Despise Tyrion?

[lojzelote]

He was one of my favorites until he raped those women in ADwD. Now I feel much ambivalent about him.

OTOH, some people go to far in critizing him, making him the biggest fiend who ever walked Earthos, save maybe for Ramsey Bolton. The other day I flicked through a thread were some said that it was terrible and selfish he didn't tell on Jaime and Cersei after the Bran incident. Well, I can agree to a certain extent, but I do also find it completely understandable he didn't want to see his entire family utterly destroyed.

The funny part is though, that the very same posters in another thread only a day before patted Jaime on the back for changing that much. When someone objected that Jaime never truly reflected on or regreted his choice to push Bran out of the window to cover his crime, one of those posters who vehemently critized Tyrion for not betraying his siblings' secret answered: "How much regret is 'enough regret' then?" I was like Meh, if Tyrion is eeevil for not revealing the deed, then Jaime is even more so for actually commiting the deed.

Really, what am I supposed to think after reading those two threads?

/ rant

[protar]

Nothing wrong with despising someone who's at heart a cruel and ruthless jerk. Tyrion's a fascinating character, but as a person he's pretty terrible.

I see quite the opposite: a man who's good at his core but who does bad things as well. Tyrion consistently shows compassion to characters even when they are cruel to him, and unlike an awful lot of characters he is at least regretful of a lot of his actions.

Pretty horrible people do not show such consistent kindness and a desire to help others as Tyrion does.

[eggs]

Id say having his wife raped is reason enough to kill Tywin.

I'd say that it's headed that way when someone defends Tywin Lannister. There's bad parents, and then there's lying to your son, having his wife gang-raped and forcing him to do so too. While he's 13. Tyrion warned Tywin twice. Tywin didn't believe he had the guts. He was proven otherwise, and nobody will really miss the old bastard. Also, Tyrion didn't kill the singer because he flirted with Shea. The singer was to reveal the whole affair in front of the court, which knowing Tywin would mean her death and Tyrion's disgrace. The singer was offered gold to go away, he refused, so Tyrion got rid of him. I also find it funny that Tyrion,s stew is badtm , but Manderly serving Freys to their family makes him a badass.

Manderly is badass because he put himself at great risk, ate the pies, and even talked about having the rat cook played.

[TheMysteriousOne]

It doesn't change the fact that he did NOT bannish Tyrion to the NW or send him to the Free Cities where no one would be reminded that Tywin Lannister had a dwarf son, all of which he could have done easily.

Tyrion doesn't owe Tywin anything for doing what a father is supposed to do. Sorry, Tywin doesn't win any points for not killing/banishing his son.

I don't see that Tywin deserved death. The things that he deserved death for--Gregor Clegane, killing the Targaryen children, the Red Wedding, various other atrocities, none of that had anything to do with Tyrion and that isn't why Tyrion killed him. Tyrion was fine with all the atrocities his father committed all those years he was committing them until he finally just lost his shit and committed murder, but the murder was for being belittled, and that is not a reason to kill your father.

You're contradicting yourself here.

Anyways, where does it say that Tyrion was fine with the murder of the Targaryen children or that he was fine with the Red Wedding. IMO, Tywin deserved to die.

[Cas Stark]

Tyrion didn't kill his father for any of the atrocities he committed. He killed him because even though he was holding a crossbow on him, Tywin continued to talk down to him and belittle him.

So, don't fool yourself that when he murdered his father he was doing it to avenge Robb Stark or Elia of Dorne or the dead princess or the people the Mountain brutalized over the years. He killed his father because his father hurt his pride one too many times and that is not sufficient reason for murder.

[TheMysteriousOne]

You do not know what cruel and evil mean apparently. He does not do evil for evil's sake. He does not hurt people because he likes it. For him brutality is a tool to be used that gives no pleasure - it's just something that has to be done when nessesary. Those are traits of a strong medieval ruler - read about the medieval warfare in Europe, about the 100 year war in particular.

Doesn't mean that he isn't evil.

[lady m]

Peter Dinklage is the best thing to happen to Tyrion. He can quip away and you don't have to hear the woe is me, no one loves me, no one cares about me, poor little rich boy, commentary going on in his head all the time.

[nekrohsis]

Wow, you leave for twenty minutes and the boards explode.

It's important to remember that the specific act that goaded Tyrion into shooting Tywin was learning that Tysha was not a whore, that she loved him, and Tywin destroyed her for that. So if someone arranges for your wife to be gang raped, you would probably want to kill them.

Also, is his POV whiny in ADWD? A little. But keep in mind, a lot of people can be whiny inside their heads and not act that way in public. For Pete's sake, people have a right to think what they want. You don't have to like it, but it's not like he's going around complaining about his life to everyone he meets.

[Joyful Union]

Tyrion didn't kill his father for any of the atrocities he committed. He killed him because even though he was holding a crossbow on him, Tywin continued to talk down to him and belittle him.

So, don't fool yourself that when he murdered his father he was doing it to avenge Robb Stark or Elia of Dorne or the dead princess or the people the Mountain brutalized over the years. He killed his father because his father hurt his pride one too many times and that is not sufficient reason for murder.

"Hurt his pride"? Have you read the same books as I have? He didnt just hurt his pride, he cursed Tyrion's very existence (You who killed your own mother etc), ordered his wife raped, and put him on trial for murder! Do you understand what pride is?

[ARYa_Nym]

He was one of my favorites until he raped those women in ADwD. Now I feel much ambivalent about him.

OTOH, some people go to far in critizing him, making him the biggest fiend who ever walked Earthos, save maybe for Ramsey Bolton. The other day I flicked through a thread were some said that it was terrible and selfish he didn't tell on Jaime and Cersei after the Bran incident. Well, I can agree to a certain extent, but I do also find it completely understandable he didn't want to see his entire family utterly destroyed.

The funny part is though, that the very same posters in another thread only a day before patted Jaime on the back for changing that much. When someone objected that Jaime never truly reflected on or regreted his choice to push Bran out of the window to cover his crime, one of those posters who vehemently critized Tyrion for not betraying his siblings' secret answered: "How much regret is 'enough regret' then?" I was like Meh, if Tyrion is eeevil for not revealing the deed, then Jaime is even more so for actually commiting the deed.

Really, what am I supposed to think after reading those two threads?

/ rant

I like this post. I may be in a minority but Jamie is the worst of the three Lannister kids for me. I can sympathize with Tyrion and Cersei on some level to some degree but I can't with Jamie. Jamie's thoughts on being Goldenhand the Just and fans talking about his redemption also makes him worse to me.

This is just for me personally. Anyone is free to disagree.

[Lord Illidan Stormrage]

Doesn't mean that he isn't evil.

Are the Allies in World War Two evil for bombing innocent people in Berlin? Are the American's evil for the neuclear bombs that forced the Japanese to surrender? I would rather have Tywin at my side when war comes than someone who cannon make hard desisions - Dany does not make them as much as i like her, her rule shows why Tywin is good leader.

[Cas Stark]

Tyrion doesn't owe Tywin anything for doing what a father is supposed to do. Sorry, Tywin doesn't win any points for not killing/banishing his son.

You're contradicting yourself here.

Anyways, where does it say that Tyrion was fine with the murder of the Targaryen children or that he was fine with the Red Wedding. IMO, Tywin deserved to die.

I edited the post, what I meant was that Tywin didn't deserve to die at the hands of Tyrion because Tyrion didn't kill for any of the atrocities he committed. Tyrion was fine with the atrocities because he kept on taking his father's money and living off his father's prestige and throwing around his family's name, which was a named to be feared and respected becasue Tywin made it so.

It doesn't seem that people can make a distinction between Tywin Lannister being a person who deserved death and it still being wrong that his son killed him for reasons not related to any of his major atrocities.

[TheMysteriousOne]

Tyrion didn't kill his father for any of the atrocities he committed. He killed him because even though he was holding a crossbow on him, Tywin continued to talk down to him and belittle him.

So, don't fool yourself that when he murdered his father he was doing it to avenge Robb Stark or Elia of Dorne or the dead princess or the people the Mountain brutalized over the years. He killed his father because his father hurt his pride one too many times and that is not sufficient reason for murder.

Tyrion suffered emotional and psychological abuse at the hands of Tywin Lannister.

[The Great Walrus]

I like this post. I may be in a minority but Jamie is the worst of the three Lannister kids for me. I can sympathize with Tyrion and Cersei on some level to some degree but I can't with Jamie. Jamie's thoughts on being Goldenhand the Just and fans talking about his redemption also makes him worse to me.

This is just for me personally. Anyone is free to disagree.

Me too, although for me it's a tie between Cersei and Jaime for worst Lannister...

[David Selig]

Tyrion didn't kill his father for any of the atrocities he committed. He killed him because even though he was holding a crossbow on him, Tywin continued to talk down to him and belittle him.

So, don't fool yourself that when he murdered his father he was doing it to avenge Robb Stark or Elia of Dorne or the dead princess or the people the Mountain brutalized over the years. He killed his father because his father hurt his pride one too many times and that is not sufficient reason for murder.

So what, Tyrion still put the monster down, even if his reasons weren't the best (though for my money Tywin certainly deserved death for what he did to Tysha, and this was a big reason why Tyrion murdered him).

I see quite the opposite: a man who's good at his core but who does bad things as well. Tyrion consistently shows compassion to characters even when they are cruel to him, and unlike an awful lot of characters he is at least regretful of a lot of his actions.

Pretty horrible people do not show such consistent kindness and a desire to help others as Tyrion does.

What consistent kindness? For five books there are about a handful of such moments in total. Which are more than offset by his murders and other terrible acts.

[The Great Walrus]

Tyrion suffered emotional and psychological abuse at the hands of Tywin Lannister.

You could say this for all three of the Lannister children...

[Jasta11]

It doesn't change the fact that he did NOT bannish Tyrion to the NW or send him to the Free Cities where no one would be reminded that Tywin Lannister had a dwarf son, all of which he could have done easily.

Instead, while he unquestionably treated him badly, he still gave him access to Lannister money and made him Hand of the King and from Tywin's perspective the Sansa Stark marriage is a great match. And, I don't believe he was lying when he said he wasn't going to execute him but send him to the Wall.

The things that he deserved death for--Gregor Clegane, killing the Targaryen children, the Red Wedding, various other atrocities, none of that had anything to do with Tyrion and that isn't why Tyrion killed him. Tyrion was fine with all the atrocities his father committed all those years he was committing them until he finally just lost his shit and committed murder, but the murder was for being belittled, and that is not a reason to kill your father.

At this point I'm not sure if the Night's Watch isin't a better alternative than scorn at best and intense emotionnal abuse at worst from your own father.

Also, the money argument is silly. Tyrion has lots of money to spend on whores, booze and sellswords, but that doesn't excuse what Tywin does to him, not in a million years. The marriage to Sansa was for purely political reasons, it had nothing to do with making Tyrion happy. His father keeps him around because 1) he's the only children he has that's not a nutcase and 2) he's a Lannister, and soiling his name means soiling his house's name. That's it.

I can see now that this is going to devolve rather swiftly into the usual quasi flamerwars surrounding Tyrion. The OP is right, he does get a rather disproportionate amount of flak from some people.

[TheMysteriousOne]

Are the Allies in World War Two evil for bombing innocent people in Berlin? Are the American's evil for the neuclear bombs that forced the Japanese to surrender? I would rather have Tywin at my side when war comes than someone who cannon make hard desisions - Dany does not make them as much as i like her, her rule shows why Tywin is good leader.

For the people who died in Berlin and their family members the Allies were probably bad. The Americans were wrong to use the nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I am American but I have never agreed with what they did, but war is war.

[TheMysteriousOne]

You could say this for all three of the Lannister children...

All three did, but Tyrion most of all.

[nekrohsis]

Let's not talk about WW2. That kind of talk gets nasty fast.