Walking Dead Season 3, Vol. 6 {No comics spoilers in here}

[MisterOJ]

Wow. That other thread is way over-long and devolved into bitching and moaning.

Pretty much like every other TWD thread I suppose.

So, time to start anew. I didn't get to see the episode until last night. I was a little underwhelmed at times, but overall it was a decent setup episode.

One thing I find myself thinking about this season a lot: TIME.

How much time do y'all think has passed from the first episode until now? Two or three weeks? Two or three months? I have no idea. They're not really saying at all in the episodes, which sorta bothers me.

[Morpheus]

Do you mean just the first episode of the season, I'd guess a couple of weeks. Wounds seem to heal quickly but I think that is just inconsistency and not an indicator of time.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

The original Walking Dead source material is not meant to be "fun and campy" which is where the majority of my criticism is coming from. As someone who is a huge fan of the comics, I can't stand their take on the story. I don't understand why it's so hard to tell the story the way it was meant to be told. There's a reason why people loved the comics before there was even a show, it's a great story. It doesn't need to be changed or turned into camp.

I don't think the TV show is remotely campy, nor is it intended to be. It is intended to be utterly serious, other than in the sense that characters might joke among themselves just as real people do. The Talking Dead is different, but even they consider the serious aspect of it and seem to understand that their humor is something they've actually added with their commentary, not something found in the original, i.e., the zombie deaths. But that commentary doesn't change the content of the show itself.

Nah, I think the Gov came out ahead of that one. He pushed Rick's buttons and Rick is apparently still crazy enough to believe a word of what the Gov was saying.

I didn't like the episode, but I think Rick's groups came out the clear winner for two reasons.

First, there is no longer any doubt as to the governor's intentions. Rick drew up a map and went to a meeting anticipating that a resolution was possible. That demonstrates that he thought there was a possibility war could be avoided. He left the meeting knowing that, unless he's willing to turn over Michonne, a war is inevitable. I think that may free his hands in terms of being willing to take more offensive action. Killing in cold blood people who may be willing to let you live in peace is one thing. Killing in cold blood people you know are bent on killing you is something else.

Second, Hershel's conversations with Smithers and Andrea clearly had an impact that goes beyond that meeting, sowing dissention among the Governor's own people. Hershel brings home the meeting trophy for Rick's group.

ETA: on the issue of Andrea's looks....the producers have chosen to have her trot around naked, presumably for a reason, and it's apparently all her. Given that they apparently want us to see her naked, I don't see why her looks aren't fair game for commentary because they've made it part of the show. OTOH, focusing on Carol's or Maggie's looks would be a bit different because other than the lesbian thing, they've never made looks a significant part of those caharacters, and haven't had them run around naked.

That being said, I personally could care less what she looks like.

[MisterOJ]

Do you mean just the first episode of the season, I'd guess a couple of weeks. Wounds seem to heal quickly but I think that is just inconsistency and not an indicator of time.

Yeah, first episode of the season.

I'm thinking that it's been longer than that. Andrea setting up the meeting between Rick and the Governor took place all offscreen between episodes. I'm thinking that took a while to work out. A couple weeks, at least.

I'm thinking it's been at least a month, maybe longer, since the first episode of the season. We don't really have any way of knowing though. I'm curious as to what others think.

[Isalie]

Yeah, seems odd to think that the "war" should've gone on for more than a couple of days really, a couple of weeks at most. The only wound that doesn't instaheal is the Gov's eye ;)

[awesome possum]

Reposting from the previous thread:

I think Rick is weighing his options. Either he doesn't give Michonne over and the Governor comes with guns a blazing and many people will die. Or he can give up Michonne and take the small iota of a chance that the Gov keeps his word and lets them all go. It has to do with the lost hope Rick rediscovered last episode with Morgan. There has to be hope, or he becomes a monster too. He knows very well that the Governor is likely to try to kill them all no matter what, but there is that tiny sliver of hope that he remains true to his word and in Rick's eyes, the lives of his children are worth that hope.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Uh, what do they eat in Woodbury, anyway? 60+ people is an awful lot to survive on just scavenging.

[MisterOJ]

Uh, what do they eat in Woodbury, anyway? 60+ people is an awful lot to survive on just scavenging.

Is it though? I live in a pretty small town. Like 7,000 people. I imagine Woodbury was about that size? If the ZA happens and we suddenly have only about 70-80 folks living here, I am pretty sure we could live on scavenged food for a good long time. When I think about what is here in town right now - we have a Super Walmart and three other decent-sized grocery stores. Plus a bunch of restaurants, convenience stores and other places. Not to mention just folks' houses.

And that's without having to leave town and scavenge other nearby towns, which would have more stuff than we have here.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

He knows very well that the Governor is likely to try to kill them all no matter what, but there is that tiny sliver of hope that he remains true to his word and in Rick's eyes, the lives of his children are worth that hope.

Though I think the immorality of the decision alone should preclude turning over Michonne, it is a horrible decision for another very practical reason as well.

The justification for turning over Michonne is to save the rest of the group, and the problem with that is the logical consequences. If Rick is willing to turn over Michonne to save the rest of the group, then what about the next time a choice has to be made between risking the group, and saving a member? If Rick will turn over Michonne to save (essentially) his kids, then that doesn't give the other members of the group much confidence that he'll stick by them. That turns them from a group that is strong because they look out for each other, to a group where people start looking out more for themselves. That weakens everyone's chance at survival.

Or to put it in the Shane/Otis situation, some folks might defend Shane shooting Otis. But the next time Shane wants a partner to volunteer for a scavenge, I think he'd likely find volunteers in a bit shorter supply.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Is it though? I live in a pretty small town. Like 7,000 people. I imagine Woodbury was about that size? If the ZA happens and we suddenly have only about 70-80 folks living here, I am pretty sure we could live on scavenged food for a good long time. When I think about what is here in town right now - we have a Super Walmart and three other decent-sized grocery stores. Plus a bunch of restaurants, convenience stores and other places. Not to mention just folks' houses.

And that's without having to leave town and scavenge other nearby towns, which would have more stuff than we have here.

This goes back to the point that the rest of the population didn't disappear overnight. Think about when there are natural disasters even now. Stores run out of food fast when there aren't trucks bringing in more several times a week, and in a panic, that's magnified. Morgan noted that what got them was the hunt for food, meaning that they'd have stayed safe inside if they had food. In the days/weeks it took for the whole thing to fall apart, that's exactly what everyone would have done. Cleaned out all the local stores of food, battened down the hatches, and wandered outside when they needed to. More than anything else, I suspect the lack of food is what caused society to break down just as fast as the walkers did.

The idea of completely full grocery stores surviving the first few weeks just wouldn't have happened. They'd have been mostly cleaned out by people when they started seeing news reports.

[Isalie]

Second, Hershel's conversations with Smithers and Andrea clearly had an impact that goes beyond that meeting, sowing dissention among the Governor's own people. Hershel brings home the meeting trophy for Rick's group.

This one I must admit I didn't really consider, and I agree, especially since we've already seen the effect it will have ;) but it wasn't really thanks to Rick though, and in pure Rick vs Gov, I think the Gov won. That said, I'd kind of concede the killing in cold blood point too, even though they already knew the Gov was batshit, since I guess it takes a lot of convincing to kill someone in cold blood.

[MisterOJ]

This goes back to the point that the rest of the population didn't disappear overnight. Think about when there are natural disasters even now. Stores run out of food fast when there aren't trucks bringing in more several times a week, and in a panic, that's magnified. Morgan noted that what got them was the hunt for food, meaning that they'd have stayed safe inside if they had food. In the days/weeks it took for the whole thing to fall apart, that's exactly what everyone would have done. Cleaned out all the local stores of food, battened down the hatches, and wandered outside when they needed to. More than anything else, I suspect the lack of food is what caused society to break down just as fast as the walkers did.

The idea of completely full grocery stores surviving the first few weeks just wouldn't have happened. They'd have been mostly cleaned out by people when they started seeing news reports.

True, but where is all that food going? Most of it is not going to be eaten though. It's going to wind up in houses and in cars stranded on the highway. It might make it a little tougher to find, but it's still there waiting to be scavenged, I think.

[awesome possum]

Though I think the immorality of the decision alone should preclude turning over Michonne, it is a horrible decision for another very practical reason as well.

The justification for turning over Michonne is to save the rest of the group, and the problem with that is the logical consequences. If Rick is willing to turn over Michonne to save the rest of the group, then what about the next time a choice has to be made between risking the group, and saving a member? If Rick will turn over Michonne to save (essentially) his kids, then that doesn't give the other members of the group much confidence that he'll stick by them. That turns them from a group that is strong because they look out for each other, to a group where people start looking out more for themselves. That weakens everyone's chance at survival.

Or to put it in the Shane/Otis situation, some folks might defend Shane shooting Otis. But the next time Shane wants a partner to volunteer for a scavenge, I think he'd likely find volunteers in a bit shorter supply.

All very true, though I'd say Hershel, Beth, Maggie, Glenn, Carol and Daryl are all part of the family while Michonne, for now, is just a welcomed house guest. She's not quite an immersed part of the group, which might make her more expendable.

But I completely agree it would be a terrible decision and not just because the Governor is planning to kill them all anyway.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Minor complaint, but the way this season's been written, the Prison is vulnerable, for some reason, to an attack by the Governor. I just don't see physically how that works. I mean, if the people in the prison barricade the hell out of it it seems to me that a small force could easily defend it against 5 times their number without losing a lot of people. It's like assaulting a fortress.

So the governor's whole "We could have killed all of you"... I'm not really buying it. Maybe if they were all out in the open, yeah, sure. But if they stay in the prison? Shouldn't they be able to hold it, even if they have to constantly retreat further into it?

Anyway, it's not really a big deal but they've suggested that the prison is somehow an inherently weak position, and I just don't see it.

[Isalie]

All very true, though I'd say Hershel, Beth, Maggie, Glenn, Carol and Daryl are all part of the family while Michonne, for now, is just a welcomed house guest. She's not quite an immersed part of the group, which might make her more expendable.

Well, prior to the episode before this, Carl apparently would've tossed her to the wolves, but now she's one of them. There's really no way they'll go through with it, but I guess it will cause drama within the group...

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

True, but where is all that food going? Most of it is not going to be eaten though. It's going to wind up in houses and in cars stranded on the highway. It might make it a little tougher to find, but it's still there waiting to be scavenged, I think.

I think most of it really would have been eaten. Scared people hide out, and venture out only when their out of food or need more, only to become zombie food themselves. But even to the extent there is some remaining in cars, etc., you've got 60 plus people in Woodbury. How many cars/homes do you need to scavenge every single day just to feed all those people?

I guess my point is that the long-term acquisition of food sources should be the primary concern, or at least near the top of the list, for someone like the Gov, but we really never hear of it. Food could/should be the driving source of tension between rival groups.

[Isalie]

Minor complaint, but the way this season's been written, the Prison is vulnerable, for some reason, to an attack by the Governor. I just don't see physically how that works. I mean, if the people in the prison barricade the hell out of it it seems to me that a small force could easily defend it against 5 times their number without losing a lot of people. It's like assaulting a fortress.

So the governor's whole "We could have killed all of you"... I'm not really buying it. Maybe if they were all out in the open, yeah, sure. But if they stay in the prison? Shouldn't they be able to hold it, even if they have to constantly retreat further into it?

Anyway, it's not really a big deal but they've suggested that the prison is somehow an inherently weak position, and I just don't see it.

I feel exactly the same way, only I think it is a big deal ;)

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Minor complaint, but the way this season's been written, the Prison is vulnerable, for some reason, to an attack by the Governor. I just don't see physically how that works. I mean, if the people in the prison barricade the hell out of it it seems to me that a small force could easily defend it against 5 times their number without losing a lot of people. It's like assaulting a fortress.

Well, it's a fortress with no water or food sources, and with insufficient people to guard all the walls. The Gov. basically showed that a few random snipers would be able to pick off anyone wandering outside the walls, and since you don't know when snipers are out there and when they aren't, it is scary as hell. I think Glenn made the point that they were running out of food, so simply holing up isn't an option. Really, in this situation, I think attackers who are willing just to show up, pick off a couple of people with scoped weapons, and then disappear, have a huge advantage. Heck, Rick's group could do that at Woodbury, knocking off anyone manning that wall. You're standing guard, looking for walkers, and you get a bullet in the head at 150 meters.

Anyway, it's not really a big deal but they've suggested that the prison is somehow an inherently weak position, and I just don't see it.

The prison is meant to keep folks in, not out, and that's a difference. The tower, for example, is a great place to be if you're an armed prison guard, but if you're an armed defender from external attack, you've basically got a bulls-eye painted on you for anyone outside the walls. And if you're outnumbered that badly, anyone inside who pops their head over the wall to take a shot outside is going to have a lot of folks shooting at their heads. If you retreat further into the prison, you now have backed yourself into a place with no access to food or water, while the people who now control the outer part of the prison are free to continue scavenging outside.

That being said, the greter experience of Rick's groups should be a huge factor. Taking all those Woodbury noncombatants and handing them guns doesn't make them able to hit anything, nor does it make them the type of folks who won't panic as soon as things get squrrelly. That's why Tyreese's group was so important. That really would have swung the balance much more heavily in Rick's favor.

[Isalie]

Doesn't the prison have any windows though, and the first shot fired from the outside should start bringing zombies.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Doesn't the prison have any windows though, and the first shot fired from the outside should start bringing zombies.

People on the walls of the prison or in the tower are more visible than someone slinking in the woods. Sneak up, fire 3-4 aimed, scoped shots at whoever is on the walls or in the tower, then leave. Kill just one person a day, and in a week, Rick's group barely exists. And most of the windows are lower than the walls, and still don't give all-around visibility.

The prison was supposed to be good because it had a yard where food could be grown, etc.. That's impossible with hostile force able to show up at any time to harass.