Becoming No One: Rereading Arya III

[Mladen]

Milady, you never seize to amaze me with your marvellious essays... Well done, indeed...

[Lummel]

...And let’s finish...

was that it? I was expecting something more... ;)

The judicial duel here strikes me as a fight between idealism and realism. Gendry told us in a previous chapter that wildfire ruins a good steel blade and so we see.

Beric's idealism has motivated a hollow hill (ETA another hollow hills link, there is something about folklore that brings out violent colour contrasts in people :( ) and a landscape full of people, but we might suspect and AFFC will make clear how it is likely to end. Politically this is an interesting message. The charge is that Clegane is complicit in the Lannister regime. In effect he is guilty of a lack of idealism. He must have been aware of what Joffrey and the Lannisters were yet he was a faithful hound and sought no better master. Is this justifiable? Are all knights and great lords as bad as one another?

On the whole after this trial I think the standards of jurisprudence among the BWB are as good as it gets in Westeros. Clegane gets to state his defence (his "you're making noise" reminds me of his brother facing his accuser) his objections to process are not just noted but acted upon and he is patched up again afterwards.

I like Thoros of Myr here, one of the great minor characters were I not trudging the riverlands on account of my sins I should surely attempt to emulate his good humour if nothing else ;) . And Greenbeard "such an angry Squirrel" must win the understatement of the novel award.

My more serious issue is that GRRM clearly decided at the end of ACOK that Arya would go to Braavos using the iron coin. The only question is how to get her to a port. He divides her journey between the BWB and the Hound, but he clearly wants this trial of fire too. I find this as an awkward move - having the Hound skulking about until he gets a chance to kidnap Arya, but it does give us the repetition of Arya not killing Sandor, mind you I'm not sure if that repetition strengthens or makes that decision more powerful :dunno:

[Fire Eater]

That was quite an analysis Milady, especially with looking at the chinks in Beric's armor. He may be a knight and have some sort of justice, but in the end he's still the head of an outlaw band, and as Thoros states in AFfC and Jorah in ASoS, war has a deleterious effect on men.

[Uncat]

Milady, thank you so much. I'm so looking forward to read this while comuting to work tomorrow!

[Ragnorak]

Excellent job, Milady. That is a dense chapter and not easy to cover and you did an exceptional job.

Love the Gregor trial parallels especially the shields.

I think the part about Ned teaching to "take no pleasure in the task" is important. Arya is clearly not in that mindset here though the idea of Faceless Men not killing those they know seems linked to this same idea. Robb spares Osha before beheading Karstark and Jon spares Ygritte before beheading Slynt. This seems to a Arya's similar moment of looking someone in the eyes and choosing not to kill before she follows in Ned's steps and later kills Dareon for deserting. Neither Robb or Jon had to wrestle with wanting to kill like Arya does here. She also has a much harder choice in terms of who she doesn't kill. Robb and Jon both spare wildling women which is an easier call for a man to do in Westeros even if they are spearwives. Sandor is a much harder candidate to pass on. I think this speaks to how much more difficult her road has been especially for her age.

Religion

There has been almost as much imagery and symbolism of the Seven in Arya as there is of the Old Gods. Here we have the Seven, the Red God, and the Old Gods in a kind of harmony or at least lack of conflict. Later when Arya returns to Highheart we'll hear:

“Look in your fires, pink priest, and you will see. Not now, though, not here, you’ll see nothing here. This place belongs to the old gods still… they linger here as I do, shrunken and feeble but not yet dead. Nor do they love the flames. For the oak recalls the acorn, the acorn dreams the oak, the stump lives in them both. And they remember when the First Men came with fire in their fists.”

This seems to imply that the Red God and the Old Gods are in some kind of magical conflict or are incompatible. I wonder why there is no such interference in the cave which clearly seems to be a similar holy place and why the Red God champion is fraught with such Bloodraven like imagery. It is also curious that she mentions the First Men which implies the conflict with the CotF which ended with the pact where all First Men converted instead of the Andals who destroyed all the weirwoods in the South. Were the First Men originally R'hllorists? :dunno:

Many powers long asleep are waking, and there are forces moving in the land. I have seen them in my flames.

That struck as interesting. The Red God's power doesn't seem to be something Thoros needs to be shown in the flames. What are those powers? Dragons and Others and Krakens oh my? "Powers waking" could just be a way of saying magic is returning or waxing but then what would the forces moving in the land be? I've always just read that as "magic is back" but there may be a more precise meaning there.

We'll continue to get various religious symbolism throughout Arya but the union of the three big ones here and the comingling of symbols too has always made me wonder about this chapter.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

:bowdown: amazing analysis...

a few random other thoughts that I don't think were covered yet...

Animal stuff

Arya is reminded about the wolf dream when she tore the man's arm off and tasted the blood.

She's called a squirrel a few times in the chapter.

"Ask the goat if we've hidden, Hound. Ask your brother(who's a bannerman to the Lions), ask the Lord of Leeches."

A few animals there but interestingly Anguy is claiming that they're fighting Lions and Wolves and the Bloody mummers.

The BwB is very upset when the Hound calls them "Brave Companions" they don't like being compared to those sellswords it seems.

References to the number six

Six scores went out to bring justice to the Mountain....

A girl of six and seven were raped according to the huntsman.

Six times total the is Lord of Light/Rhollor said in their prayer before the trial.

Magic

"I wish I had a flaming sword, she could think of a few people she wanted to set on fire" was something Arya said in a previous chapter when Gendry and Arya are talking about Thoros of Myr's flaming swords. Gendry explains that the flaming sword isn't real it was just a trick.

In this chapter however, Gendry sees that it's not wildfire flaming sword it's something else he can't explain.

Presumably The Hound would be one person Arya wants to set on fire with a flaming sword, however, in this chapter after she sees what the flames do to him, she hesitates to kill him.

Arya wants to believe that Beric can't be killed but until she actually sees him die, she's not entirely sure if it's true, even seeing his scars.

This seems to imply that the Red God and the Old Gods are in some kind of magical conflict or are incompatible. I wonder why there is no such interference in the cave which clearly seems to be a similar holy place and why the Red God champion is fraught with such Bloodraven like imagery. It is also curious that she mentions the First Men which implies the conflict with the CotF which ended with the pact where all First Men converted instead of the Andals who destroyed all the weirwoods in the South. Were the First Men originally R'hllorists? :dunno:

First men brought fire to Westros, does that mean that they worshipped fire? Quite possibly. Don't know if it went as far as staring into flames and burning people for sacrifices but think of first men kinda like cave men.

I wouldn't say that R'hollor and the "old gods" are in conflict with eachother. First of all the "old gods" never claim to be "true gods" in the first place. They're just creatures with magical powers that live long lives.

Secondly, Mel and BR are both claiming they're trying to stop the others. They probably just have different ways to go about doing it.

[Uncat]

Amazing stuff, Blisscraft. Can do nothing but join in :bowdown:

As for the godly colors and imagary. The old god's colors are red and white like fire and ice. Not on conflict nescessarily but not mixing, too. And with all gods, there might be extra sacre places, which the other gods just awoid (if we picture them as people)

[Lady Arya's Song]

Hello everyone, this is my second post on the threads. The first post was a thank you to the Tyrion reread. This post is to give a heartfelt thank you to milady and Ragnorak and so many of you ( I will forget someone but you know who you are) I have followed you all on your various rereads and have laughed and cried at some of the indepth analysis that many of you have posted. I finally made an account to day to tell you how much I have enjoyed your rereads. Milady I think a while back you posted an indepth analysis regarding PTSD on Sandor perhaps on the Sansa reread. My son was serving in Afghanistan at the time and my husband and I were so moved by what you wrote we both cried. I am on my fourth reread of the series and your analysis of the "trial" of Sandor reminded me of Septon Meribauld's words to Brienne about men and war which reduced me to tears when I read it since I had skin in the game so to speak with my son serving. I just wanted to say thank you to all of you who regularly post on these threads. I find myself reading celtic folklore and looking up themes due to your posts and learning oh so much more than I ever realized.

[Blisscraft]

Would like to add to the idea of revenge. In the previous chapter, the group is looking for the Huntsman. The figure of the "Huntsman" in art and literature is associated with action for the sake of action endlessly pursuing unattainable goals. The "huntman" becomes a poster child for self-delusion.

The Huntman in this chapter serves not only as the charater who has captured the Hound, but also a metaphor for the unquenchable need for revenge. As noted above the Huntsman wants to keep his prey and punish him with his own brand of "justice," in the crow cages. It seems to take some pursuading to get the Huntsman agree to "take his prize to Lord Beric for judgment." Also, we have a description of the Huntsman: "tan leathers, balding, weak-chinned, and quarrelsome." He has no real distinguishing features. He's rather bland (note the color tan) except for his temper. Even his capture of the Hound is a bit bland. The Huntsmans dogs find the Hound, "sleeping off a drunk under a willow tree." (This image of the Hound beneath the willow tree will return later. Arya abandons the Hound beneath willows). It's a nice counterpoint to the fury that seems to drive the chase for revenge. It can happen to even the most ordinary "normal" person under certain circumstances. Martin seems to suggest that anyone of us could become obsessed with it.

In the previous chapter, the Huntsman was judge, jury, and excutioner. Now, once the Hound has proved his "innocence" with regard to Arya's accusation about Mycah, the Huntsman joins Arya in his desire to take the Hound back to the crow cages. The Huntsman is partnered with Arya, wanting, needing, chasing, and pursuing revenge.

The Huntsman, not only as a character, but also as a metaphor echos Arya's inner darkness. As an illustration of her darkness, the chapter's first line is: "Her eyes had grown accustomed to the blackness." By the end of the chapter, Arya is "cursing" the Hound, saying that he should, "go to hell." She has no pity for the Hound and his horrible wounds, no acknowledgement that he has been freed by the law. Nothing matters to her except vengence.

[Lummel]

... By the end of the chapter, Arya is "cursing" the Hound, saying that he should, "go to hell." She has no pity for the Hound and his horrible wounds, no acknowledgement that he has been freed by the law. Nothing matters to her except vengence.

Yet she stays her hand. She could have stabbed him, but doesn't.

I'm reminded of our previous chat about Saint Hubertus when we were looking at the wolves hunting in Arya I ASOS.

The Huntsman is tracking down various beasts for vengence but this doesn't satisfy him. Like the saint before the redemptive experience he's compelled to hunt again and again and again. Actually this is the man's identity now. Who knows what he was before the war? (All of which reminds me of another story...or two...must restrain desire to ramble...) Now he's just in this cycle of violence.

Arya and Beric seem to me very interesting. Arya stays her hand - the sight of him despite her anger causes her to pause. Beric observes that he is already in hell - Beric is a liminal figure. Is he alive? I suppose we'll talk about this more in future...

Sandor is accused of Lannister crimes, but then he was a hound running in a pack, but now he's a renegade. He was perhaps one of Saint Hubertus' dogs but has yet to have his moment of redemption that will put him on a very different path. (And Lyanna if you're reading you know that God is love and St.Sandor will be a hound for the Seven ;) )

ETA

Given Beric's comment on Sandor already being in Hell this seems a little relevant

On Good Friday morn, when the faithful were crowding the churches, Hubert sallied forth to the chase. As he was pursuing a magnificent stag, the animal turned and, as the pious legend narrates, he was astounded at perceiving a crucifix between its antlers, while he heard a voice saying: "Hubert, unless thou turnest to the Lord, and leadest an holy life, thou shalt quickly go down into hell". Hubert dismounted, prostrated himself and said, "Lord, what wouldst Thou have me do?"

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Trial by combat, justice and the gods

It's notable that most people in the series have a very materialistic view on this: The best combatant wins, no matter who's guilty and who's innocent. The gods may exist, but they are mostly absent in the humans life. Yet, it is a universally accepted method and the result, fair or not, must be respected by all. Pious people would say that gods work in mysterious ways. They may allow misjudgement in some cases because they have a higher purpose for the persons involved. All this godly environment reinforces the notion that gods were present in this trial and they are not done with Sandor yet.

Trials in-universe are almost never fair. Compared to some Lords and Ladys (see Tywin and Lysa), Beric and Thoros seem to be paragons of justice. They could have just taken the word of Arya and their people against the Hound's and proceed to hung him but they offer him the trial by combat instead, knowing that he is one of the finest swordsmen in Westeros. When he's found innocent, they protect him from the Huntsman and Arya and they release him.

Individual vs collective responsibility is an issue of discussion in this chapter as well. Collective responsibility seems to be the mainstream idea in Westeros for nobles and smallfolk alike, but here Sandor advocates in favor of individual responsibility and wins the "debate". At this stage, though, there is still hope for a Just Peace. Later, when the war "ends" by the prevalence of a main culprit, the Brotherhood regresses in the "guilty by association" view of justice.

Multiple inner battles take place in Arya's worldviews and emotions.

Pragmatism vs Faith:

"No," Arya cried, before Harwin covered her mouth. No, they can't, he'll go free. The Hound was deadly with a sword, everyone knew that. He'll laugh at them, she thought

...

Arya could only think of Mycah and all the stupid prayers she'd prayed for the Hound to die. If there were gods, why didn't Lord Beric win? She knew the Hound was guilty.

Hate and revenge vs compassion and justice:

The Mad Huntsman spat. "I say we take him back to Stoney Sept and put him in a crow cage."

"Yes," Arya said. "He murdered Mycah. He did."

"Such an angry squirrel," murmured Greenbeard.

Harwin sighed. "R'hllor has judged him innocent."

...

She didn't care what Thoros had taught them. She yanked Greenbeard's dagger from its sheath and spun away before he could catch her.

...

"You want me dead that bad? Then do it, wolf girl. Shove it in. It's cleaner than fire." Clegane tried to stand, but as he moved a piece of burned flesh sloughed right off his arm, and his knees went out from under him.

...

His arm, Arya thought, and his face. But he was the Hound. He deserved to bum in a fiery hell. The knife felt heavy in her hand.

...

"You go to hell, Hound," she screamed at Sandor Clegane in helpless empty-handed rage. "You just go to hell!"

Some comments on the second:

She really, really hates the Hound. She can't find it in her to forgive him, no way. She wants him to suffer. She even agrees to cage him, even though she was clearly shocked by the sight of the caged men. But she wouldn't be there to watch him suffer... It makes it all easy, in contrary to the essence of Ned's teachings. It is important to notice that Ned was teaching the boys on these things, not the girls. Arya has only a vague notion on Ned's views.

Then she sees how bad he's hurt and how much he is suffering, but she won't let compassion "corrode" her hate. She can't kill him though.

"Looking him in the eyes", as Ned said, she can't make herself kill him because she feels sorry for him, even if she doesn't want to.

Sandor urging her to kill him, as a way to end his suffering, can't make her kill him either, because she still hates him.

This is a dead end situation for her, and I think it's almost the same when she leaves him under the willow tree, hoping that some "higher force" will take care of the matter.

None of these "inner battles" is resolved and I believe that she is not in a position to identify and "work" on them at the moment, due to her age and living under constant threat and rage. They have an impact on her in the subconscious level, I think. (This is far from my field so I can't analyse it more, but I 'd love to read Milady's expert view on this issue).

[Blisscraft]

Yet she stays her hand. She could have stabbed him, but doesn't.

I'm reminded of our previous chat about Saint Hubertus when we were looking at the wolves hunting in Arya I ASOS.

The Huntsman is tracking down various beasts for vengence but this doesn't satisfy him. Like the saint before the redemptive experience he's compelled to hunt again and again and again. Actually this is the man's identity now. Who knows what he was before the war? (All of which reminds me of another story...or two...must restrain desire to ramble...) Now he's just in this cycle of violence.

Arya and Beric seem to me very interesting. Arya stays her hand - the sight of him despite her anger causes her to pause. Beric observes that he is already in hell - Beric is a liminal figure. Is he alive? I suppose we'll talk about this more in future...

Sandor is accused of Lannister crimes, but then he was a hound running in a pack, but now he's a renegade. He was perhaps one of Saint Hubertus' dogs but has yet to have his moment of redemption that will put him on a very different path. (And Lyanna if you're reading you know that God is love and St.Sandor will be a hound for the Seven ;) )

ETA

Given Beric's comment on Sandor already being in Hell this seems a little relevant

Our beloved Saint Hubertus is the positive aspect of the Huntsman or Hunter, isn't he? Funny parallel with the present Mad Huntsman: St.Hubertus's hounds find a stag with the Cross glowing between its gorgeous antlers; Mad Huntman's "dogs" find Sandor, the Hound, sleeping off a drunk beneath a willow tree. Watch a catch, eh?

As for Arya "staying her hand," she seems dumbstruck by the severity and disgusting wounds the Hound has suffered. The wounds must be pretty grotesque to stop her dead in her tracks. Arya is a very experienced girl when it comes to seeing the revolting and the horrible.

This hunter and prey motif is such a significant part of Arya's storyline. She is hunted and hunting. Within this cycle, it must require the hand of God, a miracle, to slake the blood lust. (She can taste the blood from the man's arm she ripped off in her wolf "dream"). She is "split."

[Lummel]

Our beloved Saint Hubertus is the positive aspect of the Huntsman or Hunter, isn't he? Funny parallel with the present Mad Huntsman: St.Hubertus's hounds find a stag with the Cross glowing between its gorgeous antlers; Mad Huntman's "dogs" finds Sandor, the Hound, sleeping off a drunk beneath a willow tree. Watch a catch, eh?...

Well lets say, just to explore this as a notion, that it is the model for this part of the story. GRRM can play the story two ways - a happy ending in which a reversal or redemption occurs or an unhappy ending in which it doesn't, Hubert carries on hunting for ever - there's no salvation.

The Huntsman is in the second camp, he is Hubert before seeing the stag as Christ (eh, this is all very seasonal isn't it?) he's angry at the killing of his captives, all he wants is to inflict more suffering. There is no escape from his condition (funnily enough Sandor isn't too different here). They are both hunting to slake their blood lust and their pain, but it is not the answer, it just feeds the pain and their own suffering. Sandor eventually sees the Cross (or the Seven equivalent) and can escape the Riverlands. The Huntsman can't.

Arya stays her hand, so she's part way there. Had she stabbed the Hound then she'd be at risk of treading in the Huntsman's footsteps - rage without end.

[Blisscraft]

Lummel - I completely agree and that was my point. Although, as usual, you make it clearer than I ever could.

ETA: Sadly, Arya's desire to become a "faceless man" and/or assassin seems to be a continuation of the negative aspects of the hunter or huntsman.

[Lummel]

Lummel - I completely agree and that was my point. Although, as usual, you make it clearer than I ever could.

ETA: Sadly, Arya's desire to become a "faceless man" and/or assassin seems to be a continuation of the negative aspects of the hunter or huntsman.

Sorry Missus! I read your post with my sarcasm googles on since due to wandering away from the true path of reread threads and generally falling off the wagon, I'm no longer used to agreement :blushing: .

With regard to your ETA, yes, I think it is worrying,

[Ragnorak]

<snip>

First men brought fire to Westros, does that mean that they worshipped fire? Quite possibly. Don't know if it went as far as staring into flames and burning people for sacrifices but think of first men kinda like cave men.

I wouldn't say that R'hollor and the "old gods" are in conflict with eachother. First of all the "old gods" never claim to be "true gods" in the first place. They're just creatures with magical powers that live long lives.

Secondly, Mel and BR are both claiming they're trying to stop the others. They probably just have different ways to go about doing it.

I was mostly musing on the mixed religious imagery. Bloodraven is an Old Gods figure and here we have Beric who is both a one-eyed figure in a weirwood throne and also the champion of fire. The BWB are claiming to be knights (which are of the Faith) and followers of the Red God. I'm just not sure what to make of the religious blend and I can't seem to recall any other chapters where they are mixed like they are here.

The Huntsman

Arya's wolf dreams are about the hunt as well. The prey is nourishing and natural for Nymeria, but as Jojen is fond of reminding Bran not so for Arya. Still, the wolf is a part of her so the hunt is natural for Arya. It seems she is in a similar position to Bran where she must resist the urge to be consumed by the wolf and lost in the hunt and prey that cannot sustain her.

The hunt and the prey are similar to the journey and the destination. The other huntsman, not so good King Robert, actually enjoyed the journey to throne but not the destination. His real prey was Lyanna but his hunt found Rhaegar and his destination was the Iron Throne not home at Storms End. The Mad Huntsman is also really after his dead wife and family. The futility of finding his true prey is what pushes justice into vengeance. Arya's prey is her family and her intended destination is home. Both of those are obtainable for her even if Ned and soon Robb and Cat are gone. She may face a time when she hears Jon is dead and believes all is lost but she is not quite at this Robert or Mad Huntsman point yet.

The hunt also brings to mind the thrill of the chase which can have romantic connotations. The Mad Huntsman lost his wife and our other Huntsman, Robert, lost Lyanna. Gendry was upset last chapter because Arya's birth status destroyed his thrill of the chase. He surrendered on his hunt for Arya and we saw the bitterness that followed. Arya is not there yet. She claimed the boy clothes as hers over the girly clothes she was given in the brothel and again is mistaken for a boy by Sandor. She may be prey for Gendry and the pervert in the Peach but she isn't aware enough of the chase to participate yet.

ETA

There's also the odd bit about Beric looking like a scarecrow. It does fit with his role of protecting the crops from scavengers, but it also puts him in an antagonistic role with crows/ravens that are so closely tied to Bloodraven who he seems to be a bit of a standin for here.

[Blisscraft]

Wonderful, Ragnorak! I was struck by the blending of religious imagery as well. Old gods, new gods, and newer gods. Could it possibly mean that . . . perhaps the only differences between the gods are the ones people create? Maybe I go too far. . .

One of the other images associated with Arya is the horse. This will probably make Lummel's head explode (sorry dear Lummel :frown5: ), but I can't help thinking that the horse, "prey" is attached to her as part of the metaphor of her being hunted as prey and hunting as hunter or wolf.

[Lummel]

...One of the other images associated with Arya is the horse. This will probably make Lummel's head explode (sorry dear Lummel :frown5: ), but I can't help thinking that the horse, "prey" is attached to her as part of the metaphor of her being hunted as prey and hunting as hunter or wolf.

Well she is hunter and hunted isn't she?

Isn't that where we started this line of enquiry? She was being hunted by the bloody mummers but transformed in to the virgin huntress Nymeria the wolf hunted down her hunters by night (shades of Actaeon there). Spiritually that's true with her home made religion of anger with its prayer of people whose deaths she wants that stands both as rejection of her father's and mother's faiths yet stand witness to her need to have her spiritual void filled?

[Blisscraft]

Well she is hunter and hunted isn't she?

Isn't that where we started this line of enquiry? She was being hunted by the bloody mummers but transformed in to the virgin huntress Nymeria the wolf hunted down her hunters by night (shades of Actaeon there). Spiritually that's true with her home made religion of anger with its prayer of people whose deaths she wants that stands both as rejection of her father's and mother's faiths yet stand witness to her need to have her spiritual void filled?

Indeed.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

...

One of the other images associated with Arya is the horse. This will probably make Lummel's head explode (sorry dear Lummel :frown5: ), but I can't help thinking that the horse, "prey" is attached to her as part of the metaphor of her being hunted as prey and hunting as hunter or wolf.

I think Arya's arc could be titled "From prey to huntress" to paraphrase Sansa's threads :)

At this time in the story she's mostly the pray and sometimes becomes the hunter through Nymeria, but currently in the books she's learning to track down and kill the "prey" on her own.

I disagree on horses though. They are not the pray usually; they are an instrument of the hunter.