus, this judge feels justice would be served by pardoning this crime or at least commuting it.

Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl · March 4, 2013

First off, Tyrion is no lord. At the time of said event, Tywin Lannister was Lord of House Lannister.

Charge 1A.-(Kidnapping)This court charges Lady Catelyn Stark with the kidnapping of one Lord Tyrion Lannister of house Lannister. Lady Catelyn impeded Lord Tyrion's travel and forcefully took him to the Vale against his will to stand trial for charges unfounded.

Guilty

Charge 1B.-Lady Catelyn now know as 'Lady Stoneheart', led a band of outlaws known as 'The Brotherhood Without Banners' in the act of kidnapping and ransoming one Petyr Frey.

Charges Dismissed

Charge 2-(Miscarriage of Justice) Because of said actions this court charges Lady Catelyn with a miscarriage of justice. Lady Catelyn invoked the Kings Justice and was not called upon by the king to lawfully carry justice out in his name. **Lady Catelyn was also advised by her uncle Blackfish Tully that her sister Lady Lysa of the Vale did not have the mental capacity to carry out justice in the kings name. His warnings were ignored even after Lady Catelyn saw Lysa's mental state first hand.

Guilty

Charge 3-(Reckless Endangerment) To conceal and evade capture with her prisoner Tyrion Lannister, Lady Catelyn took her traveling party through the most dangerous region of the Vale. This act led to them being attacked by the Vale clansmen, endangering the life of her illegal captive.**After his acquittal of faulty charges initiated by Lady Catelyn Lord Tyrion had no choice but through a road in which capture by Vale Clansmen was imminent.

Guilty

Charge-4(Inciting riots/chaos/war) Lady Catelyn's actions of kidnapping Tyrion Lannister, provoked a military response by his father Warden of the West Lord Tywin Lannister. A response that would not have occurred had she not unlawfully seized Tyrion Lannister.

Guilty

Charge 5-(Treason) Lady Catelyn unbeknownst to the King in the North negotiated with the enemy and agreed to terms without the kings knowledge. She released a prisoner of considerate value to the king and his allies "The King Slayer.' This court sites as precedence the trial of Alester Florent charge 3 'collusion'.

Charges Dismissed

Charge 6-(child neglect) Lady Catelyn is accused of neglecting the child of her husband Lord Eddard Stark from the day he was brought to Winterfell. Lady Catelyn actively spoke against the victim Jon Snow's character when given the opportunity. This court sites as evidence the conversation between Lady Catelyn and The King in the North Robb Stark in which she sort to convince Robb against legitimizing his brother because he was a bastard and bastards are treacherous.

Charges Dismissed

Charge 7-(Attempted Murder)-Lady Catelyn now known as Lady Stoneheart upon finding Brienne of Tarth and her companion Podrick Payne, ordered her band of outlaws to hang Podrick Payne, a young man with no prior knowledge or dealings with her. The act was only halted once Brienne of Tarth forcefully agreed to Lady Catelyn's terms.

Guilty Ser Hyle should also be included in the charges.

Charge 8-(Murder)1A.-Lady Catelyn and her band of outlaws had no interest in ransoming Petyr Frey and hanged him by the neck until he was dead before their requested ransom was paid.

Charges Dismissed

1B.-Despite his claims to have taken no part in the Red Wedding, Merret Frey was also hanged from the neck until dead while trying to pay the requested ransom for Petyr Frey. No effort was made by Lady Catelyn to corroborate or discredit Merret's claims of innocence in the act.

Charges Dismissed

Charge 9-(Assault)-A charge of assault is warranted for her actions against Podrick Payne as severe bodily harm was done to him as a result of Lady Catelyn now known as Lady Stoneheart orders.

Guilty

Death by sword.

Cas Stark · March 5, 2013

Welcome to the 9th installation of the “Official court of law” for this board. In this thread we will debate and pass judgement on character crimes from the work ASOIAF. As judges we bear a burden of upholding the integrity of our court so being impartial is imperative, keep all arguments in a legal context that suit the standards of this court. All posters are welcomed to make their case, at the end of your argument pass your judgement and sentence!!!!
The rules: Every poster has one vote (per charge) of guilt or innocence.
**For a guilty verdict, your options are:
Send them to the wall. (same as prison sentence)
Death by sword. (Clean and quick)
Death by flames. (An ode to R’hllor)
Monetary fine
Exile and/or
Stripped of land/title.
Prison sentence
**If you find the character innocent, simply state innocent after your argument.
As for as evidence that can be submitted, posters can submit any argument they deem relevant. However we cannot use any pardons or prior convictions as evidence in the matter. Our court will not recognize the judgement of any other court or ruling body.
**You can also vote for charges to be dismissed (majority rule).
**At the end of the week the vote will be counted and the final sentence carried out. Majority rules. Only the nominated character will be discussed, however, you can indict characters you also find culpable, as part of your ruling, and they can be added to the docket.
**Votes can be changed before they are counted, but do so in your original post.
Posters can just cast a vote, which is your right, but try to state a case as well. Your opinion actually matters and it may serve to change the vote of another judge.
*Do not take it personally if your favorite character is being torn to pieces. Everyone is fair game.
****If votes of 'not guilty' and 'dismissed' taken together comprise over 50% of the total votes cast, the defendant is to be found 'not guilty' or the charge is to be 'dismissed', with the option that gained the most votes between the two representing the final verdict.****
Tywin Lannister
Robb Stark
Jamie Lannister
Melisandre
Alester Florent
Renly Baratheon
Gregor Clegane
Daenerys Targaryen
This court now call upon Lady Catelyn Stark of Winterfell alias 'Lady Stoneheart,' alias 'Mother Merciless' and charge her with:
Charge 1A.-(Kidnapping)This court charges Lady Catelyn Stark with the kidnapping of one Lord Tyrion Lannister of house Lannister. Lady Catelyn impeded Lord Tyrion's travel and forcefully took him to the Vale against his will to stand trial for charges unfounded.
Charge 1B.-Lady Catelyn now know as 'Lady Stoneheart', led a band of outlaws known as 'The Brotherhood Without Banners' in the act of kidnapping and ransoming one Petyr Frey.
Charge 2-(Miscarriage of Justice) Because of said actions this court charges Lady Catelyn with a miscarriage of justice. Lady Catelyn invoked the Kings Justice and was not called upon by the king to lawfully carry justice out in his name. **Lady Catelyn was also advised by her uncle Blackfish Tully that her sister Lady Lysa of the Vale did not have the mental capacity to carry out justice in the kings name. His warnings were ignored even after Lady Catelyn saw Lysa's mental state first hand.
Charge 3-(Reckless Endangerment) To conceal and evade capture with her prisoner Tyrion Lannister, Lady Catelyn took her traveling party through the most dangerous region of the Vale. This act led to them being attacked by the Vale clansmen, endangering the life of her illegal captive.**After his acquittal of faulty charges initiated by Lady Catelyn Lord Tyrion had no choice but through a road in which capture by Vale Clansmen was imminent.
Charge-4(Inciting riots/chaos/war) Lady Catelyn's actions of kidnapping Tyrion Lannister, provoked a military response by his father Warden of the West Lord Tywin Lannister. A response that would not have occurred had she not unlawfully seized Tyrion Lannister.
Charge 5-(Treason) Lady Catelyn unbeknownst to the King in the North negotiated with the enemy and agreed to terms without the kings knowledge. She released a prisoner of considerate value to the king and his allies "The King Slayer.' This court sites as precedence the trial of Alester Florent charge 3 'collusion'.
Charge 6-(child neglect) Lady Catelyn is accused of neglecting the child of her husband Lord Eddard Stark from the day he was brought to Winterfell. Lady Catelyn actively spoke against the victim Jon Snow's character when given the opportunity. This court sites as evidence the conversation between Lady Catelyn and The King in the North Robb Stark in which she sort to convince Robb against legitimizing his brother because he was a bastard and bastards are treacherous.
Charge 7-(Attempted Murder)-Lady Catelyn now known as Lady Stoneheart upon finding Brienne of Tarth and her companion Podrick Payne, ordered her band of outlaws to hang Podrick Payne, a young man with no prior knowledge or dealings with her. The act was only halted once Brienne of Tarth forcefully agreed to Lady Catelyn's terms.
Charge 8-(Murder)1A.-Lady Catelyn and her band of outlaws had no interest in ransoming Petyr Frey and hanged him by the neck until he was dead before their requested ransom was paid.
1B.-Despite his claims to have taken no part in the Red Wedding, Merret Frey was also hanged from the neck until dead while trying to pay the requested ransom for Petyr Frey. No effort was made by Lady Catelyn to corroborate or discredit Merret's claims of innocence in the act.
Charge 9-(Assault)-A charge of assault is warranted for her actions against Podrick Payne as severe bodily harm was done to him as a result of Lady Catelyn now known as Lady Staoneheart orders.
Judges present your arguments!

1A. Guilty. Sentence: community service

1B. **She's dead, so I don't think she can be tried in court, her legal standing would have to be adjudicated first.

2. Case dismissed, does not appear to meet the required legal threshold.

3. Not guilty.

4. No case to answer, no riot occured at the inn and Twyin Lannister's actions were3 themselves illegal, case dismissed.

5. Guilty. Sentence to be determined by the King in the North.

6. No case to answer, speaking against a child is not child neglect and there is no evidence Jon Snow lacked for any basics of care as a child, affection not being a requirement, case dismissed.

7. 8. 9. See 1B** She's dead, the legal standing of a re-animated corpse would need to be adjudicated prior to any trial of Lady Stoneheart's actions.

juanml82 · March 5, 2013

Charge 1A.-(Kidnapping)This court charges Lady Catelyn Stark with the kidnapping of one Lord Tyrion Lannister of house Lannister. Lady Catelyn impeded Lord Tyrion's travel and forcefully took him to the Vale against his will to stand trial for charges unfounded.

Dismissed. Lady Catelyn Stark is within her power to exert the King's Justice as wife of the Lord Paramount of the North, Lord Eddard Stark. This jury note, however, that Lady Catelyn Stark was outside her jurisdiction when she ordered the lawful arrest of Tyrion Lannister, and notes that the Lords Paramount of the Riverlands and the Vale can demand civil compensation from the Lord Paramount of the North for Lady Catelyn Stark's actions.

Charge 1B.-Lady Catelyn now know as 'Lady Stoneheart', led a band of outlaws known as 'The Brotherhood Without Banners' in the act of kidnapping and ransoming one Petyr Frey.

Dismissed. Lady Catelyn Stark was killed during Lord Edmure Tully's wedding. As such, her legal identity ceased to exist from that moment forward. This juror note that the King's Justice applies to human beings and the creature known as Lady Stonehearth is not of human nature. As such, its actions are beyond the reach of the Law.

Charge 2-(Miscarriage of Justice) Because of said actions this court charges Lady Catelyn with a miscarriage of justice. Lady Catelyn invoked the Kings Justice and was not called upon by the king to lawfully carry justice out in his name. **Lady Catelyn was also advised by her uncle Blackfish Tully that her sister Lady Lysa of the Vale did not have the mental capacity to carry out justice in the kings name. His warnings were ignored even after Lady Catelyn saw Lysa's mental state first hand.

Dismissed. Lady Lysa Arryn, Lady Regent of the Vale, has the legal authority to execute the King's Justice within her lands. This juror reminds the jury that King Robert Baratheon, First of his Name, King of the Andals, the Rhoynars, the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm confirmed Lady Lysa Arryn as Lady Regent of the Vale after her husband's death. As such, she was fully entitled to put Tyrion Lannister on trial.

Charge 3-(Reckless Endangerment) To conceal and evade capture with her prisoner Tyrion Lannister, Lady Catelyn took her traveling party through the most dangerous region of the Vale. This act led to them being attacked by the Vale clansmen, endangering the life of her illegal captive.**After his acquittal of faulty charges initiated by Lady Catelyn Lord Tyrion had no choice but through a road in which capture by Vale Clansmen was imminent.

Not Guilty. This juror understand a person in Lady Catelyn Stark's station must be aware of the general condition of the roads of the Realm. It is, however, the Lady Regent of the Vale's responsibility to exert the King's Justice in a way that makes the roads safe and to provide safe passage for the visitors to her lands.

Charge-4(Inciting riots/chaos/war) Lady Catelyn's actions of kidnapping Tyrion Lannister, provoked a military response by his father Warden of the West Lord Tywin Lannister. A response that would not have occurred had she not unlawfully seized Tyrion Lannister.

Dismissed. The Laws of the Realm do not make it illegal for Lord Paramounts to challenge each other, despite the wisdom or not of those actions.

Charge 5-(Treason) Lady Catelyn unbeknownst to the King in the North negotiated with the enemy and agreed to terms without the kings knowledge. She released a prisoner of considerate value to the king and his allies "The King Slayer.' This court sites as precedence the trial of Alester Florent charge 3 'collusion'.

Guilty. While this juror understand the prisioner was not released, as he was sent with under and armed guard, if insuficient, Lady Stark holds no authority to negotiate prisoner exchanges under terms expressedly rejected by King Robb Stark, First of His Name, King in the North, King of the Trident and Protector of the Realm. This juror also considers the crime to be aggravated by the state of War existing between the Kingdom of the North, the Kingdom of the Iron Isles and the realm formerly known as the Seven Kingdoms, as well as the impending attacks by the Free Folk, of which Lady Stark knew about and the rumored attack by the creatures referred as "White Walkers", of which Lady Stark had reasons to suspect.

Charge 6-(child neglect) Lady Catelyn is accused of neglecting the child of her husband Lord Eddard Stark from the day he was brought to Winterfell. Lady Catelyn actively spoke against the victim Jon Snow's character when given the opportunity. This court sites as evidence the conversation between Lady Catelyn and The King in the North Robb Stark in which she sort to convince Robb against legitimizing his brother because he was a bastard and bastards are treacherous.

Not guilty. The prosecutor has yet to present any evidence of Jon Snow suffering physical, psycological or sexual abuse from the defendant.

Charge 7-(Attempted Murder)-Lady Catelyn now known as Lady Stoneheart upon finding Brienne of Tarth and her companion Podrick Payne, ordered her band of outlaws to hang Podrick Payne, a young man with no prior knowledge or dealings with her. The act was only halted once Brienne of Tarth forcefully agreed to Lady Catelyn's terms.

Not guilty. See point 1B.

Charge 8-(Murder)1A.-Lady Catelyn and her band of outlaws had no interest in ransoming Petyr Frey and hanged him by the neck until he was dead before their requested ransom was paid.
1B.-Despite his claims to have taken no part in the Red Wedding, Merret Frey was also hanged from the neck until dead while trying to pay the requested ransom for Petyr Frey. No effort was made by Lady Catelyn to corroborate or discredit Merret's claims of innocence in the act.

Not guilty. See point 1B.

Charge 9-(Assault)-A charge of assault is warranted for her actions against Podrick Payne as severe bodily harm was done to him as a result of Lady Catelyn now known as Lady Staoneheart orders.

Final Veredict: This juror finds Lady Catelyn Stark not guilty on four charges. He also finds Lady Catelyn Stark was brought to trial under three false charges for conducts which are not against the law. Finally, the juror finds Catelyn Stark guilty on the charge of treason in times of war.

It is the view of this juror that Catelyn Stark is to be put to death by the sword as a Traitor to the Kingdom of the North. This juror also recommends Lady Catelyn Stark's heirs, if any, to initiate a civil suit against the Kingdom for putting Lady Catelyn Stark under the strain of a trial for accusations which should have been dismissed in the instruction stage.

Finally, regarding the creature known as Lady Stonehearth, this juror finds it beyond his juridisction. This juror, however, recommends the King, whoever he is, the creature's capture so it can studied and, if possibly, interrogated and recommends, pending jurisdiction, the Citadel as the facility to carry out this task. This juror also recommends maximum security in handling Lady Stonehearth, until the rumours of the White Walker's impending attack and their possible connections to other undead creatures are clarified.

Pod The Impaler · March 5, 2013

MOTION TO SEVER THE CHARGES INTO TWO DISTINCT PARTS:

To begin with, I make motion to sever the charges presented, separating the charaes laid against Lady Catelyn Stark and those laid against Lady Stoneheart.

As the defendant was slain at The Twins, and thereafter has been affected by a state of unnatural re-animation, the causes and reasons for which are as yet unknown, I propose that for the purposes of these proceedings, the actions of Lady Catelyn Stark and "Lady Stoneheart" be considered as separate.

(I shall proceed as if they are severed. Two sets of charges to cover two separate time periods and what amounts to two seperate defendants.)

WITH REGARD TO CHARGES AGAINST LADY CATELYN STARK, OF WINTERFELL:

Charge 1A.-(Kidnapping)This court charges Lady Catelyn Stark with the kidnapping of one Lord Tyrion Lannister of house Lannister. Lady Catelyn impeded Lord Tyrion's travel and forcefully took him to the Vale against his will to stand trial for charges unfounded.

NOT GUILTY / CHARGE DISMISSED.

It is not disputed that Catelyn Stark declared she was arresting Tyrion Lannister to be apprehended to face "the King's Justice" (meaning the general process, not the likewise-named officer in charge of executions). This was done in front of many witnesses at the Inn of the Crossroads.

By precedent, all Lords and Ladies are within their power to arrest those suspected of a crime for trial. In fact, it is considered their duty to uphold the King's Justice, and there is no special constabulary or judicial force which bears jurisdictional responsibility for law and justice in the realm, save perhaps for the "Gold Cloaks" in King's Landing. The system does not include a separation of judicial and lordly authority; it has a hierarchy which in theory place the King, The Hand Of The King, The Master Of Laws, and then regional liege Lords (in that order) in charge of both arrests, trials, judgment and sentencing functions.

As precedent, one can cite an example: The execution of a Night's Watch deserter north of Winterfell, by Lord Eddard Stark. Though he was not a member of the Watch, he was expected to uphold the law that desertion from the Watch. Sentence was summarily carried out in the field; the defendant in that case was not delivered to the custody of the Watch for trial or execution, nor delivered to the King or any other office holder of the central government. The Lord of Winterfell was within his rights to carry this sentence out.

The defendant may have believed she was empowered to do as she did, as the acting ruler of the North while her Husband was away at court (as Hand of The King), and as the eldest child of Lord Hoster Tully, whose infirmity was well known. It may be pointed out that as the mother of the victim, she was also in a conflict of interest, but regrettable as this is, the system does not seem to account for such things at all. Again, with regard to the process, there is a precedent: The case against Arya Stark with regard to her striking crown prince Joffrey "Baratheon" was ultimately decided by the King, despite the alleged victim in that case being his own (supposed) son. The Master of Laws was present at the time, as was the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and "King's Justice" (the office-holder), but despite these resources being at-hand, a more independent investigation and trial was not conducted. On top of this, the alleged accomplice of Arya Stark, the boy named "Mycah" was not even brought to the King, but summarily killed while at large, without being brought before the King or anyone else for questioning, and this was deemed perfectly legitimate.

Therefore, by precedent, such powers of summary arrest by high Lords and ladies clearly exist, without regard to conflict of interest, and what Catelyn Stark did was considered within the bounds of "due process". The defendant was not absucted for ransom; he was arrested for trial. A trial according to the laws of the realm is the only obligation, in cases where the defendant does not confess of their own accord.

Charge 2-(Miscarriage of Justice) Because of said actions this court charges Lady Catelyn with a miscarriage of justice. Lady Catelyn invoked the Kings Justice and was not called upon by the king to lawfully carry justice out in his name. **Lady Catelyn was also advised by her uncle Blackfish Tully that her sister Lady Lysa of the Vale did not have the mental capacity to carry out justice in the kings name. His warnings were ignored even after Lady Catelyn saw Lysa's mental state first hand.

NOT GUILTY / CHARGE DISMISSED.

The charge should be withdrawn as per charge 1A, and on the following grounds:

The defendant had reasonable grounds to believe that had she taken the prisoner west to Riverrun, south to King's Landing, or North to Winterfell, there was a strong chance her party would be attacked by Lannister-aligned forces and the prisoner freed. As The Vale was a lawfully-held part of the realm, and not engulfed in widespread strife or turmoil, there was a reasonable expectation that it should be able to carry out the functions of law and justice. Lady Lysa Arryn ruled as a de facto regent for the minor Lord Robert Arryn.

The complaint that Lady Lysa Tully was too mentally unstable to carry out these legal functions is highly debatable. The fact is that Tyrion Lannister was put on trial in accordance with the King's Laws, opted to employ wager of battle to decide his guilt or innocence, and was found not guilty in that trial in the sight of gods and men. If he was indeed innocent, one cannot lay blame upon the legal system for producing the outcome it was supposed to.

In any case, once Lady Catelyn Stark and company crossed into the Vale, they were under the jurisdiction of The Vale, and all judicial actions from that point on were the responsibility of The Vale, which could be countermanded only by the King et. al. in the royal court, not by Catelyn Stark.

As it happens, King Robert did countermand it, ordering the release of Tyrion Lannister, but word was sent too late to stop the trial from taking place.

Charge 3-(Reckless Endangerment) To conceal and evade capture with her prisoner Tyrion Lannister, Lady Catelyn took her traveling party through the most dangerous region of the Vale. This act led to them being attacked by the Vale clansmen, endangering the life of her illegal captive.**After his acquittal of faulty charges initiated by Lady Catelyn Lord Tyrion had no choice but through a road in which capture by Vale Clansmen was imminent.

NOT GUILTY / CHARGE DISMISSED.

As per charges 1a and 2, the defendant Catelyn Tully had lawfully arrested Tyrion Lannister, and had reasonable grounds to suspect that she would be pursued by forces willing to impeded the process of justice and free her prisoner. She did not have a retinue of well-armed knights when she made the arrest, but did take steps to arrange a securing force of armed men in the transportion of her prisoner tio The Eyrie.

Furthermore, she took the most direct and well-travelled route to the Eyrie that was available. If the level of public security on that road was deficient, then any charges of negligence should be laid at the doorstep of the Lords, ladies, and knights of The Vale, whose jurisdiction it is. Catelyn Stark is no more responsible for her being attacked than any other party of travellers in that area would be.

Charge-4(Inciting riots/chaos/war) Lady Catelyn's actions of kidnapping Tyrion Lannister, provoked a military response by his father Warden of the West Lord Tywin Lannister. A response that would not have occurred had she not unlawfully seized Tyrion Lannister.

NOT GUILTY / CHARGE DISMISSED.

This charge is preposterous. The lawful enforcement of the King's Laws cannot be counted as a legitimate casus belli for the launching of a war. The court has already weighed the issue of whether Jaime Lannister's retaliatory attack upon Eddard Stark was legally justified, and found it was not. The court already weighed the actions of Tywin Lannister in regard to the launching of a general campaign of destruction against the Riverlands in retaliation, and found it not only was unlawful, but worthy of execution. Who caused the war, truly? It was not a war until House Lannister decided to make it into one using force of arms - contrary to the King's peace, and without the lawful consent of King Robert Baratheon.

Charge 5-(Treason) Lady Catelyn unbeknownst to the King in the North negotiated with the enemy and agreed to terms without the kings knowledge. She released a prisoner of considerate value to the king and his allies "The King Slayer.' This court sites as precedence the trial of Alester Florent charge 3 'collusion'.

GUILTY. CHARGE REDUCED TO WILLFUL INSUBORDINATION.

Unfortunate as this is, the defendant did unlawfully release Jaime Lannister, contrary to the orders of her king, Robb Stark, the King In The North, and these actions did undermine his war effort.

The court recognizes two mitigating factors in the case: 1 ) Her being driven mad with grief over the apparent deaths of her sons Bran and Rickon, as well as the presumed death of her daughter Arya, which left her in a mentally unstable state, unable to fully appreciate the consequences of her actions; 2 ) Her being afraid that if she did not act, the prisoner Jaime Lannister would be murdered at the hands of Lord Karstark, thus resulting in the murder of her daughter Sansa.

The actions were not taken in malice in any attempt to undermine her king, nor did she seek to evade responsibility for them; yet she did wilfully use her privleged position to carry her actions out. Therefore, rather than treason, the charge is more appropriately one of wilful insubordination.

SENTENCE: EXILE AND IMPRISONMENT.

The defendant is to be taken to Greywater Watch and confined there for the rest of her natural life. She is permitted visitation from family, but under no circumstances is to leave The Neck, on pain of death.

Charge 6-(child neglect) Lady Catelyn is accused of neglecting the child of her husband Lord Eddard Stark from the day he was brought to Winterfell. Lady Catelyn actively spoke against the victim Jon Snow's character when given the opportunity. This court sites as evidence the conversation between Lady Catelyn and The King in the North Robb Stark in which she sort to convince Robb against legitimizing his brother because he was a bastard and bastards are treacherous.

NOT GUILTY.

The court acknowledges that the defendant acted with emotional callousness towards the child Jon Snow, and spoke against him to others in a prejudiced fashion, but this is not strictly-speaking illegal. A charge of neglect must include evidence that she actively sought him harm or denied him the necessities of life. There is no evidence to support that this was ever the case.

WITH REGARD TO CHARGES AGAINST LADY STONEHEART (ONCE KNOWN AS CATELYN STARK):

Charge 1B.-Lady Catelyn now know as 'Lady Stoneheart', led a band of outlaws known as 'The Brotherhood Without Banners' in the act of kidnapping and ransoming one Petyr Frey.

CHARGE DISMISSED / NO CONTEST - This judge does not recognize the line of Lannister bastards (Joffrey, Tommen) as lawful Kings, therefore whether the Brotherhood Without Banners are outlaws or not is a matter of conjecture. The BWB considered themselves once as doing the duty of King Robert Baratheon in enforcing the King's justice, as order by the lawful hand of the King, Eddard Stark.

Charge 7-(Attempted Murder)-Lady Catelyn now known as Lady Stoneheart upon finding Brienne of Tarth and her companion Podrick Payne, ordered her band of outlaws to hang Podrick Payne, a young man with no prior knowledge or dealings with her. The act was only halted once Brienne of Tarth forcefully agreed to Lady Catelyn's terms.

GUILTY.

The defendant did seek to fatally harm Podrick Payne, Ser Hyle Hunt, and Brienne of Tarth. Although nominally on the other side in an armed conflict, they did give themselves up without a fight and were entitled to better treatment than arbitrary executions. Furthermore, Brienne et. al. were acting in furtherance of a quest which the defendant herself (as Catelyn Stark) were trying to fulfil, therefore, it is not consistent with the principles of justice that she then try to "execute" the victims for events which she herself set in motion. To condone this would be to condone a sort of reverse oathbreaking.

SENTENCE: DEATH ? By fire, or valyrian sword, or whatever gets the job done. The court recognizes the unnatural state of being the defendant now exists in, and is not certain fire or sword will suffice.

Charge 8-(Murder) A.-Lady Catelyn and her band of outlaws had no interest in ransoming Petyr Frey and hanged him by the neck until he was dead before their requested ransom was paid.

8B.-Despite his claims to have taken no part in the Red Wedding, Merret Frey was also hanged from the neck until dead while trying to pay the requested ransom for Petyr Frey. No effort was made by Lady Catelyn to corroborate or discredit Merret's claims of innocence in the act.

GUILTY ON BOTH COUNTS.

Although the afformentioned Freys are themselves guilty of treason against the King In The North, Robb Stark, the Brotherhood Without banners has never considered themselves as subjects of Robb Stark, though individual members might see it that way. Indeed, as they promised ransom agreements or fair trials, and then reneged on this, the capture and summary killings of these victims is unlawful.

However, as per the Manderly Principle, this judge rules this a mercy killing.

Had they lived, the victims would have grown up to be (or already were) Freys.

SENTENCE: MONETARY FINE, equivalent to the ransom paid.

Charge 9-(Assault)-A charge of assault is warranted for her actions against Podrick Payne as severe bodily harm was done to him as a result of Lady Catelyn now known as Lady Staoneheart orders.

CHARGE DISMISSED. This charge is a duplication of charge 7 (Attempted murder.)

Lion of Judah · March 5, 2013

MOTION TO SEVER THE CHARGES INTO TWO DISTINCT PARTS:
To begin with, I make motion to sever the charges presented, separating the charaes laid against Lady Catelyn Stark and those laid against Lady Stoneheart.
As the defendant was slain at The Twins, and thereafter has been affected by a state of unnatural re-animation, the causes and reasons for which are as yet unknown, I propose that for the purposes of these proceedings, the actions of Lady Catelyn Stark and "Lady Stoneheart" be considered as separate.
(I shall proceed as if they are severed. Two sets of charges to cover two separate time periods and what amounts to two seperate defendants.)
WITH REGARD TO CHARGES AGAINST LADY CATELYN STARK, OF WINTERFELL:
Charge 1A.-(Kidnapping)This court charges Lady Catelyn Stark with the kidnapping of one Lord Tyrion Lannister of house Lannister. Lady Catelyn impeded Lord Tyrion's travel and forcefully took him to the Vale against his will to stand trial for charges unfounded.
NOT GUILTY / CHARGE DISMISSED.
It is not disputed that Catelyn Stark declared she was arresting Tyrion Lannister to be apprehended to face "the King's Justice" (meaning the general process, not the likewise-named officer in charge of executions). This was done in front of many witnesses at the Inn of the Crossroads.
By precedent, all Lords and Ladies are within their power to arrest those suspected of a crime for trial. In fact, it is considered their duty to uphold the King's Justice, and there is no special constabulary or judicial force which bears jurisdictional responsibility for law and justice in the realm, save perhaps for the "Gold Cloaks" in King's Landing. The system does not include a separation of judicial and lordly authority; it has a hierarchy which in theory place the King, The Hand Of The King, The Master Of Laws, and then regional liege Lords (in that order) in charge of both arrests, trials, judgment and sentencing functions.
As precedent, one can cite an example: The execution of a Night's Watch deserter north of Winterfell, by Lord Eddard Stark. Though he was not a member of the Watch, he was expected to uphold the law that desertion from the Watch. Sentence was summarily carried out in the field; the defendant in that case was not delivered to the custody of the Watch for trial or execution, nor delivered to the King or any other office holder of the central government. The Lord of Winterfell was within his rights to carry this sentence out.
The defendant may have believed she was empowered to do as she did, as the acting ruler of the North while her Husband was away at court (as Hand of The King), and as the eldest child of Lord Hoster Tully, whose infirmity was well known. It may be pointed out that as the mother of the victim, she was also in a conflict of interest, but regrettable as this is, the system does not seem to account for such things at all. Again, with regard to the process, there is a precedent: The case against Arya Stark with regard to her striking crown prince Joffrey "Baratheon" was ultimately decided by the King, despite the alleged victim in that case being his own (supposed) son. The Master of Laws was present at the time, as was the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and "King's Justice" (the office-holder), but despite these resources being at-hand, a more independent investigation and trial was not conducted. On top of this, the alleged accomplice of Arya Stark, the boy named "Mycah" was not even brought to the King, but summarily killed while at large, without being brought before the King or anyone else for questioning, and this was deemed perfectly legitimate.
Therefore, by precedent, such powers of summary arrest by high Lords and ladies clearly exist, without regard to conflict of interest, and what Catelyn Stark did was considered within the bounds of "due process". The defendant was not absucted for ransom; he was arrested for trial. A trial according to the laws of the realm is the only obligation, in cases where the defendant does not confess of their own accord.
Charge 2-(Miscarriage of Justice) Because of said actions this court charges Lady Catelyn with a miscarriage of justice. Lady Catelyn invoked the Kings Justice and was not called upon by the king to lawfully carry justice out in his name. **Lady Catelyn was also advised by her uncle Blackfish Tully that her sister Lady Lysa of the Vale did not have the mental capacity to carry out justice in the kings name. His warnings were ignored even after Lady Catelyn saw Lysa's mental state first hand.
NOT GUILTY / CHARGE DISMISSED.
The charge should be withdrawn as per charge 1A, and on the following grounds:
The defendant had reasonable grounds to believe that had she taken the prisoner west to Riverrun, south to King's Landing, or North to Winterfell, there was a strong chance her party would be attacked by Lannister-aligned forces and the prisoner freed. As The Vale was a lawfully-held part of the realm, and not engulfed in widespread strife or turmoil, there was a reasonable expectation that it should be able to carry out the functions of law and justice. Lady Lysa Arryn ruled as a de facto regent for the minor Lord Robert Arryn.
The complaint that Lady Lysa Tully was too mentally unstable to carry out these legal functions is highly debatable. The fact is that Tyrion Lannister was put on trial in accordance with the King's Laws, opted to employ wager of battle to decide his guilt or innocence, and was found not guilty in that trial in the sight of gods and men. If he was indeed innocent, one cannot lay blame upon the legal system for producing the outcome it was supposed to.
In any case, once Lady Catelyn Stark and company crossed into the Vale, they were under the jurisdiction of The Vale, and all judicial actions from that point on were the responsibility of The Vale, which could be countermanded only by the King et. al. in the royal court, not by Catelyn Stark.
As it happens, King Robert did countermand it, ordering the release of Tyrion Lannister, but word was sent too late to stop the trial from taking place.
Charge 3-(Reckless Endangerment) To conceal and evade capture with her prisoner Tyrion Lannister, Lady Catelyn took her traveling party through the most dangerous region of the Vale. This act led to them being attacked by the Vale clansmen, endangering the life of her illegal captive.**After his acquittal of faulty charges initiated by Lady Catelyn Lord Tyrion had no choice but through a road in which capture by Vale Clansmen was imminent.
NOT GUILTY / CHARGE DISMISSED.
As per charges 1a and 2, the defendant Catelyn Tully had lawfully arrested Tyrion Lannister, and had reasonable grounds to suspect that she would be pursued by forces willing to impeded the process of justice and free her prisoner. She did not have a retinue of well-armed knights when she made the arrest, but did take steps to arrange a securing force of armed men in the transportion of her prisoner tio The Eyrie.
Furthermore, she took the most direct and well-travelled route to the Eyrie that was available. If the level of public security on that road was deficient, then any charges of negligence should be laid at the doorstep of the Lords, ladies, and knights of The Vale, whose jurisdiction it is. Catelyn Stark is no more responsible for her being attacked than any other party of travellers in that area would be.
Charge-4(Inciting riots/chaos/war) Lady Catelyn's actions of kidnapping Tyrion Lannister, provoked a military response by his father Warden of the West Lord Tywin Lannister. A response that would not have occurred had she not unlawfully seized Tyrion Lannister.
NOT GUILTY / CHARGE DISMISSED.
This charge is preposterous. The lawful enforcement of the King's Laws cannot be counted as a legitimate casus belli for the launching of a war. The court has already weighed the issue of whether Jaime Lannister's retaliatory attack upon Eddard Stark was legally justified, and found it was not. The court already weighed the actions of Tywin Lannister in regard to the launching of a general campaign of destruction against the Riverlands in retaliation, and found it not only was unlawful, but worthy of execution. Who caused the war, truly? It was not a war until House Lannister decided to make it into one using force of arms - contrary to the King's peace, and without the lawful consent of King Robert Baratheon.
Charge 5-(Treason) Lady Catelyn unbeknownst to the King in the North negotiated with the enemy and agreed to terms without the kings knowledge. She released a prisoner of considerate value to the king and his allies "The King Slayer.' This court sites as precedence the trial of Alester Florent charge 3 'collusion'.
GUILTY. CHARGE REDUCED TO WILLFUL INSUBORDINATION.
Unfortunate as this is, the defendant did unlawfully release Jaime Lannister, contrary to the orders of her king, Robb Stark, the King In The North, and these actions did undermine his war effort.
The court recognizes two mitigating factors in the case: 1 ) Her being driven mad with grief over the apparent deaths of her sons Bran and Rickon, as well as the presumed death of her daughter Arya, which left her in a mentally unstable state, unable to fully appreciate the consequences of her actions; 2 ) Her being afraid that if she did not act, the prisoner Jaime Lannister would be murdered at the hands of Lord Karstark, thus resulting in the murder of her daughter Sansa.
The actions were not taken in malice in any attempt to undermine her king, nor did she seek to evade responsibility for them; yet she did wilfully use her privleged position to carry her actions out. Therefore, rather than treason, the charge is more appropriately one of wilful insubordination.
SENTENCE: EXILE AND IMPRISONMENT.
The defendant is to be taken to Greywater Watch and confined there for the rest of her natural life. She is permitted visitation from family, but under no circumstances is to leave The Neck, on pain of death.
Charge 6-(child neglect) Lady Catelyn is accused of neglecting the child of her husband Lord Eddard Stark from the day he was brought to Winterfell. Lady Catelyn actively spoke against the victim Jon Snow's character when given the opportunity. This court sites as evidence the conversation between Lady Catelyn and The King in the North Robb Stark in which she sort to convince Robb against legitimizing his brother because he was a bastard and bastards are treacherous.
NOT GUILTY.
The court acknowledges that the defendant acted with emotional callousness towards the child Jon Snow, and spoke against him to others in a prejudiced fashion, but this is not strictly-speaking illegal. A charge of neglect must include evidence that she actively sought him harm or denied him the necessities of life. There is no evidence to support that this was ever the case.
WITH REGARD TO CHARGES AGAINST LADY STONEHEART (ONCE KNOWN AS CATELYN STARK):
Charge 1B.-Lady Catelyn now know as 'Lady Stoneheart', led a band of outlaws known as 'The Brotherhood Without Banners' in the act of kidnapping and ransoming one Petyr Frey.
CHARGE DISMISSED / NO CONTEST - This judge does not recognize the line of Lannister bastards (Joffrey, Tommen) as lawful Kings, therefore whether the Brotherhood Without Banners are outlaws or not is a matter of conjecture. The BWB considered themselves once as doing the duty of King Robert Baratheon in enforcing the King's justice, as order by the lawful hand of the King, Eddard Stark.
Charge 7-(Attempted Murder)-Lady Catelyn now known as Lady Stoneheart upon finding Brienne of Tarth and her companion Podrick Payne, ordered her band of outlaws to hang Podrick Payne, a young man with no prior knowledge or dealings with her. The act was only halted once Brienne of Tarth forcefully agreed to Lady Catelyn's terms.
GUILTY.
The defendant did seek to fatally harm Podrick Payne, Ser Hyle Hunt, and Brienne of Tarth. Although nominally on the other side in an armed conflict, they did give themselves up without a fight and were entitled to better treatment than arbitrary executions. Furthermore, Brienne et. al. were acting in furtherance of a quest which the defendant herself (as Catelyn Stark) were trying to fulfil, therefore, it is not consistent with the principles of justice that she then try to "execute" the victims for events which she herself set in motion. To condone this would be to condone a sort of reverse oathbreaking.
SENTENCE: DEATH ? By fire, or valyrian sword, or whatever gets the job done. The court recognizes the unnatural state of being the defendant now exists in, and is not certain fire or sword will suffice.
Charge 8-(Murder) A.-Lady Catelyn and her band of outlaws had no interest in ransoming Petyr Frey and hanged him by the neck until he was dead before their requested ransom was paid.
8B.-Despite his claims to have taken no part in the Red Wedding, Merret Frey was also hanged from the neck until dead while trying to pay the requested ransom for Petyr Frey. No effort was made by Lady Catelyn to corroborate or discredit Merret's claims of innocence in the act.
GUILTY ON BOTH COUNTS.
Although the afformentioned Freys are themselves guilty of treason against the King In The North, Robb Stark, the Brotherhood Without banners has never considered themselves as subjects of Robb Stark, though individual members might see it that way. Indeed, as they promised ransom agreements or fair trials, and then reneged on this, the capture and summary killings of these victims is unlawful.
However, as per the Manderly Principle, this judge rules this a mercy killing.
Had they lived, the victims would have grown up to be (or already were) Freys.
SENTENCE: MONETARY FINE, equivalent to the ransom paid.
Charge 9-(Assault)-A charge of assault is warranted for her actions against Podrick Payne as severe bodily harm was done to him as a result of Lady Catelyn now known as Lady Staoneheart orders.
CHARGE DISMISSED. This charge is a duplication of charge 7 (Attempted murder.)

I love how you break down the charges in these trials. I'm not seeing the disconnect between Lady Catelyn and Lady Stoneheart though, but I'm open to arguments on why they should be treated as 2 separate entities.

danm_999 · March 5, 2013

Charge 1A.-(Kidnapping)This court charges Lady Catelyn Stark with the kidnapping of one Lord Tyrion Lannister of house Lannister. Lady Catelyn impeded Lord Tyrion's travel and forcefully took him to the Vale against his will to stand trial for charges unfounded.

Not Guilty. She had dubious authority, but enough to arrest Tyrion and have him tried.

Charge 1B.-Lady Catelyn now know as 'Lady Stoneheart', led a band of outlaws known as 'The Brotherhood Without Banners' in the act of kidnapping and ransoming one Petyr Frey.

Not Guilty by way of diminished responsibility/insanity. What came out of the Trident was not Catelyn Tully.

I don't think any modern court would have much difficulty Catelyn was transformed into something utterly alien.

Charge 2-(Miscarriage of Justice) Because of said actions this court charges Lady Catelyn with a miscarriage of justice. Lady Catelyn invoked the Kings Justice and was not called upon by the king to lawfully carry justice out in his name. **Lady Catelyn was also advised by her uncle Blackfish Tully that her sister Lady Lysa of the Vale did not have the mental capacity to carry out justice in the kings name. His warnings were ignored even after Lady Catelyn saw Lysa's mental state first hand.

Guilty. By this point, Catelyn had adequate forewarning that Lysa Tully would be an improper judge, and also had significant doubt that Tyrion had actually committed the crime for which she arrested him, given his argument he would never arm an assassin with his own dagger.

Charge 3-(Reckless Endangerment) To conceal and evade capture with her prisoner Tyrion Lannister, Lady Catelyn took her traveling party through the most dangerous region of the Vale. This act led to them being attacked by the Vale clansmen, endangering the life of her illegal captive.**After his acquittal of faulty charges initiated by Lady Catelyn Lord Tyrion had no choice but through a road in which capture by Vale Clansmen was imminent.

Guilty. Once Tyrion had been found innocent, Catelyn provided no method for Tyrion to safely exit the Vale of Arryn, and subjected him to a virtual death sentence having to cross a region she personally knew to be dangerous. Since he would never have been there except for her actions, and since she could easily have forseen this eventuality, and arranged an escort for Tyrion (even if it meant suffering his company a little longer), this is endangerment.

Charge-4(Inciting riots/chaos/war) Lady Catelyn's actions of kidnapping Tyrion Lannister, provoked a military response by his father Warden of the West Lord Tywin Lannister. A response that would not have occurred had she not unlawfully seized Tyrion Lannister.

Not Guilty. As far as Tywin knew, the arrest was legal and sanctioned by the Hand. He acted extra-legally, demonstrated by his dressing his forces in bandit clothing.

Charge 5-(Treason) Lady Catelyn unbeknownst to the King in the North negotiated with the enemy and agreed to terms without the kings knowledge. She released a prisoner of considerate value to the king and his allies "The King Slayer.' This court sites as precedence the trial of Alester Florent charge 3 'collusion'.

Not Guilty. Robb's provisional authority to negotiate terms with other sovereign entities had not yet been explicitly dispelled, so her treating with Jaime on behalf of Tyrion and Joffrey is little different to treating with Renly and Stannis.

Charge 6-(child neglect) Lady Catelyn is accused of neglecting the child of her husband Lord Eddard Stark from the day he was brought to Winterfell. Lady Catelyn actively spoke against the victim Jon Snow's character when given the opportunity. This court sites as evidence the conversation between Lady Catelyn and The King in the North Robb Stark in which she sort to convince Robb against legitimizing his brother because he was a bastard and bastards are treacherous.

Not Guilty. Catelyn has no legal or social obligation to Jon to care for him or act as an advocate.

Charge 7-(Attempted Murder)-Lady Catelyn now known as Lady Stoneheart upon finding Brienne of Tarth and her companion Podrick Payne, ordered her band of outlaws to hang Podrick Payne, a young man with no prior knowledge or dealings with her. The act was only halted once Brienne of Tarth forcefully agreed to Lady Catelyn's terms.
Charge 8-(Murder)1A.-Lady Catelyn and her band of outlaws had no interest in ransoming Petyr Frey and hanged him by the neck until he was dead before their requested ransom was paid.
1B.-Despite his claims to have taken no part in the Red Wedding, Merret Frey was also hanged from the neck until dead while trying to pay the requested ransom for Petyr Frey. No effort was made by Lady Catelyn to corroborate or discredit Merret's claims of innocence in the act.
Charge 9-(Assault)-A charge of assault is warranted for her actions against Podrick Payne as severe bodily harm was done to him as a result of Lady Catelyn now known as Lady Staoneheart orders.
Judges present your arguments!

Not Guilty for reasons of diminished responsibility. What came out of the Trident was not Catelyn Tully.

Ultimate judgement is a monetary fine paid to Tyrion Lannister for compensatory damages for failing to provide him with a fair trial, and endangering him post-trial.

Lion of Judah · March 5, 2013

@danm_999 I like the point you bring up about Catelyn not coming out of the Trident, but I would argue that 'Lady Stoneheart' as an embodiment of Catelyn is acting on Catelyn's behalf and no one else's. So why can we not within reason hold Catelyn accountable for crimes committed by Lady Stoneheart?

Lord Bronn Stokeworth · March 5, 2013

@danm_999 I like the point you bring up about Catelyn not coming out of the Trident, but I would argue that 'Lady Stoneheart' as an embodiment of Catelyn is acting on Catelyn's behalf and no one else's. So why can we not within reason hold Catelyn accountable for crimes committed by Lady Stoneheart?

Magic. We do not know in what ways magic affects people.

Drogo: Came back as a vegetable. MMD's words at least suggest that she knew Drogo wouldn't be the same Drogo afterwards.

Wights: Nothing suggests who there were remains.

Beric: He began losing memories due to his repeated animations (all closer to his death than Cat's, though we don't know if that matters), and I believe even said he had enough after Sandor killed him. It can also be considered that becoming a bandit lord of the people is rather unusual for a nobleman. Of course, we didn't know Beric beforehand really, so it is hard to judge whether or not that was characteristic of him or not.

danm_999 · March 5, 2013

@danm_999 I like the point you bring up about Catelyn not coming out of the Trident, but I would argue that 'Lady Stoneheart' as an embodiment of Catelyn is acting on Catelyn's behalf and no one else's. So why can we not within reason hold Catelyn accountable for crimes committed by Lady Stoneheart?

Well, I'd say because she's insane. There are loads of insanity tests across the world. In the UK they have something called the McNaughton rule which says;

at the time of committing the act, the accused was laboring under such a defect of reason, from disease of the mind, as not to know the nature and quality of the act he was doing or, if he did know it, that he did not know what he was doing was wrong.

In the US at a Federal level, after the Reagan assassination attempt, a law passed saying

at the time of the commission of the acts constituting the offense, the defendant, as a result of a severe mental disease or defect, was unable to appreciate the nature and quality or the wrongfulness of his acts

Now, let's look at Catelyn after Robb is killed in front of her;

The tears burned like vinegar as they ran down her cheeks. Ten fierce ravens were raking her face with sharp talons and tearing off strips of flesh, leaving deep furrows that ran red with blood. She could taste it on her lips. It hurts so much, she thought. Our children, Ned, all our sweet babes. Rickon, Bran, Arya, Sansa, Robb . . . Robb . . . please, Ned, please, make it stop, make it stop hurting . . . The white tears and the red ones ran together until her face was torn and tattered, the face that Ned had loved. Catelyn Stark raised her hands and watched the blood run down her long fingers, over her wrists, beneath the sleeves of her gown. Slow red worms crawled along her arms and under her clothes. It tickles. That made her laugh until she screamed. “Mad,” someone said, “she’s lost her wits,” and someone else said, “Make an end,” and a hand grabbed her scalp just as she’d done with Jinglebell, and she thought, No, don’t, don’t cut my hair, Ned loves my hair. Then the steel was at her throat, and its bite was red and cold.

I'd say the sanity ship has sailed there. She stops understanding things in that moment, she thinks ravens are pecking her face (when in fact she's clawing herself), she things little red worms are crawling on her arms and starts laughing (when Jingle bell's blood is dripping down her arms). She's had a mental break. She can't even process the violence she's doing to herself. And this is before she dies for several days, and who knows what impact that has on her brain.

To use another tact, I'd also say the fact that GRRM stops giving us Catelyn POVs is another pretty clear indication we aren't dealing with the same person anymore.

Lion of Judah · March 5, 2013

Well, I'd say because she's insane. There are loads of insanity tests across the world. In the UK they have something called the McNaughton rule which says;
In the US at a Federal level, after the Reagan assassination attempt, a law passed saying
Now, let's look at Catelyn after Robb is killed in front of her;
I'd say the sanity ship has sailed there. She stops understanding things in that moment, she thinks ravens are pecking her face (when in fact she's clawing herself), she things little red worms are crawling on her arms and starts laughing (when Jingle bell's blood is dripping down her arms). She's had a mental break. She can't even process the violence she's doing to herself. And this is before she dies for several days, and who knows what impact that has on her brain.
To use another tact, I'd also say the fact that GRRM stops giving us Catelyn POVs is another pretty clear indication we aren't dealing with the same person anymore.

The court finds the insanity argument to be credible, however the acts in question still pertain to Lady Catelyn alias Lady Stoneheart.

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