Becoming No One: Rereading Arya III

[Uncat]

The thing about the hound is, that he his really sort of a flat character mesured by Martin's standards and kind of a trope. The bad guys top killer who is hit by love, knocked out of its orbit (love your picture, Lummel) finds redemption and will show up some place just in time to die saving his little bird.

That's why I'm with you both, Lyanna and Lummel on the redemption thing. Sandor is recalibrating but that will not necessarily mean redemption.

I like, how the helmet of the hound - his persona in terms of the classic greek theater - gets separated from the men. The gost of the Hound travells on and we meet him again and not for the last time, I'm sure.

Thus, Sandor is freed of the Hound. But that means, that he needs to figure out, who he is and what he really wants. That still might be revenge on his brother. Actually, now that he no longer needs to be the trusted and good hound to house Lannister, he is free to persue this revenge.

[Lyanna Stark]

Good grief, snooker allegories. I thought I'd seen it all!! :lol:

The thing about the hound is, that he his really sort of a flat character mesured by Martin's standards and kind of a trope. The bad guys top killer who is hit by love, knocked out of its orbit (love your picture, Lummel) finds redemption and will show up some place just in time to die saving his little bird.

Yes, I think at a quick read through, Sandor comes across as perhaps shallow, but once you break it down a bit more, he is actually extremely multifaceted for a "minor" character (I tend to think he's "minor" in the same way as Littlefinger or Jorah Mormont though :P ) and the "redemption" theme falls flat in the same way, since it seems unlikely he'll be going about saving anyone in particular. Perhaps Sansa will get to save him, in the regard that she would be able to give him new purpose. :) It would also fit with Lummel's snooker reference (why oh why? :lol: ) in that the Starks are the catalysts, the movers and shakers, and things happen around them, whether they will it or not.

That's why I'm with you both, Lyanna and Lummel on the redemption thing. Sandor is recalibrating but that will not necessarily mean redemption.

I agree. Plus, with all the paralells with Jaime Lannister, another man recalibrating his moral compass, there doesn't seem to be a need of something as tropey as redemption. The recalibration is more human, messier, less clear cut and more prone to create conflict, which is far more exciting than redemption and finding god (or Gods, or trees, or getting drowned or whatever).

I like, how the helmet of the hound - his persona in terms of the classic greek theater - gets separated from the men. The gost of the Hound travells on and we meet him again and not for the last time, I'm sure.

At the end of Arya's arc I will post my grand unified Lem as the new Hound theory :P

Thus, Sandor is freed of the Hound. But that means, that he needs to figure out, who he is and what he really wants. That still might be revenge on his brother. Actually, now that he no longer needs to be the trusted and good hound to house Lannister, he is free to persue this revenge.

Indeed. Sandor has a choice in what he wants to become. And this is yet another identity arc, it seems. Lack of identity, finding a new identity or trying to figure out who you are are recurring themes, it seems. :)

[Lummel]

...I like, how the helmet of the hound - his persona in terms of the classic greek theater - gets separated from the men. The gost of the Hound travells on and we meet him again and not for the last time, I'm sure...

Indeed. Sandor has a choice in what he wants to become. And this is yet another identity arc, it seems. Lack of identity, finding a new identity or trying to figure out who you are are recurring themes, it seems. :)

Yes it is like Greek theatre. The actors wore masks. You could put down the mask and somebody else could take it up. And that is precisely what will happen with the Hound and Lem. The Hound is a persona, which is just latin for mask. The Hound Helm is the physical embodiment of that rage and pain and hate. Sandor puts down that persona and Lem takes it up (this is like

...) as times goes on in the BWB he's just getting more angry and more rage filled and less able to cope or move on from the murder of his family.

I think that is one of GRRM's strengths. Sandor doesn't have much page time, and Lem far less, but you can still see character development and change.

And yes, surprise, surprise, identity emerges as a theme. We can't escape it :) and what identity does Beric have now that he is dead, or ahem, sorry Uncat, alternatively alive? More on that I suppose in future chapters.

...(why oh why? :lol: )...

I like to think I have a reputation ;) (I'm not even a snooker fan and generally can only play by cheating)

... the Starks are the catalysts, the movers and shakers, and things happen around them, whether they will it or not...

Some POVs are catalysts. Tyrion is another good one. He's the White ball shot into the Reds to

into the existing order (arrgghh it's addictive I can't stop), or in other words almost where ever he goes chaos follows. Sansa definitely has a catalytic effect on Sandor, potentially on Lannister/Tyrell relations. Arya is in the weasel soup a catalyst denied - ie the coup was going to happen anyway, just in a different way, maybe with the huntsman and the crow cages but I think there are a couple of examples later on when Arya causes change.

[Blisscraft]

Glad you're back, Lyanna. Missed your insights.

The only thing that bothers me about the redemption discussion, and I'm not disagreeing, mind you, is that redemption cannot be accomplished by an outside force. It comes from within. The path of vengence, as shown in Hamlet, probably the best example of how revenge eats away at an individual's soul, is a hunt for death and destruction. The vengence path leads to death and destruction, not only of the wrong doer (in Martin, The Mountain; in Shakespeare, Claudius), but also of the revenger seeker (in Martin, the Hound; in Shakespeare, Hamlet). As a pathway to violence, it is a personal struggle.

That being said, neither one of the Stark girls has or will have the power to pull Sandor away from his revenge path just as Ophelia could not (nor anyone else in Hamlet for that matter). Hopefully, Sandor pulls away from his need for revenge of his own accord. I hope by extention, Arya will pull away from her need for revenge, too. If she does pull away, it will be a personal struggle, within herself.

Also, Uncat, love the mask idea. Fits very nicely in "the play" being "the thing."

One last note, Beric's blood fuels the fire on his sword as he fights Sandor. It is not a mummer's trick with wildfire as Thoros used against his tourney opponenets in KL. There's something about blood fueling fire that is a metaphor for revenge as well. Revenge consumes the very essence of life, one's blood. Also, the need for vengence or revenge usually comes from a need to fix some wrong to our "blood" or relations, our kin.

[Uncat]

Some POVs are catalysts.  Tyrion is another good one.  He's the White ball shot into the Reds to break off into the existing order (arrgghh it's addictive I can't stop)

And there is me killing a post I had started with Tyrion as the eight-ball - the one that needs to stay on the table :)

Blisscraft, the fire burning from blood... There has been a lot of discussion on Weirwoods drinking blood. But for now, the most blood thirsty god has been Rhollor.

And aren't the Rholloristas on an eternal hunt, too? Always waiting for "the Great Other", the enemy to show his face somewhere in oder to rush there and to hunt him down? The flame of Rhollor can be seen as a flame of hate burning bright against everything not Rhollor.

[Lyanna Stark]

Glad to be back Blisscraft. :) I missed this thread!

Yes it is like Greek theatre. The actors wore masks. You could put down the mask and somebody else could take it up. And that is precisely what will happen with the Hound and Lem. The Hound is a persona, which is just latin for mask. The Hound Helm is the physical embodiment of that rage and pain and hate. Sandor puts down that persona and Lem takes it up (this is like

...) as times goes on in the BWB he's just getting more angry and more rage filled and less able to cope or move on from the murder of his family.

I think that is one of GRRM's strengths. Sandor doesn't have much page time, and Lem far less, but you can still see character development and change.

I really like that analysis that we take on different roles depending on circumstances and that the roles are both created by us but also affect us. Again, identity as a theme, no? :)

Also totally agreed that GRRM manages with very little page time sketch compelling characters and describe their development in a psychologically believeable way. Sandor, Lem and Arya, together with a lot of the cast of the Riverlands are extremely tragic and moving examples of what war does to the land, to the people, to history itself. I also really like how even the most "badass" characters have very human dimensions. Sandor Clegane is this huge warrior guy, extremely fierce and skilled, yet in this chapter and in some of Sansa's chapters, we get to see other sides of him, vulnerable sides, which imbues his character with humanity and makes us able to understand him and also sympathise with him. In this I think the reader reflection travels along with Arya; we may agree that he has done horrible things, but can we really think killing him in all his misery is the right thing to do?

The only thing that bothers me about the redemption discussion, and I'm not disagreeing, mind you, is that redemption cannot be accomplished by an outside force. It comes from within. The path of vengence, as shown in Hamlet, probably the best example of how revenge eats away at an individual's soul, is a hunt for death and destruction. The vengence path leads to death and destruction, not only of the wrong doer (in Martin, The Mountain; in Shakespeare, Claudius), but also of the revenger seeker (in Martin, the Hound; in Shakespeare, Hamlet). As a pathway to violence, it is a personal struggle.

That being said, neither one of the Stark girls has or will have the power to pull Sandor away from his revenge path just as Ophelia could not (nor anyone else in Hamlet for that matter). Hopefully, Sandor pulls away from his need for revenge of his own accord. I hope by extention, Arya will pull away from her need for revenge, too. If she does pull away, it will be a personal struggle, within herself.

This is very well put. Only the person themselves can decide to change. I think in GRRM's case it's clear how what happens to the characters affect them and that in turn triggers change within them, and growth, but as you say it's not just due to an outside force, it's when the character reasons, thinks and feels we get that magical growth effect.

Really like your take on vengeance being inherently destructive as well. I think that is an important point to keep in mind when we move further along Arya's arc.

[Lummel]

...I really like that analysis that we take on different roles depending on circumstances and that the roles are both created by us but also affect us. Again, identity as a theme, no? ...Sandor Clegane is this huge warrior ...but can we really think killing him in all his misery is the right thing to do?

So long as he puts on his hair shirt and goes forth to skip with the butterflys and tell small children that god is love I'm happy.Identity is a big theme - very clear in ADWD in which perhaps only Victarion doesn't have an identity crisis (but then he is a bit dim).I was thinking this back to Arya. Is she pursuing this case through the courts as a victim? What justice is she appealing to? A child's sense of fairness?

[Lady Arya's Song]

I am not sure if this is the right place to post this or the right time, but I noticed a similarity between Arya's journey and Tyrion's journey. ADWD Tyrion VII pg. 356.

Tyrion is put in chains by an iron smith (Gendry). Tyrion says "Or were you afraid that I would dash away on these stunted little legs of mine." (Arya)

The fetters Tyrion is wearing are like a costume to disguise the importance and possible danger Tyrion would be in? Similar to Arya being disguised as a boy in the train going north? And Tyrion like Arya can be turned into someone for a reward.

Tyrion : " I will be a good little slave prisoner, I will I will". This reminds me of Arya with Harwin or even Arya with Sandor later when he keeps trussing her up like a cabbage roll. Come to think of it I believe Tyrion was trussed up in a similar fashion.

Jorah says to Tyrion "Prove it then and shut your mouth." So he Tyrion bowed his head and bit his tongue (Arya bites her lips as a habit when she is upset) as the chains were fixed. Sandor also says to Arya "Shut your mouth."

To me the description of Tyrion and Jorah going through the gateway in Volantis is very similar to how Arya describes her journey north earlier with Yoran and the boys. The road she traveled was narrow and they were stymied by an oxen cart. Tyrion and Jorah experience the same inconvenience with a wagon laden with melons.

The description of the Inn in Volantis The Merchant's House has imagery that reminded me of the hollow hill and also the inn where Arya was taken by the BWB and also the Cave where Bran is located. Vogarro's whore description is similar to Blood Raven, the kindly man, and also Beric Dondarion and Lady Stoneheart.

In the common room a dwarf ie Penny sees Tyrion and pleads for someone to kill him. This is Arya and Sandor all over again. Jorah is referred to as a knight which is Beric Dondarian. Also the Widow takes Penny the dwarf upstairs to find her decent clothes..which is what happened to Arya with the Lady at Acorn Hall. Acorns remind me of the pig and the dog reminds me of Sandor.

Penny tries to kill the dwarf. Arya tried to kill Sandor.

" The girl was on him again "No she wailed, "Let go"! Jorah had her by the collar " Enough" he says the landlord appeared with a cudgel.. I am not sure if its only my reading but this all reminded me of Arya and the huntsman and Lem.

Pennys explanation about why she wants Tyrion dead is so very similar to Arya's pleading in regard to the death of Mycah.

I am sorry if this was not the proper place to post this but I guess I am wondering if in reading this Tyrion chapter and seeing the similarities to Arya and Sandor and the BWB is George giving us further glimpses into the Arya character and the Sandor /Jorah character? Jorah is pretty frightening to look upon and his character is giving me the willies. Tyrion and Penny seem to get past the death issue of Penny's brother with Tyrion looking out for Penny. Is this perhaps a foreshadow of Sandor and Arya in the future. Sandor did express his guilt to Arya over Mycah and Tyrion also expresses his guilt to himself over Penny's situation.

Please forgive me if this is the wrong place to post this. I love the character of Arya however I am not so good at analysis I am in awe of most of you with your indepth posts on the characters. I am not sure if someone already covered all the similarities I found between Tyrion and Penny and Sandor and Arya..if so..sorry for reposting.

[Lummel]

I am not sure if this is the right place to post this or the right time, but I noticed a similarity between Arya's journey and Tyrion's journey. ADWD Tyrion VII pg. 356.

Great minds think alike! http://asoiaf.wester...0#entry4215851:)

Don't be shy now. You could cross post it in Rereading Tyrion if you like too.I think there are lots of parallels between POV storylines, and funnily the deep you sink into a single POV the easier it becomes to see the links. I guess the parallels are significant, but I'm not sure what it all means

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Great comments on Sandor. Lummel, the snooker analogy was very well done, I got the immage even though I know almost nothing about snooker!

Reading of tragedy and redemption reminded me of the Aristotelian definition of tragedy, where catharsis is the main purpose.

Quoting from Wikipedia:

Catharsis is a sudden emotional breakdown or climax that constitutes overwhelming feelings of great pity, sorrow, laughter, or any extreme change in emotion that results in renewal, restoration, and revitalization.

The term catharsis has also been adopted by modern psychotherapy, particularly Freudian psychoanalysis, to describe the act of expressing, or more accurately, experiencing the deep emotions often associated with events in the individual's past which had originally been repressed or ignored, and had never been adequately addressed or experienced.

I think Sandor's journey has a lot of such elements.

Fleeing from the Blackwater battle to escape the fire is the staring point of this journey. During his trial by combat, he is forced to relive his worst fear and to fight it. Being stripped from his Hound persona he also has to address the issue of who he is and what he has become. The two girls have a hudge part in the second. Sansa's innocence and idealism and his emotions for her point to who he was before and who he might have been. In Arya he watches a replay of his early life after the initial traumatic event. The elder brother in my view is not mainly a priest, but a healer - and not only for physical traumas (see also Brienne's confession).

@Lady Arya's Song

You are right, there are many parallels in Arya's and Tyrion's journeys, but I think they are somehow reversed.

Arya escapes the Red Keep to go home, helped by people who genuinly mean to help her; Tyrion runs away from "home" helped by Varys and Illyrio who want to use him.

They both meet young men of royal blood in hiding, the one is definitely real but he doesn't even know his parentage while the other may be a imposter but he believes he's real.

The BWB and Jon Con's little community don't have much in common, other than being "gentle captors" of a sort.

Jorah and Sandor have a similar role to them, but as persons are like night and day; Jorah is a knight and although he has dishonoured himself in many ways he fools himself, he thinks too highly of himself, finds poor excuses for himself and believes in them; Sandor, not a knight, is honest to cynical.

Later, when they are sold to slavery, Jorah along with Penny, becomes a member of Tyrion's small fellowship and their story has a lot of parallels to Arya, Gentry and Hot Pie in Harrenhal.

But all these similarities lay, I think, on the surface. The impact of those journeys on the respective "heroes" is quite different. Tyrion goes toward redefining his identity while Arya gets on a course to renounce hers.

[Lyanna Stark]

I am sorry if this was not the proper place to post this but I guess I am wondering if in reading this Tyrion chapter and seeing the similarities to Arya and Sandor and the BWB is George giving us further glimpses into the Arya character and the Sandor /Jorah character? Jorah is pretty frightening to look upon and his character is giving me the willies. Tyrion and Penny seem to get past the death issue of Penny's brother with Tyrion looking out for Penny. Is this perhaps a foreshadow of Sandor and Arya in the future. Sandor did express his guilt to Arya over Mycah and Tyrion also expresses his guilt to himself over Penny's situation.

Welcome Lady Arya's Song. :)

The Jorah/Sandor comparison I think is an interesting one for several reasons as they are both pretty ugly, burly men, both in some ways linked or attached to younger, very beautiful women and also seem to figure in symbolism where they capture someone that they think will help them eventually gain favour with the beautiful woman (in Sandor's case it's more roundabout, but he does think he'll gain favour with Robb if he hands him Arya, while Jorah's case is far more straight forward).

We also have the Bear and the Maiden Fair symbolism going on in both arcs, and of course they are in some ways both riffing off the Beauty and the Beast theme in different ways.

There are some fundamental differences between them too though, which are interesting in themselves. One of them being the knight and non-knight, which is what Sandor is all about in this chapter. Despite selling of slaves and betraying Dany to her face, Jorah still very much considers himself a knight, while Sandor spits on knighthood as something false.

(Another interesting parallel is that Sandor replaces Barristan the Bold in the Kingsguard, and Barristan ends up with Dany and Jorah, somewhat to Jorah's consternation!)

So long as he puts on his hair shirt and goes forth to skip with the butterflys and tell small children that god is love I'm happy.Identity is a big theme - very clear in ADWD in which perhaps only Victarion doesn't have an identity crisis (but then he is a bit dim).I was thinking this back to Arya. Is she pursuing this case through the courts as a victim? What justice is she appealing to? A child's sense of fairness?

:lol: I forgive you for the simple reason you put "Victarion" and "hair shirt" in the same paragraph otherwise there would be Randyll Tarly type action.

I do think in a sense Arya has a child's sense of fairness, but she also sees "outside" of the Westerosi class system when she condemns the Hound for murdering Mycah. Mycah did not deserve death.

What is interesting here though is that contrary to what she says in AGOT, she takes ownership of having told Mycah to assist her with her training. In AGOT she doesn't do this, she tells Joffrey to stop, hits him, runs off, fights Sansa etc. but not once does she take ownership and say "I told Mycah to come train with me. I used my rank to make him do it."

Sidenote: Oh yeah and Sandor bases his assumption that it was correct on what he learnt about Sansa's testimony, which is telling no? Somehow he trusts Sansa's say in this, or he claims he did. It's an odd mirror image of Sansa defending Sandor to Arya in AGOT too.

[Mladen]

Oh, dear, I am so torn, where should I start from? :) . The problem with this forums is that it can stretch your mind on so many different things. And for me, if it`s not Sansa, then it`s someone`s essay... And now you guys... Amazing posts, but I learnt not to expect anything less from any of you :)

I like, how the helmet of the hound - his persona in terms of the classic greek theater - gets separated from the men. The gost of the Hound travells on and we meet him again and not for the last time, I'm sure.

This is wonderfully said. This dualism in Sandor has been impressing me for quite some time. And as for the Ghost of the Hound, I would like to see Sandor ending his terror. It would nicely fit into Sandor`s redemption arc on Quiet Isle.

Perhaps Sansa will get to save him, in the regard that she would be able to give him new purpose. :) It would also fit with Lummel's snooker reference (why oh why? :lol: ) in that the Starks are the catalysts, the movers and shakers, and things happen around them, whether they will it or not.

I always believed that his encounters with Stark girls are so deeply connected on some level that he stops pursuing revenge. Sansa has sung him a song, soothed his pain, and in some way, gave birth to his redemption arc. It all started in that room when she denied romantic song and sung him the spiritual one. And as for Arya, he again, makes a detour in his revenge plans. With the risk to sound cheesy, Sansa`s motherly light had cast away Gregor`s shadow over Sandor.

The only thing that bothers me about the redemption discussion, and I'm not disagreeing, mind you, is that redemption cannot be accomplished by an outside force. It comes from within. The path of vengence, as shown in Hamlet, probably the best example of how revenge eats away at an individual's soul, is a hunt for death and destruction. The vengence path leads to death and destruction, not only of the wrong doer (in Martin, The Mountain; in Shakespeare, Claudius), but also of the revenger seeker (in Martin, the Hound; in Shakespeare, Hamlet). As a pathway to violence, it is a personal struggle.

That being said, neither one of the Stark girls has or will have the power to pull Sandor away from his revenge path just as Ophelia could not (nor anyone else in Hamlet for that matter). Hopefully, Sandor pulls away from his need for revenge of his own accord. I hope by extention, Arya will pull away from her need for revenge, too. If she does pull away, it will be a personal struggle, within herself.

Blisscraft, I have read carefully your post this time, and I think I didn`t misunderstand anything :)

The first important question is, who wants revenge - Sandor or Hound? For me, it`s both of them. Sandor`s pain is the motive, but Hound`s excellency in killing is hope that he`ll have his revenge one day. But what will happen if you separate one from another? Certainly, Sandor won`t lose his capability, but will it matter whether he is good or bad in killing? Remember what Elder brother said to Brienne: That man is dead. I have no doubts that Gregor and Sandor will meet before the end, but I have doubts that Sandor will be only led by his revenge.

Now, on the bolded part. I agree with it, but not completely. That Sandor has in him what it takes for redemption, that is certain. But, Sansa was the stone that started avalanche of his emotions, and Arya let him die and therefore opened his path for redemption on QI. I agree as Lummel, Lyanna and the others said - Stark girls are excellent catalysts in Sandor`s story. But as we all know from our chemistry classes, you already need to have a reaction so catalyst would work.

As for Stark girl being able to pull him away from revenge, I`d say that both of the girls redirected Sandor. And sometimes that`s enough. They are not the one who pulled him away, that`s true, they just managed to widen his views, so he could realize there`s something more. But ultimately, as you have said, it all depends on him. And I put my hopes in him.

[jambi]

What is interesting here though is that contrary to what she says in AGOT, she takes ownership of having told Mycah to assist her with her training. In AGOT she doesn't do this, she tells Joffrey to stop, hits him, runs off, fights Sansa etc. but not once does she take ownership and say "I told Mycah to come train with me. I used my rank to make him do it."

The big man shrugged. “I was Joffrey’s sworn shield. The butcher’s boy attacked a prince of the blood.”

“That’s a lie!” Arya squirmed in Harwin’s grip. “It was me. I hit Joffrey and threw Lion’s Paw in the river. Mycah just ran away, like I told him.”

Where is she taking ownership of ordering Mycah to train with her? In this chapter she says she told Mycah to run, but we don't see that in Sansa's POV. And Mycah himself says that she asked him to play, not that she ordered him.

She thought of Mycah again and her eyes filled with tears. Her fault, her fault, her fault. If she had never asked him to play at swords with her …

“I was trying to learn, but …” Her eyes filled with tears. “I asked Mycah to practice with me.” The grief came on her all at once. She turned away, shaking. “I asked him,” she cried. “It was my fault, it was me …”

She never thinks of it as having ordered him to play with her so I don't see why she would think that she used her rank to some how intimidate him into doing as she says.

[Pod The Impaler]

Despite Arya being my favourite character, I haven't had a chance to read this series of Arya threads (they are all so very long). This will be my first time commenting here.

It's going to cover a few sections of this thread..

Arya and Death

The lady gives Arya her dead son's clothes, Arya being clothed by the dead now, also since the sheep came from Thoros and Beric, she ate food given to her indirectly from a dead man.

She is dressed in even finer and more delicate clothes befitting a woman over a small girl that out of necessity are exchanged for boy's clothes (hmm, Arya dressed in death? as her son died). Like the acorns the hint of womanhood is there but must be delayed as the sadness in the last line reinforces.

For Arya, it seems to me, clothes is just that. No embelishment, no beautiful dresses, no emphasizing the beauty. Just something you put on and put off ... She has been traveling for days with Boltons sign on her chest, and when she wears something she feels like shekels, she manages to tear it ... For clothes is just a cover, just a mask. And both girls have learnt that. Sansa is creating her own masks, and Arya is ready to take many of them and cast them away.

If we are looking for symbolism in this moment then ...

Clothing is often referred to as a second skin.

The fact she was wearing the "skin" of someone dead may also be foreshadowing Arya's eventual role as one of the Faceless Men, wearing the faces of other (dead) people.

The Huntsman ...

If anything, the Huntsman, as a symbol and a character in Arya's chapters reveals the emptiness and spiritual wasteland that may await her if she choses to simply follow or pursue the path of vengence. He is a warning to us and to her to reexamine or need to pursue and punish.

ETA: Interesting that the Huntsman is so involved in the same town where Robert Baratheon, noted huntsman himself, had one of his great victories. Also, this association with Robert and the Huntsman reillustrates the utter misery and dissatisfaction Robert had with kingship and ruling. He'd rather be hunting, which proved to be the death of him.

Oddly enough Robert's dissatisfaction with ruling went hand-in-hand with the fact that he did get revenge, and still found no satisfaction in it. He hunted (rather than ruled) to try and take his mind off the emptiness of his life.

Multiple inner battles take place in Arya's worldviews and emotions.

She really, really hates the Hound. She can't find it in her to forgive him, no way. She wants him to suffer. She even agrees to cage him, even though she was clearly shocked by the sight of the caged men. But she wouldn't be there to watch him suffer... It makes it all easy, in contrary to the essence of Ned's teachings. It is important to notice that Ned was teaching the boys on these things, not the girls. Arya has only a vague notion on Ned's views.

Then she sees how bad he's hurt and how much he is suffering, but she won't let compassion "corrode" her hate. She can't kill him though.

"Looking him in the eyes", as Ned said, she can't make herself kill him because she feels sorry for him, even if she doesn't want to.

Sandor urging her to kill him, as a way to end his suffering, can't make her kill him either, because she still hates him.

This is a dead end situation for her, and I think it's almost the same when she leaves him under the willow tree, hoping that some "higher force" will take care of the matter.

None of these "inner battles" is resolved and I believe that she is not in a position to identify and "work" on them at the moment, due to her age and living under constant threat and rage. They have an impact on her in the subconscious level, I think. (This is far from my field so I can't analyse it more, but I 'd love to read Milady's expert view on this issue).

The reason Arya's judgment of the Hound sticks is she judges him by his own standards. She holds no grand opinion of knights or knighthood; she cares little about laws or trial procedures, much less the arcane notions of piety.

Justice to her is a raw and instinctual thing. What matters to her is that a helpless boy was slain by a man who had a choice of whether to harm him for his supposed transgression or not. He chose to simply use his own power and position (as a sword, as a Prince's sword sword) settle the matter.

This is much like Gregor's own fate at the hands of his brother, crimes which were whitewashed in the name of authority. Even as the Hound successfully argues that Gregor's crimes are not his, that knights are liars and thugs who put on airs, he has this one moment of hypocrisy, this lie he tells himself that he was justified by his service to them. He takes cynical pride is spitting on the system, but he seen its evil and yet has served it. That service was broken after what he witnessed being done to Sansa (not to mention the idiocy and cowardice of the Lannister regime), and he deserts. Still, he was never judged for the things he had done, until Arya manages to accuse him in keeping with his own standards, and paint him with the sort of moral cowardice he always resented in others.

A trial by battle is so much ceremony and cynicism, a wager made on the whims of distant gods and the strength of a man's sword equating to justice. The trial failed, but Arya's relentless hate and judgment, succeeded in sending him to "hell" his personal hell of fire and terrible guilt. He almost wants her to execute him.

Later of course, there is a grudging respect that develops between them as a result. Neither will admit it, for all the rage they both feel. He fights with her, and for her, and she for him. In the end, he begs her for "mercy" as much to spare him the physical pain, but also to put an end to his shameful life. She refuses to grant him this fatal "mercy", even when nobody is left who could stop her; she is essentially sentencing him to live with the things he has both done and not done. No easy way out. (Yet, we sense Arya has forgiven The Hound, by taking him off her list which is something she's done for nobody else. Or at the very least, she leaves him to face his harshest judge - himself.)

[Lyanna Stark]

Where is she taking ownership of ordering Mycah to train with her? In this chapter she says she told Mycah to run, but we don't see that in Sansa's POV. And Mycah himself says that she asked him to play, not that she ordered him.

Unless you believe that Mycah was blissfully blind to class and that his butcher father was an original, free spirit, it is very likely that Mycah was allowed to go train with Arya and freed from obligations to work due to the fact that Arya was a Lord's daughter. Arya doesn't have to order him, but she is a noble, if she asked, he'd go. She is of far higher social rank than Mycah. This is regardless of whether he went willingly or not. He probably did, but that still means Arya is the one in the lead and the one who initiated. Even if Mycah was unaware of it (which he is clearly not as he's terrified of Joffrey) his father was definitely not unaware of it, and Mycah was very likely allowed to go by his father, who in turn would not deny a Lord's daughter anything.

In the scene with Joffrey as we see from Sansa's POV, Arya does not tell Joffrey that she asked Mycah to train with her, she just tells Joffrey to stop. Hence she does not take ownership of the decision there. She does later when she points out that she asks him.

She never thinks of it as having ordered him to play with her so I don't see why she would think that she used her rank to some how intimidate him into doing as she says.

See above.

The reason Arya's judgment of the Hound sticks is she judges him by his own standards. She holds no grand opinion of knights or knighthood; she cares little about laws or trial procedures, much less the arcane notions of piety.

Justice to her is a raw and instinctual thing. What matters to her is that a helpless boy was slain by a man who had a choice of whether to harm him for his supposed transgression or not. He chose to simply use his own power and position (as a sword, as a Prince's sword sword) settle the matter.

This is much like Gregor's own fate at the hands of his brother, crimes which were whitewashed in the name of authority. Even as the Hound successfully argues that Gregor's crimes are not his, that knights are liars and thugs who put on airs, he has this one moment of hypocrisy, this lie he tells himself that he was justified by his service to them. He takes cynical pride is spitting on the system, but he seen its evil and yet has served it. That service was broken after what he witnessed being done to Sansa (not to mention the idiocy and cowardice of the Lannister regime), and he deserts. Still, he was never judged for the things he had done, until Arya manages to accuse him in keeping with his own standards, and paint him with the sort of moral cowardice he always resented in others.

This is very well put, I think. :) (Great to see you in this thread too Pod!)

It's also supported with how he admits to more things than killing Mycah. He points out himself the things he feels he is guilty of when it comes to Arya/The Starks. He killed Mycah, didn't do anything to stop Ned's execution and didn't help Sansa when she was beaten. Clearly in his own mind, these were wrongs he did.

I'm certain there are other things he regrets, but when it comes to confessing to "sins" comitted vs the Starks, these are the ones he seems to dwell on and look upon as transgressions.

[conon394]

He killed Mycah

I could be completely not getting this right at this point but I seem to remember Cersi wanted Arya's hand off like Joke/Joffy was some Targaryen. Its not unreasonable that the Hound in the moment did the best thing for Mycah gave him a swift death rather than return him to the Queen. In retrospect he may have regretted letting him not run, but was he alone? Jamie was out hunting as well and the Lanister men far outnumber Ned's. Mycah had no dire wolf to stand watch nor was he a horseman or woodsmen his chances look bad.

---------------------------------------------

Unless you believe that Mycah was blissfully blind to class and that his butcher father was an original, free spirit, it is very likely that Mycah was allowed to go train with Arya and freed from obligations to work due to the fact that Arya was a Lord's daughter. Arya doesn't have to order him, but she is a noble, if she asked, he'd go. She is of far higher social rank than Mycah. This is regardless of whether he went willingly or not. He probably did, but that still means Arya is the one in the lead and the one who initiated. Even if Mycah was unaware of it (which he is clearly not as he's terrified of Joffrey) his father was definitely not unaware of it, and Mycah was very likely allowed to go by his father, who in turn would not deny a Lord's daughter anything.

I would Arya's change of story is one growing up and seeing how the World is...

Winterfell under Ned is kind of the Shire full of hobbits... Sure the class distinction is there but you have to admit that is Arya was allowed to run wild more or less and its doubtful anyone in the household would suffer if Arya got filthy or black and blue from some game she almost certainly started. All in all a just almost idea feudal paradise. Sansa says Arya spends her time with with all kinds of low class people I doubt she even realized the situation. Its only after Mycah's death that she sees and takes on that burden as she recalls the issue that the South is different and she was in fact always one of the most high born of the nobility of the realm and that as you say her requests could hardly be denied.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I could be completely not getting this right at this point but I seem to remember Cersi wanted Arya's hand off like Joke/Joffy was some Targaryen. Its not unreasonable that the Hound in the moment did the best thing for Mycah gave him a swift death rather than return him to the Queen. In retrospect he may have regretted letting him not run, but was he alone? Jamie was out hunting as well and the Lanister men far outnumber Ned's. Mycah had no dire wolf to stand watch nor was he a horseman or woodsmen his chances look bad.

No, it was not an act of "mercy". Death is too final. I suppose Mycah might have prefered to lose a hand instead of his life. Also, there is a decent possibility that Sansa, realizing that an innocent boy would be cruelly punished for something he never did, would have decided to tell the true story. The Hound killed him and made fun about it. It was in accordance with his constructed worldview that the weak should die and make place for the strong. If he had done it out of a distorted sense of pity, he would have stated so.

What is interesting here though is that contrary to what she says in AGOT, she takes ownership of having told Mycah to assist her with her training. In AGOT she doesn't do this, she tells Joffrey to stop, hits him, runs off, fights Sansa etc. but not once does she take ownership and say "I told Mycah to come train with me. I used my rank to make him do it."

Actually, she doesn't. All that she says is:

The big man shrugged. "I was Joffrey's sworn shield. The butcher's boy attacked a prince of the blood."

"That's a lie!" Arya squirmed in Harwin's grip. "It was me. I hit Joffrey and threw Lion's Paw in the river. Mycah just ran away, like I told him."

She takes responsibility of hitting Joffrey and for telling Mycah to run away, not for asking him to play with her. It's alien to her mindset that she could use her rank to make people play with her and be her friends (for children, play companions = friends). She doesn't take ownership because it doesn't cross her mind that it can be so. She had to be told that Mycah's death was her fault - and then Ned reassured her that it wasn't.

At this point, she has become more aware of rank difference, but still she doesn't consider it a factor when it comes to her friends. When she told Gendry "Why did you say that? you are not my brother", it never crossed her mind that Gendry could consider it a derogatory comment for his low birth. Only after she understands that she hurt him.

Even as the Hound successfully argues that Gregor's crimes are not his, that knights are liars and thugs who put on airs, he has this one moment of hypocrisy, this lie he tells himself that he was justified by his service to them.

Is he really lying to himself at this point? I always thought that his line "I heard it from the royal lips. It's not my place to question princes." was more of a mockery to their "King's justice", to the system that allows him (and people like him and them, as well) to commit such actions unpunished.

I think it's only later, when he's gone to his personal firy hell, when he speeks out all the ways he has wronged her, in order to make her kill him, that he realizes how guilty he really feels.

[Ice Turtle]

She takes responsibility of hitting Joffrey and for telling Mycah to run away, not for asking him to play with her. It's alien to her mindset that she could use her rank to make people play with her and be her friends (for children, play companions = friends). She doesn't take ownership because it doesn't cross her mind that it can be so. She had to be told that Mycah's death was her fault - and then Ned reassured her that it wasn't.

At this point, she has become more aware of rank difference, but still she doesn't consider it a factor when it comes to her friends. When she told Gendry "Why did you say that? you are not my brother", it never crossed her mind that Gendry could consider it a derogatory comment for his low birth. Only after she understands that she hurt him.

Wrong in both points.

“I asked Mycah to practice with me.” The grief came on her all at once. She turned away, shaking. “I asked him,” she cried. “It was my fault, it was me …” AGoT Arya speaking with Ned

Where is there any textual evidence that "it doesn't cross her mind that it can be so. She had to be told that Mycah's death was her fault", who according to you is that person who told her this and when?

Arya is asking Gendry why he lied, why he told he is her brother when he isn't. It have nothing to do with social status, she would ask the same question if it was Willas Tyrell or Aegon the Dragon, because neither is her brother. It's only Gendry's paranoia that makes it more that it was, he is the one who is reacting wrongly.

I agree that it never crossed her mind that Gendry would consider it derogatory, why should it? He is acting absolutely irrationally.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Wrong in both points.

“I asked Mycah to practice with me.” The grief came on her all at once. She turned away, shaking. “I asked him,” she cried. “It was my fault, it was me …” AGoT Arya speaking with Ned

Where is there any textual evidence that "it doesn't cross her mind that it can be so. She had to be told that Mycah's death was her fault", who according to you is that person who told her this and when?

Textual evidence in AGOT Arya II, just before speaking with Ned

She went to the window seat and sat there, sniffling, hating them all, and herself most of all. It was all her fault, everything bad that had happened. Sansa said so, and Jeyne too.

She was told by her sister and Jayne. The rest is my thoughts about it, what I make of her way of thinking based on the text.

Arya is asking Gendry why he lied, why he told he is her brother when he isn't. It have nothing to do with social status, she would ask the same question if it was Willas Tyrell or Aegon the Dragon, because neither is her brother. It's only Gendry's paranoia that makes it more that it was, he is the one who is reacting wrongly.

I agree that it never crossed her mind that Gendry would consider it derogatory, why should it? He is acting absolutely irrationally.

Well, I don't think he's paranoid, he has developped a feeling of inferiority and such feelings make people think irrationally sometimes. If she was older and more experienced and if she had a better understanding of what social status means to other people, she might have sensed that Gendry could misunderstand her question. But I agree, Gendry is the one who's reacting wrongly.

[Ice Turtle]

She was told by her sister and Jayne. The rest is my thoughts about it, what I make of her way of thinking based on the text.

I doubt Sansa and Jeyne mentioned Arya asking Mycah to play with her, that was minor point compared to her attacking Joffrey and Lady being killed.

Are you telling that Arya would feel no guilt and go on obvious if Sansa (who she hates at the moment) didn't talk to her?

If she was older and more experienced and if she had a better understanding of what social status means to other people, she might have sensed that Gendry could misunderstand her question.

No, that question was simple, there was clearly no undertone, she would need a crystal ball to see Gendry's reaction.