Becoming No One: Rereading Arya III

[Blisscraft]

"One just man can become an army" you know it has to be Beric's theme song!

I am unfamiliar with the TV show, but I loved the clip. Indeed, this could be Beric's theme.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

A few things...

Religon

Thoros attitude of respecting other gods while following R'hollor is not a common thing. Even some of the Brotherhood laugh at the gods of the seven like Lem's "my god can beat up your god" talk. Not only does Thoros respect other the gods of others he sees any man in service to the gods as his "brother" and he is not as devote as other red priests that we've seen.

Thoros says that The Lord of Light let him keep his life, but didn't declare him Baelor the Blessed. Baelor was a well known religious figure of the seven. Not the red god.

Magic/Death

Between the smoke and the morning mists, the air was a haze of blowing black and white

The fires in the second story of the septry has caused this. A fire already caused her to meet another man similar to Thoros, a man that could do magic and swore to all the gods imaginable, Jaqen H'ghar.

The black crows feasting on dead white flesh. Black and white reference with death.

Arya looks at Thoros with all his wounds. Thoros senses her fear and asks her about it, then tells Lem to go take a turn at the watch.

Even brave men blind themselves when they are afraid to see.

Arya and her association with death gets a bit more complicated here as she finds out she's speaking to someone that has died six times. Strangely Beric has no problem telling Arya the truth. Can he sense that she doesn't fear it as much as the others?

Like Yoren and Jaqen H'ghar before had done. Beric a dead man makes a promise to Arya on his honor as a knight to return her to her mother's arms.

Arya can do anything she puts her mind to

Many many times throughout all her chapters Arya makes claims of what she could do if she wanted to. Here we see two more and her promising what she will do.

I could be a blacksmith if I wanted to

I could be a knight if I wanted to

I will kill you next time, and your brother too.

Gendry/Arya/Knighthood/Smith

1. Gendry was content in KL until Mott and an unknown lord shipped him off

2. Gendry was content it seemed in going to the wall to join the Night's Watch.

3. Gendry was content in Harrenhall, until weasel soup...

4. Gendry explored the forge at Acorn Hill to see if it was useable.

Clearly since leaving KL Gendry has been looking for a place to hang his hammer. He protected Arya's identity, didn't give her up when he got captured by the Mountain, left Harrenhall willingly with great risk to himself. I don't blame him for taking this opportunity. I don't blame Arya for not understanding Gendry's position either. She's still young and thinks the world of her family and rightfully so, Ned treated his men well, better than any other lord we've seen thus far in the books I can think of.

Arya always can fall back on her true identity even if she's about to be killed by the Bloody Mummers after escaping Harrenhall. Gendry doesn't have that card to play. His speech in Harrenhall about the "sword is a sword and a fire burns your hand no matter what lord owns the forge". Arya tries to offer him the same thing that he can get anywhere that might not necessarily be better, at that he mocks her. We know Ned Stark treated his men well, even had a different one sit with him every night, included in the rotation was their smith Mikken, but Gendry doesn't know this about Ned, they only met once for a short time when all he did was ask him questions, the same ones he'd just been asked by the previous hand.

Gendry gives them his "reasoning" but clearly there's evidence of something else behind it. As people a few posts back have noted Gendry has "a chip on his shoulder" about high born elites that think themselves better than everyone. Beric knighting him gives him a higher social standing, even if some would look at him as a "stupid outlaw knight".

Anguy tells the tale of how Sandor got all the gold, and while Anguy spent it all on whores, Sandor has most of his gold left, hinting at a more prudent personality perhaps?

Sandor spent most his gold...

The Hound won 40,000 gold dragons in the Hand's tournament and was given a note good for ~ 10,000 which means he spent almost 30,000 dragons.

Anguy won 10,000 dragons and spent it all so the Hound spent three times as much gold as Anguy did so not so sure about either of them really being "prudent" with their large sum of gold. The Hound did manage to not spend it all... yet.

He does paint an interesting picture, Sandor Clegane. He comes across as a rude drunkard with issues in many of Sansa’s chapters, but we have also seen that he is extremely disciplined, focused, brave, a morning person (Tyrion and Eddard’s chapters in AGOT support this) and by no means stupid judging by his capacity to read people and as we’ll see in upcoming Arya chapters, he has no problem with deception when needed. He also has his own code of honour despite hating knights, which Thoros and Beric acknowledge.

All in all, we have been given a lot of information creating a very complex character for a non POV.

I like reading Mlady's essay on the clinical psychological evaluation of the Hound occasionally. Clearly it's very impressive how much thought goes into even non POV characters. I don't think it's an accident that the Hound has post traumatic stress disorder from his burns as a childhood and how his actions and motivations can be evaluated so well to fall into a pattern and make sense so well.

Arya/Hound

Arya threatens to kill him. The Hound only asks if Arya knows what dogs do to wolves?

[Pod The Impaler]

Arya VII - ASOS

Chapter summary:

The chapter starts with a man dying. It continues with a small battle in which the BWB attacks a septry where the Bloody Mummers have set up camp. Both BWB and mummers are killed in the fighting, but the BWB prevail easily. Arya are observing with Gendry and a few others from a ridge. She notes that even though she loves swordfighting, shooting a bow is a useful skill to have.

While Arya resents not being able to fight alongside the BWB, she has also learnt something about battles and how they work: "This was battle, and in battle you had to obey."

A pretty awful knowledge for a child to have, but still a sign of that Arya is considering her actions more carefully and not just rushing ahead. Combined with her thoughts on bows and arrows, it creates a rather utilitarian feel, that Arya now knows that rushing headlong in and waving a sword is pointless, and that a tactical approach is better.

I don't know how awful it is for Arya to see battle in that manner. It seems like a very mature and realist attitude - to a degree that is way beyond her years. "Utilitarian" you have said, but "pragmatic" and "adaptive" might be additional ways to describe it. It is more evidence for me that Arya is a natural warrior. For all her rage, she has excellent foresight and discipline when battle actually happens, she understands the larger rationale behind the chain of command and why it is important. So where does it come from ? I would wager this speaks volumes about the influence that her father Eddard Stark had on her.

Of course, we got to see only a little of how the Stark children learned and grew in their household. Robb was taught to wage war rule, since being the eldest and a son, it was expected of him. Jon Snow in his own right clearly absorbed much of this as well. Both Robb and Jon prove to be courageous, able, and forceful leaders. What about Bran? Clearly he was being trained along the same lines - after all he's seven years old and his father takes him to see an execution. Then he explains to his little boy about courage, and about personal responsibility. Bran does not flinch or get frightened, and Eddard is proud of that. Then Eddard indicates to Catelyn that Rickon needs to learn to face his fears and start his own path to manhood - at the age of three. That sums up the "parenting" moments we see for any of the boys. We never see, but can only imagine Eddard gathering his boys around, telling them stories of the Starks and the battles they have been in. This would include his own lessons learned from battles he was involved in. His lessons would always be driving home the importance of courage and honour, but also discipline and realism. That's the essence of being a warrior, a northman, a Stark.

Well, what of Arya then? I don't know that Eddard took Sansa and Arya along to watch him behead lawbreakers - it seems very unlikely considering the traditional hopes he had for them. And yet, I can see Arya wanting to go along on hunts and beheadings, asking to learn the sword and bow well before Needle and Syrio, and I picture her sitting by the same fire in Winterfell as Robb, and Jon, and Bran, absorbing the whole subject of warfare. (Sansa was probably more interested in the social aspects of it and ignored the military side.) We already know Arya has unusual heroes, women such as Nymeria, and likely Visenya and Daena the Defiant.

My point is, Arya probably learned a good deal about the nature of warfare just by being around her brothers as her father taught them. This means it predates her whole journey from King's Landing to this point in the story, and is not the result of trauma as much as teaching.

Religious tolerance and blending of religions:

It is well known in the Riverlands that Thoros, Beric and the BWB are followers of Rh’llor, yet Thoros still calls the monk from the sept “brother” and there seems to be mutual respect between almost all followers of the Seven and the followers of the Red God. We also have Beric knighting Gendry, which is normally something done in the light of the Seven. Further, we also have the BWB interacting with the Ghost of High Heart, which is clearly someone aligned with the old Gods and Beric in the hollow hill sits a weirwood “throne”.

Are we so used to religions in the real world being opposites and fighting each other that the “blending” of religions and religious imagery in ASOIAF feels alien? Do the religions in ASOIAF necessarily need to be opposites, or can they be expressions of different facets of spirituality? There seems to be interveawing of both religious imagery and believers, especially in the Riverlands and at the Wall, where all three religions are represented.

In fact, looking at the Riverlands in particular, things and people seem to often be aligned with more than one religion.

Perhaps this is just a funtion of Thoros of Myr's own methods, rather than the religion itself. Compare him with the other two red priests we know - Melisandre and Moquorro. Of these, Mel is just about the most fanatical about her own religion, and she's most likely to seek the conversion or destruction of infidels. Moquorro is absolutely resolute in his belief in the power of R'Hillor, but seems content to let his god do all the wrathful smiting without much human intercession. The fact he works with Victarion at all is bizarre. Thoros is very down-to-earth compared to those two. If he converts others, it is by his "good works", and he is willing to respect others' beliefs, even if he disagrees with them; conversion is not a price he puts on helping them.

Arya’s sense of abandonment:

Further, Arya doubts that Robb and her mother want her back. She thinks Robb is the more likely, and that her mother would maybe not have her, since she’s about as removed from ladylike behaviour as she could be. This is not the first time we have Arya considering that her mother does not want her back since Arya does not conform to how Catelyn had wished her to grow up, which makes Cat’s sacrifice for Arya and Sansa even more sad. It also enhances that there is a connection between Cat and Arya, and that Arya wishes for her mother’s love.

Identity, rebirth and the high cost of sacrifice:

Beric is probably in a worse state than Frodo is, but the same destruction of who they are and their memories has taken place. The only things left are their purpose and the fire, but what are you fighting for when you cannot even remember what that feels like, and who you are?

Arya is on a somewhat similar path, in that she is destroying who she is, gradually. But hopefully she can find a path back to her family, to Winterfell, to her family and those she loves so that she will have something to live for that isn’t an emptiness filled with fire and vague, shadowy memories of what was. There was no going back for Beric, and not really for Frodo either, but there may yet be a way back for Arya.

Of course, Arya's feeling homesick and missing her mother.

She's still never been able to shake the idea that she was the "bad" girl of her family as opposed to Sansa's "good" girl. Arya remembers being told she was bad when she threw mashed neeps at her sister or backtalked the septa, etc. - combative, willful, messy, and unladylike. Since she left escaped from the coup and left King's Landing, with all the rough things she has done and the people she has killed, how much more into the "bad" does this push her? So far gone her mother will reject her utterly? Arya's still a child though, so this is the basis of the idea that her mother might not want her. Arya is proud of much of it, of not acting a little girl anymore (in her own opinion), but the idea of being treated by her mother as some unwanted burden or lost cause still frightens and saddens her. Her father is dead, and that means if her mother was out of her life she'd truly have nobody left to guide her or protect her, or even comfort her when she's hurting. Is this fear plausible?

Well, dare I say it, to Arya it is - she already has an example of her mother doing this to someone in the family: Jon Snow. Arya and Jon cared for each other, and the feelings between Jon and Robb, and Jon and Bran were arm as well. However, Catelyn had nothing for Jon but cold scorn, and Sansa was apparently emulating her mother's treatment of Jon. Arya's not old enough to really understand why Jon Snow's presence make Catelyn feel resentful. The family dynamic Arya is seeing is that someone she cares about is being ostracized, for being bad, for not fitting in. So what would her mother, who wants her to be gentle and pretty and ladylike, do if she found out her little girl was wandering the Riverlands, eating bugs, consorting with outlaws, seeking vengeance, and killing people ? It's a silly fear, really - but the thing a child fears, even one who has been surrounded by death and horror.

And when Catelyn dies (along with Robb), it crushes Arya horribly, because despite these fears, her mother repesented the last protective and comforting person in the world for her. First her father, then her mother. Except for Jon (who's at the Wall forever), and Sansa (whom she half blames for everything that's happenned), she is now totally alone in a hostile world, with nobody left who would aid her survival.

The warped irony here is that as Lady Stoneheart, her "good" mother is now consorting with outlaws, seeking vengeance, and killing people.

[Lummel]

On the religion topic I noticed the Mummer's tree again, which led me to Adam of Bremen and the habits of the early (or spring) Swedes

There is a festival at Uppsala every nine years […] The sacrifice is as follows; of every kind of male creature, nine victims are offered. By the blood of these creatures it is the custom to appease the gods. Their bodies, moreover, are hanged in a grove which is adjacent to the temple. This grove is so sacred to the people that the separate trees in it are believed to be holy because of the death or putrefaction of the sacrificial victims. There even dogs and horses hang beside human beings.

and that then reminded me of Davos IV ADWD "It's said they hung their entrails in the branches of the heart tree, as an offering to the gods. The old gods, not these new ones from the south" p385 in the hardback. But maybe this is too much weight to put on those branches. It could just be a pun on natural justice.

However I noticed that Beric's words when he dubs Gendry a knight are different from those used in the Hedge Knight (and if you haven't read the Hedge Knight - why not?). Ser lyonel Baratheon specifically invokes the Seven "In the name of the Warrior I charge you to be brave...In the name of the Father I charge you to be just...In the name of the Mother I charge you to defend the young and innocent..." By contrast Gendry swears an oath more akin to an oath of fealty and service. If we were discussing chivalry and service it would be worth comparing Gendry's to Brienne's oath, but we're not so I won't drag us further off topic :) but it does harken back to Lyanna's religious mish mash idea.

Erm...The trials, just as with Sandor the Mummer's are tried for their pack allegiance rather than for their individual crimes. This read I noticed the volantine sellswords, given they are tattooed they must be runaway slaves, which adds to the pathetic note we get from the hanging of the Myrish crossbowman. For me there is a definite sense of 'we were only following orders' about the scene. Well that one didn't work at Nuremberg and it doesn't wash here either. But I liked Thoros' awareness of the question of what happens to the beast who loses its pack.

Beric is I think a good warning to those overly excited about the possibility of a Jon Snow restored to life by magic. Resurrection is no get out of jail free card. It has it's own cost. Fire consumes and consumes Beric's human memories even if his humanity is still intact. Horrifically he seems more humane than some of his men. The similarity with Melisandre is striking, no eating, just a bit to drink now and then.

Arya's focus in the chapter is on death. The POV opens with a death, she wishes people were dead, she wants to take part in killing, she thinks wistfully on those happy Harrenhall days when she could kill with a whisper - she's already forgotten the burden of having only three deaths and the desire to make them count. By contrast their is a focus in the chapter on survival and regeneration. The Septry will be rebuilt, the Huntsman will buy sheep and grain in the south and bring them back, Beric brought back is an almost awful (or awesome if your that way inclined) talisman of the restorative force of life.

Like Pod in the previous post I also thought in relation to Arya's "This was a battle, and in battle you had to obey" that this might actually be part of her Stark heritage. She's the daughter of a great lord, war stories, war brought her parents together after all, surely must have been part of her upbringing. Martial training we know from Jon II AGOT was something that took place in the yard and was something that Arya watched at least occasionally. It seems to me that Arya would have been aware and taken in as with her mother's milk the awareness of war requiring discipline and obedience and this being something that lives depended on. Growing up Stark isn't the cuddly option.

By contrast the violence she has seen so far in the Riverlands up to this point has been pretty scrappy from her POV. The discipline of the BWB's attack is notable.

I am unfamiliar with the TV show, but I loved the clip. Indeed, this could be Beric's theme.

No? It was after school TV when I was growing up. Bandits fighting for justice against corrupt and wicked governors, sword fights in every episode, dubious dubbing. Great stuff.

[Ragnorak]

<snip>

No? It was after school TV when I was growing up. Bandits fighting for justice against corrupt and wicked governors, sword fights in every episode, dubious dubbing. Great stuff.

While I never saw that show it is very Robin Hood-like. The current take on Robin Hood is most often the stealing from the rich part but it is really about opposition to the government like your shows villains the "wicked governors." Robin Hood's enemy as the Sheriff of Nottiingham and what he stole was the proceeds from unfair taxes. The same is true of the BWB here. The "rich" they are fighting and stealing from are those who claim to have and are fighting over the right to be the sovereign governing entity over these people. The BWB even claim to be "king's men" which is a statement about government not wealth. Their rebellion is rooted in the failure of this civilized society to properly dispense justice and respect private property-- most importantly the fruits of their labor that would allow these people to survive the winter.

[Ragnorak]

<snip>

No? It was after school TV when I was growing up. Bandits fighting for justice against corrupt and wicked governors, sword fights in every episode, dubious dubbing. Great stuff.

While I never saw that show it is very Robin Hood-like. The current take on Robin Hood is most often the stealing from the rich part but it is really about opposition to the government like your shows villains the "wicked governors." Robin Hood's enemy as the Sheriff of Nottiingham and what he stole was the proceeds from unfair taxes. The same is true of the BWB here. The "rich" they are fighting and stealing from are those who claim to have and are fighting over the right to be the sovereign governing entity over these people. The BWB even claim to be "king's men" which is a statement about government not wealth. Their rebellion is rooted in the failure of this civilized society to properly dispense justice and respect private property-- most importantly the fruits of their labor that would allow these people to survive the winter.

ETA

One of the Bloody Mummers claims to be a soldier as his defense. While I have issues with the justice dispensed by the BWB there is a certain distinction that has been traditionally made in times of war (not so much in the last 10 or 20 years but very much so throughout the rest of history.) General Patton took a POW camp in WWII. POWs at the time were entitled to eat the same quality and quantity of food as their captors. Patton discovered well fed German officers and 85 pound POWs. His reaction was to have every German officer lined up and shot (only officers and not enlisted men iirc.) The 85 pound prisoners and well fed officers were all the proof required under war time conditions and this was considered proper dispensation of justice at the time despite the considerably truncated due process.

I'm not sure that the current incarnation of the BWB is entirely without justice even if it is imperfect. The dead brothers and their mere presence in the septry doesn't exactly require much more proof especially after the eight survivors tell their tale. We do see how the Huntsman took it upon himself to deny merciful deaths and that others wanted to kill Sandor despite the trial. What rules and restraints there are come from Beric and we see how justice is a matter of obedience to Beric rather than a cause felt in the majority of their hearts. In general this is the internal battle Arya must wage and which side wins is probably still unclear as of the end of Dance.

[Lummel]

While I never saw that show it is very Robin Hood-like. The current take on Robin Hood is most often the stealing from the rich part but it is really about opposition to the government like your shows villains the "wicked governors." Robin Hood's enemy as the Sheriff of Nottiingham and what he stole was the proceeds from unfair taxes. The same is true of the BWB here. The "rich" they are fighting and stealing from are those who claim to have and are fighting over the right to be the sovereign governing entity over these people. The BWB even claim to be "king's men" which is a statement about government not wealth. Their rebellion is rooted in the failure of this civilized society to properly dispense justice and respect private property-- most importantly the fruits of their labor that would allow these people to survive the winter.

Yes it was a Japanese version of the Chinese classic The Outlaws of the Marsh (although the Japanese film crew seem to have used the flank of a volcano as a stand in for the marsh...but that's the price of adaptations I suppose :laugh:). Eventually the Outlaws fight Imperial soldiers not just local guys. The outlaws rule themselves and form a counter just society that is outside the law of the 'official' but thoroughly unjust Song Dynasty government.

I agree with what you say there Ragnorak, essentially the BWB are creating an alternative society, a counter culture, actually a welfare state. Rather than taking material goods from the smallfolks, like the Lions and the Wolves, they are redistributing wealth in order to ensure material survival for the people of the Riverlands. Unfortunately they are outlaws and they are fated to dance at the end of a noose eventually. So much for justice in Westeros.

[Ragnorak]

It is funny that you mention redistribution because I had Frederic Bastiat in mind and government as an institution of plunder which was actually his take on redistribution. In this particular case their primary efforts are directed at "the government" and not the rich. Lady Smallwood is an ally not a target of plunder. Wealth is not the issue so much as survival. There are elements of the pack surviving winter that unite them. At least as long as Beric leads them they seem to be trying to enforce the king's justice as their ideal even if they pragmatically fall short of that ideal. Later this will descend into raw vengeance.

[The Sleeper]

It is quite easy to see why Gendry, a teenager who has been treated pretty much like a piece of furniture throughout most of his life, would find the idea of serving a cause, of finding purpose in his life so appealing, despite the fact that he had the prospect of a more comfortable and safer life. I doubt however that he trully realizes the consequences. His response to Lem, after the latter states their probable untimely ends, souds like a challenge: If you can do it, so can I.

Arya is not at that stage of her development and fails to understand all of this. All she sees is her friend abandoning her. And rather than show any vulnerability, she heaps scorn on him.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Thought inspiring analysis and comments, everyone!

Although this is not a very dense chapter, it covers so many points of discussion. A few observations:

On knights and honor

The two diametrical opposite opinions are expressed here again by Berric and Sandor. It is interesting that Sandor, later, uses exactly the same sentence “On my honor as a knight” as a means of deceit.

Berric fails to keep his promise, but I think this doesn’t prove that Sandor’s view is right. (I agree with just an Other that this is one of the reasons Berric gave his "life" to Cat.)

There is a parallel with Sansa and Littlefinger’s opposite opinions on the truth of songs. Ygritte knows better, I think: a bard's truth is different than yours or mine.

Winter is coming (or, the seasons of BWB)

Summer was ending when Berric and his band were send to bring the Mountain to justice. Justice, not revenge, as Ned explicitly stated. Ned passed this duty to Berric as he was wounded. They were operating on his orders and bearing the king’s banner. Soon after, both Ned and Robert were killed and peace died as well.

During autumn, the political scene in Westeros is dominated by the War of the five Kings. The outcome is still uncertain. In times of war, justice becomes harsher and it’s difficult to set the barrier that distinguishes it from revenge. The BWB are both knights and outlaws. Berric is both dead and alive.

The Red Wedding marks the end of a season. It’s the end of autumn and the end of this kind of fighting a war. The war “ends” with the BWB in the defeated side and Berric’s purpose is finished. His war is over, he can go now. But this is not peace either, only a different kind of war. Harsher and unforgiving, just as the winter that’s ante portas. Berric passes his life and his authority to Cat who will be as harsh as the wastelands that Riverlands has become.

I see a cycle pattern here, with a Stark being in command again but showing the Winter face this time.

Unfinished business

As the Lord of Light is not yet done with Joffrey's Hound, it would also seem that Cat is brought back to life because she’s left pending things to do. As I read, I keep feeling that Arya is one of them.

Pod the Impaler presented nicely Arya’s feelings about her mother. What were the last words Cat said to her, I wonder? When the girls left Winterfell, Cat was fully dedicated to Bran’s side, sleepless. It all happened so suddenly that I don’t think they had the opportunity for a proper farewell and a mother – daughter talk. Maybe their last serious conversation was a scolding…

Cat deserves to see her girl again and tell her how proud she is of her. Arya deserves to know how much her mother loves her. I need to see them meet each other one more time, more than any other reunion…

*edited for clarification

[Daphne23]

I don't know how awful it is for Arya to see battle in that manner. It seems like a very mature and realist attitude - to a degree that is way beyond her years. "Utilitarian" you have said, but "pragmatic" and "adaptive" might be additional ways to describe it. It is more evidence for me that Arya is a natural warrior. For all her rage, she has excellent foresight and discipline when battle actually happens, she understands the larger rationale behind the chain of command and why it is important. So where does it come from ? I would wager this speaks volumes about the influence that her father Eddard Stark had on her... My point is, Arya probably learned a good deal about the nature of warfare just by being around her brothers as her father taught them. This means it predates her whole journey from King's Landing to this point in the story, and is not the result of trauma as much as teaching.

When re-reading this chapter before reading everyone else's (excellent and thorough!) analysis, I must say this quote stood out to me as singularly disturbing, and I can't quite explain why. I think it's something to do with the fact that Arya, who is a wild card in every other area of her life, has so thoroughly internalised the idea that 'in battle you have to obey'. I'm not arguing with the principle of obedience in battle - only that it seems, once again, to demonstrate the thoroughly dark turn that Arya's development has taken. This does demonstrate a kind of maturation, but it is lopsided; Arya has the capability to think strategically, like Robb and Jon, but she isn't so much calling upon training as a commander here as training as cannon fodder. Edmure's mistake earlier in the book shows that she is right, but I still find it worrying that this is the one rule that Arya will follow without question.

[The Sleeper]

At least as long as Beric leads them they seem to be trying to enforce the king's justice as their ideal even if they pragmatically fall short of that ideal. Later this will descend into raw vengeance.

This is the prevalent attitude. Due to our knowledge of Cat's horrific fate, Thoros' speech and Brienne's trial, which we've witnessed through the accused's eyes it certainly makes that impression, but does an impartial examination of the facts yield the same result? Somehow it doesn't seem that way.

The BwB under Stoneheart takes orphans at the inn, even if the use it also as a trap. They are still trying to protect non combatants. Both Merret Frey and Brienne receive a trial. In Merret's case his complicity was witnessed and in Brienne's case actual evidence were produced and considered. Moreover Brienne is given a chance to prove her loyalty.

Also many of the men hanged by the BwB under Stoneheart were undeniably dangerous and had commited atrocities.

The fact that the judge had a personal stake in these trials, makes them far from ideal, but the judgements were neither unjustified nor frivolous and sitll places the proceedings head and shoulders above the travesties of jusitce we usually see in the courts of the nobles in Westeros.

And I don't disagree in principle with the fact that they have gone over the line to vengeance. So where is that line and when did they cross it? For one their circumstances have changed. During Dondarion's time the BwB were operating amidst factions who had bigger things to worry about. Now that the war is over, or at least in remission, everyone is hunting for them specifically. We see them later in AFFC having trouble keeping themselves fed. In the attack against the Bloody Mummers several characters were named just to be killed. Later life expectancy for a member of the BwB is getting shorter and shorter.

Also, for all their troubles what have they accomplished? The riverlands are ravaged, famine is imminent and the ones that did the ravaging won. All they have managed is to decorate more trees with corpses and see their friends die. The fuitility of it all must have taken its toll. So in the end the difference between a band of brothers fighting for justice and a gang of cutthroats might be just a little time.

[Mladen]

Religious tolerance and blending of religions:

It is well known in the Riverlands that Thoros, Beric and the BWB are followers of Rh’llor, yet Thoros still calls the monk from the sept “brother” and there seems to be mutual respect between almost all followers of the Seven and the followers of the Red God. We also have Beric knighting Gendry, which is normally something done in the light of the Seven. Further, we also have the BWB interacting with the Ghost of High Heart, which is clearly someone aligned with the old Gods and Beric in the hollow hill sits a weirwood “throne”.

Are we so used to religions in the real world being opposites and fighting each other that the “blending” of religions and religious imagery in ASOIAF feels alien? Do the religions in ASOIAF necessarily need to be opposites, or can they be expressions of different facets of spirituality? There seems to be interveawing of both religious imagery and believers, especially in the Riverlands and at the Wall, where all three religions are represented.

In fact, looking at the Riverlands in particular, things and people seem to often be aligned with more than one religion.

Many, many apologies for being slow with this chapter! I can't even blame a hospital visit since Jon Snow has yet to manifest. On the upside I had to look for and eventually found one of my English editions of LOTR. I own four in total, I think, but some are in the basement. :)

First I want to congratulate you Lyanna on this beautifully written analysis. It was indeed pleasure to read it, and as al the others, I genuinly missed your opinions.

As for relligious tolerance, I have to say I am always amazed how poor peasents are tolerable than Highlords, Highseptons or Kings. It works in our world too. What farmer of medieval times would care about crussades and holly wars? It was the Kings, clerigy and highlords who create the strife. I have just watched a great movie about relligious tolerance during war in ex-Yugoslavia and this Lyanna`s paragraph made me thinking about it. But in Westeros peasents and ordinary folks have nothing to do ith great matters. Who ask them anything when Highlords and Kings play their Game of thrones? And that`s precisely what bonds them. Lions or wolves, Faith or Rhillor, it doesnt make difference. They are all hurt by futile war they know nothing about.

And Lyanna, I wanted also you to know that I`ll be thinking about you and sending you a positive energy.

[Lyanna Stark]

On knights and honor

The two diametrical opposite opinions are expressed here again by Berric and Sandor. It is interesting that Sandor, later, uses exactly the same sentence “On my honor as a knight” as a means of deceit.

Berric fails to keep his promise, but I think this doesn’t prove that Sandor’s view is right. (I agree with just an Other that this is one of the reasons Berric gave his "life" to Cat.)

There is a parallel with Sansa and Littlefinger’s opposite opinions on the truth of songs. Ygritte knows better, I think: a bard's truth is different than yours or mine.

This is a really good point, I think. There can be truth in songs, just like in myths and legends, you just need to see the songs for what they are and perhaps not take them for the literal truth, but an interpretation? It doesn't need to be either absolutely true or absolutely false, but there can be something in them all the same. Beric makes some good points, but so does Sandor with regards to knighthood. None of them has the absolute 100% truth though.

On a vaguely similar theme, I had forgotten how many mentions of songs there were in Arya's chapter.

EDIT: Might be time to wish me luck too, 12 min between contractions and these ones feel more like the real deal. :) (Although with my luck it will be another 2 weeks of stop starting at least!)

[Blisscraft]

Lyanna - love the parallel you draw with TLoTR and Frodo's slow and painful change, within and without, Sam as the witness.

One of the things that really stands out in this series, ASoIaF, is the burden of the promises we make and the effort it takes to keep them. For Frodo, his promise is to bear the ring. The ring becomes a symbol of his promise to bear it. It is very like a wedding ring, a symbol to the world of the promise he makes.

In this chapter, the kiss becomes the symbol of the promise Beric swore. This, like a ring, is also part of the marriage ceremony. It occurs at its conclusion. The bride and groom kiss. An outward symbol of the mystical union of opposites. Beric and Thoros and their "kiss" represent the union between life and death. It becomes an outward manifestation of the promise to perform duties. It becomes a metaphor for healing, even though it's too late to heal Ned, the man to whom Beric swore his promise to protect the riverlands. It's also, like Frodo's ring, and increasing burden upon Beric body and soul. Six times he has kissed Thoros; as we know, the seventh will be his last kiss.

Promises unkept become betrayals. Therefore, the kiss, has a negative aspect. The best example of this negative aspect is Judas' kiss. It is seen as the symbol of his betrayal of Christ. The negative aspect is crudely expressed in vernacular as, "kiss off" or "kiss my ass." There are more, but you get the idea.

With Arya, all of the promises to her have been broken. Consequently, she feels abandoned. This is, too, is part of the burden to keep promises. Sometimes people die and can't keep their promises, like Ned and Yoren. Sometimes people chose another and break their promises, like Gendry and Hot Pie. One of the things that is part of Arya's arc is that she is learning the power of promises and, by extention, is learning to keep the promises she makes to herself.

[Ragnorak]

On obedience in battle I suspect this is something she learned from Ned in Winterfell as well. A unit that maintains discipline will suffer far fewer casualties. Something in the order of 5% is heavy losses for a unit maintaining order. Once they break and run casualties jump to 15-25% so obedience isn't just about respecting a chain of command it is very much a matter of survival. This is a lesson that Ned would have drilled into Robb, Jon and even Bran. I think this falls under Arya's lessons more than it is a psychological barometer.

We do have references to all our religions here even the Many Faced God with the gift of mercy and the black and white smoke that WiDMNDBAMMD pointed out. While the individual practitioners seem to be able to get along the symbolism again points toward conflict. The followers of the Red God unleash fire arrows that burn the septry down just like the sept in the earlier chapter was burned. Fire consumes. It consumes the sept, it consumes the wood that represents the old gods, it even seems to be consuming Beric's soul as it is consuming the BWB with their burning desire for vengeance. We do get a positive fire reference with Arya curling up warm and snug next to the fire but most of the fire is destructive.

Sandor is called Joffrey's here and earlier he was called Cersei's by Ned and even Joffrey said he was his mother's. It may not mean anything more than that Joffrey is King now. Arya's hatred of the Hound is interesting because it connects back to her talk with Ned:

Suddenly her father’s arms were around her. He held her gently as she turned to him and sobbed against his chest. “No, sweet one,” he murmured. “Grieve for your friend, but never blame yourself. You did not kill the butcher’s boy. That murder lies at the Hound’s door, him and the cruel woman he serves.”

“I hate them,” Arya confided, red-faced, sniffling. “The Hound and the queen and the king and Prince Joffrey. I hate all of them. Joffrey lied, it wasn’t the way he said. I hate Sansa too. She did remember, she just lied so Joffrey would like her.”

“We all lie,” her father said. “Or did you truly think I’d believe that Nymeria ran off?”

In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm. Septa Mordane is a good woman, and Sansa… Sansa is your sister. You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you… and I need both of you, gods help me.”

She has it from her father that Mycah's murder lies at the Hound's door (and Cersei's), but she was also told to direct her hatred at those who would truly do her and her pack harm. We aren't there yet but it might be good to keep the question in mind as to whether or not Arya's final choice with the Hound has to do with Ned's advice about hating those who would "truly do us harm." Arya did see Mycah as part of her pack the same way she saw Hot Pie and Gendry as part of her pack. Does realizing they were never her pack influence her recollection of Mycah?

There's also the lying and Ned's explanation that her Nymeria lie was not without honor. She lies to Sandor and claims she's twelve which I doubt qualifies as an honorable lie. She tells a number of lies to guard her feelings. She does this with Gendry and probably most significantly with her reasons for feeling Robb and Cat might not want her back. She'll eventually end up playing the lying game and given Ned's initial advice and her habit of lying throughout her journey this might be worth a closer look.

With regard to justice, the BWB and Sandor I have to ask what they expected him to do. The Bloody Mummers were hold up in a septry where the brothers were tortured to death and robbed. I can understand not making any distictions between leaders and followers-- they didn't make any special exceptions for men of the cloth. The BWB have become bandits because their possessions that allowed them to survive have been stolen. They openly admit that Sandor has nothing left and no place to go. They took all of his gold without even leaving him enough to buy food. They have essentially inflicted their own fate of desperation on him and I don't see how they could reasonably expect him to do anything else but follow the same path they did.

[Ice Turtle]

They had numbers, but the Night’s Watch had discipline, and in battle discipline beats numbers nine times of every ten, his father had once told him.

Jon Snow. ASoS

Discipline is important. Before the battle and after the battle you argue and rebel against authority. In the battle you obey or you will die. I think that Arya had this knowledge even before going to KL. It also refers to her situation after Ned allows her to keep Needle. They have a talk and Arya is doing her best to behave because they are "in the battle" with Lannisters.

I doesn't make Arya mindless robotic solider it makes her more mature than most in the regard. Arianne with Myrcella plot, Sansa going to Cersei, Theon taking Winterfell, Cat freeing Jaime and maybe Lyanna running off with Rhaegar those are examples of disobeying "in battle", none of those situations ended up well.

The quote about obeying in battle is also interesting with regard of Arya's future interactions with Sandor.

[The Sleeper]

All in all, I don't think Arya is in good shape, despite the fact that her time with the BwB seems like easy living compared to what came before.From the start in ASOS she stated that she only felt calm when she was on the run, hunted, with two boys along in land she didn't know. Ever since she was captured, she's been put back in to the role of a watcher, a prize and in a sense luggage. It is no wonder that she is again likened to a squirell, a small animal that is prey, even though a golden one. Her state is aggravated from the fact that the two people she felt were on her side leave her. As result all her insecurities and trust issues flare up. During the battle she is like a dog on a leash. As angry as she is with the BwB for letting him go, she is much angry at herself for not finishing off when she had the chance. The assurances of adults, no matter how well-meaning, are just not enough and the hope of a home is shaky. Life has taught Arya that she can't afford to leave her fate in anyone's hands but her own.

[Pod The Impaler]

Beric is I think a good warning to those overly excited about the possibility of a Jon Snow restored to life by magic. Resurrection is no get out of jail free card. It has it's own cost. Fire consumes and consumes Beric's human memories even if his humanity is still intact. Horrifically he seems more humane than some of his men. The similarity with Melisandre is striking, no eating, just a bit to drink now and then.

Looking at Beric and Catelyn / Lady Stoneheart, it seems to me the undead condition they are in has a sort of stasis effect on them. They are not mindless, but seem to be what ... revenants ? ... who are condemned to carry out their own last wishes / desires / emotions, while nothing else of them really remains alive.

UnBeric is carrying out his final mission, which Eddard Stark gave him in the name of King Robert - to bring the justice of a true knight to the Riverlands. As long as he leads the BWB, this is what they do. They are not merely a stay-behind-army opposing the "lions", for they bring judgment upon the "wolves" and sellswords who are guilty of ravaging the populace as well.

With Lady Stoneheart, she reflects Catelyn at the end of her life as well - the grief, the rage, the distrust, the feelings of betrayal all around her and the desire for vengeance over the deaths of her family. Strange turn of fate for the one who argued against going to war, and later released Jaime Lannister out of desperation / weakness. Catelyn made some huge mistakes - out of kindness, out of trust, out of motherly instincts - and what is left of her in Lady Stoneheart, if not the resolve to never be so weak ever again ? All warmth is gone, and understanding, and compassion. She is an angry ghost, haunting the Riverlands of her childhood, fotrever dwelling on how it all went so wrong for her.

I have a feeling we'll see more of this as the coming war against the Others reveals itself. Wights, stone-men, and such may be more intelligent than one might expect, and their re-animation may preserve some fraction of their memory and personality. In AGOT, when the wights attack the Lord Commander in his chambers, they clearly remembered something of their former lives, and this made their actions deliberate rather than purely hunger-driven or something.

One wonders what the future may reveal about Melisandre. She does not eat, nor sleep? Is she human any more, or another one re-animated by R'Hillor - intelligent but driven by some obsessive and incomplete fraction of her original personality?

Anyway, this is getting off-topic so I'll stop the crackpot theorizing there.

Discipline is important. Before the battle and after the battle you argue and rebel against authority. In the battle you obey or you will die. I think that Arya had this knowledge even before going to KL. It also refers to her situation after Ned allows her to keep Needle. They have a talk and Arya is doing her best to behave because they are "in the battle" with Lannisters.

I doesn't make Arya mindless robotic solider it makes her more mature than most in the regard. Arianne with Myrcella plot, Sansa going to Cersei, Theon taking Winterfell, Cat freeing Jaime and maybe Lyanna running off with Rhaegar those are examples of disobeying "in battle", none of those situations ended up well.

The quote about obeying in battle is also interesting with regard of Arya's future interactions with Sandor.

Yes, and her willing "valar dohaeris" attitude with both Jaqen and later the Kindly Man. She is like a wolf in this respect - if you do not lead the pack, you must follow the one who does.

I like the counter-examples you gave, showing what befalls those who fail to maintain discipline.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Arya has participated in only one battle before (with Yoren, when he died) so her "in a battle you have to obey" quote can't be a result of experience. I am certain that she's quoting Ned here, of what she has heard him teaching the boys.

@Daphne, Arya's given orders in this particular context are the opposite of having her "training as cannon fodder". She is ordered to stay behind in safety against her wish, which is to fight. She obeys, because she understands that if she interferes unexpectedly, it is very possible to undermine the desired outcome of the battle.

I was reading the battle part in parallel with Cat watching the battle of Whispering Wood and the characters' thoughts and feelings are strikingly different... Arya is often compared to her mother and said to take after her. In some aspects it is true, but there are other important aspects of their characters that are nothing alike. Arya is a warrior at heart, Cat is not.

Many many times throughout all her chapters Arya makes claims of what she could do if she wanted to. Here we see two more and her promising what she will do.

I could be a blacksmith if I wanted to

I could be a knight if I wanted to

I will kill you next time, and your brother too.

Having read Dunc and Egg stories recently, I noticed young Egg having the same attitude, even having a few "I could if I wanted to" quotes of his own. Do you think Egg's character is modeled after Arya?

Looking at Beric and Catelyn / Lady Stoneheart, it seems to me the undead condition they are in has a sort of stasis effect on them. They are not mindless, but seem to be what ... revenants ? ... who are condemned to carry out their own last wishes / desires / emotions, while nothing else of them really remains alive.

I very much agree. This is how I view this version of undead characters.

Melisandre and Moqorro are different though. I don't think they are undead (but you never know, we 'll have to wait and see...).