Becoming No One: Rereading Arya III

[Blisscraft]

I think Arya's arc could be titled "From prey to huntress" to paraphrase Sansa's threads :)

At this time in the story she's mostly the pray and sometimes becomes the hunter through Nymeria, but currently in the books she's learning to track down and kill the "prey" on her own.

I disagree on horses though. They are not the pray usually; they are an instrument of the hunter.

SCR - Used the word "prey" to apply to horse because of an objection made earlier in the thread (perhaps before you joined us). The idea in the previous use of the word "prey" as applied to horse was that one could not be both prey and hunter or more precisely both "horse" and "direwolf."

Obviously, horses can be used by hunters, just like hounds or dogs, but they are also "food." See the Dothraki diet. The Ghiscari eat dogs and by Westerosi standards, the eating of dog is unpalatable to say the least.

Finally, it's interesting that you misspelled the word "prey" and substituted "pray." A Freudian slip, perhaps? ;)

[Mladen]

I think Arya's arc could be titled "From prey to huntress" to paraphrase Sansa's threads :)

At this time in the story she's mostly the pray and sometimes becomes the hunter through Nymeria, but currently in the books she's learning to track down and kill the "prey" on her own.

I disagree on horses though. They are not the pray usually; they are an instrument of the hunter.

For me Arya has always walked the both paths - of the prey and of the huntress. With Sansa it`s clearer since she admits she was never a player.

But I also have a bit problem of seeing Arya`s arc as `becoming no one`

[Lonin]

Nice summary of Arya VI.

Arya is my favorite Stark child and Sandor is another favorite ( I enjoy reading about warrior type characters, good, bad, all shades of gray).

My first reaction was why has GRRM brought The Hound into the Arya story arc.... Why the Hound in both of the Stark sister arcs... Is it a foreshadow of some future event??? I spent much of the remaining book(s) trying deduce why have the Hound in both Stark sister story arcs (of course the answer could be why not).

[Lord Godric]

Nice summary of Arya VI.

Arya is my favorite Stark child and Sandor is another favorite ( I enjoy reading about warrior type characters, good, bad, all shades of gray).

My first reaction was why has GRRM brought The Hound into the Arya story arc.... Why the Hound in both of the Stark sister arcs... Is it a foreshadow of some future event??? I spent much of the remaining book(s) trying deduce why have the Hound in both Stark sister story arcs (of course the answer could be why not).

That is definitely an interesting choice that I never gave thought to before. Perhaps it was to show how the Stark sisters react differently to the Hound? Thus further emphasizing their differences? That feels like an answer that may, perhaps, be too shallow but I do think that we see the many differences between Arya and Sansa when they interact with the Hound.

[Lummel]

Sandor is a useful means of keeping Arya busy for half of ASOS and secondly a means of getting her to a port to allow her to reach Braavos. GRRM decided that Arya would go to Braavos already at the end of ACOK - I suppose one could argue that Arya's narrative in ASOS is treading water until it was time for her to get there.

I'm not sure if at first there was a greater meaning to Sandor/Arya, maybe it was serendipitous. On the other hand he represents like the Huntsman the kind of person that Arya could become if she lets hate, fear and anger take over her, so there is that, Sandor as a warning and a model.

Sandor is a minor character, but another way of looking at it is how the Stark girls cause that bitter and hate filled man to change by giving him a chance to die and be reborn on the Quiet Isle as a man of the gods.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

I was mostly musing on the mixed religious imagery. Bloodraven is an Old Gods figure and here we have Beric who is both a one-eyed figure in a weirwood throne and also the champion of fire. The BWB are claiming to be knights (which are of the Faith) and followers of the Red God. I'm just not sure what to make of the religious blend and I can't seem to recall any other chapters where they are mixed like they are here.

I don't think there's ever been such a huge conflict between the gods. This chapter might as well be called clash of the gods.

Gendry prays to the mother when he sees Beric's wounds, but the moment when the sword takes fire and he witnesses magic he whispers a prayer that Arya can't hear. We don't see his reaction at the end when Beric come back to life.

The Hound curses them with the taunt "burn in seven hells" - faith of the seven, though I'd doubt to call him a very religious man.

Arya has prayed and prayed and prayed for the Hound to die, for a chance to kill him, he's a charter member of her list. When the BwBs fails her and says that this Lord of Light judged him innocent she doesn't care. She even questions how the gods can let him live if there really were gods. She doubts her faith in the gods too.

People already chimed in about how the huntsmen feels about it all. He clearly wants vengeance.

"Rulore" might have judged him innocent but she is a Stark who keep the old gods and "the old way" ... "she knows he's guilty of killing Mycah and she's heard her father's words once "the man that passes sentence should swing the sword" .... she is unable to do it. Despite knowing he's guilty, despite all her hate of wanting him dead, despite having the chance.

"Go to hell...." I'm more interested by what Beric means when he says "he has" does he mean from his old wound? That the Hound experienced the pain of death by flame once in his youth?

One more thing is the fact that the ground drinks Beric's blood when he dies, they're surrounded by weirwoods in ancient sanctuary. For shadowing that the old gods are drinking his blood.

In this battle of the gods, the old gods win or at least it's a stalemate. I'd actually claim that the Many Faced God Wins, but we haven't met him yet. The Hound lives only to kill his brother, his list is Ser Gregor The Mountain. His horse is always called the stranger, which the MFG representative in the seven.

Beric fails to kill the Hound when he passes the sentence of Trial by Combat, Arya fails to kill him because she can't carry out the sentence ( the knife felt heavy in her hand)

This isn't just about a battle for life and death, it appears to be a battle of "Old gods/new gods and other gods" and a battle for two men's souls.

If the Hound loses I doubt Thoros brings him back to life like he does to Beric, just one more way that the trail isn't fair.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

SCR - Used the word "prey" to apply to horse because of an objection made earlier in the thread (perhaps before you joined us). The idea in the previous use of the word "prey" as applied to horse was that one could not be both prey and hunter or more precisely both "horse" and "direwolf."

Obviously, horses can be used by hunters, just like hounds or dogs, but they are also "food." See the Dothraki diet. The Ghiscari eat dogs and by Westerosi standards, the eating of dog is unpalatable to say the least.

Finally, it's interesting that you misspelled the word "prey" and substituted "pray." A Freudian slip, perhaps? ;)

I 'm so very prone to typos and spelling mistakes :$

Yes, horses are meat, as are men... Nymeria has unbalanced the established order of the food chain in Riverlands, hasn't she?

I was thinking that in Arya's animal imagery, the horse does not play the "prey" role so much. Sheep, mouse, squirrel are more in line with this. Horses have mostly been a means to escape, so far.

@Mladen

I don't mind the title. She does become no one when she loses her family (temporarily, I hope)...

Everyone, always walks both paths, it applies equally in the game of the Wild as in the game of Thrones. But from the day she fled from Red Keep to this point she has mostly been hunted, captured and hunted again, thus being "prey". Since I believe she 's going to come back seeking revenge (or justice, maybe something in-between), she will be the one mostly doing the chase. It's all about which of the two is heavier in the balance.

[Lummel]

...The Hound lives only to kill his brother, his list is Ser Gregor The Mountain. His horse is always called the stranger, which the MFG representative in the seven...

That I think is the hell that Sandor is in that Beric is referring to. His life is a hell of pain and hatred, something sufficiently well known for Beric to be aware of it

[Mladen]

@Mladen

I don't mind the title. She does become no one when she loses her family (temporarily, I hope)...

Everyone, always walks both paths, it applies equally in the game of the Wild as in the game of Thrones. But from the day she fled from Red Keep to this point she has mostly been hunted, captured and hunted again, thus being "prey". Since I believe she 's going to come back seeking revenge (or justice, maybe something in-between), she will be the one mostly doing the chase. It's all about which of the two is heavier in the balance.

I think the title is a great reffrence to Arya`s loss of family, but as I already expressed my opinion, I can`t see her fully embracing FM philosophy, or at least part of Nymeria and Needle in her won`t allow it. I agree she ws the hunted one for so long, but she also hunted her enemies, look for example in Harrenhall, she was a mice, but she was also the Ghost of Harrenhall. And I agree with you. She may never be stopped hunted, but she will hunt in the future...

[Lykos]

Horses are animals of flight, they bolt. They´re also very social just like wolves. They don´t hide as mice or rely on camouflage. Wolves hunt as pack they encircle their prey and don´t use stealth as cats do. ^_^

Regarding the Hound´s trial I want to bring this Theon quote from Dance to attention.

"...How is it you still breathe?” “The gods are not done with me,” Theon answered,...

I agree with Lummel that Sandor´s life is a hell of pain and hatred, pobably ever since he failed to protect his sister. Was she a "

"?

What I don´t like is to equate the stranger with just death alone.

The Maid was beautiful, the Crone wizened and wise. And the seventh face . . . the Stranger was neither male nor female, yet both, ever the outcast, the wanderer from far places, less and more than human, unknown and unknowable. Here the face was a black oval, a shadow with stars for eyes.

Clash, ch. 33 Catelyn.

[Blisscraft]

Sandor is a useful means of keeping Arya busy for half of ASOS and secondly a means of getting her to a port to allow her to reach Braavos. GRRM decided that Arya would go to Braavos already at the end of ACOK - I suppose one could argue that Arya's narrative in ASOS is treading water until it was time for her to get there.

I'm not sure if at first there was a greater meaning to Sandor/Arya, maybe it was serendipitous. On the other hand he represents like the Huntsman the kind of person that Arya could become if she lets hate, fear and anger take over her, so there is that, Sandor as a warning and a model.

Sandor is a minor character, but another way of looking at it is how the Stark girls cause that bitter and hate filled man to change by giving him a chance to die and be reborn on the Quiet Isle as a man of the gods.

I LOVE THIS! That's why I wanted post it again in my post. :bowdown:

[Lummel]

I LOVE...

yes? I mean, I don't know. I'm conscious of GRRM having said he's a gardener, so I wonder how many of these smaller things are just serendipitous rather than planned. 'I need Arya to get to a port...ah-ha I've got Sandor floating about!' or Tyrion and Mormont in ADWD I feel might be similar. To my mind Mormont gets to that brothel just a little too quickly, it seems like GRRM had a brain wave - 'I need Tyrion to get to Meereen as a slave, hmm why not use Mormont!'

[Lonin]

yes? I mean, I don't know. I'm conscious of GRRM having said he's a gardener, so I wonder how many of these smaller things are just serendipitous rather than planned. 'I need Arya to get to a port...ah-ha I've got Sandor floating about!'

Yup, I think this is most likely, plus he needed a POV to move Sandor's story along.

[Ragnorak]

The horse is prey here because in Arya's dream that is what Nymeria and her pack hunt down and eat. There was an excellent post early on in the reread (by Blisscraft iirc) comparing Arya to horses. The idea of Arya's wolf side consuming an aspect of herself fits with the Huntsman representing being consumed by vengeance.

WiDMNDBAMMD-- I wish I knew exactly what to make of this religious symbolism and the crossover and mixing of aspects. The Many Faced God seems to be cheated here which fits with Milady's general take on the "justice" that fails to take place here (beyond the reluctant abiding by the verdict.) Only death my pay for life yet no one dies to bring Beric back Staking one's life on the conviction of guilt or innocence is a key part of trial by combat--the parties are literally betting their lives on their professed beliefs. Beric cheats on the stakes and cheats the Many Faced God of his due.

The first chapter in the series is Ned dispensing justice. He kills a man fleeing supernatural forces of ice with a sword that is named Ice in accordance with the old ways of the First Men's Old Gods. We then see Cat approaching Ned while he reflects on this justice and her thoughts are a long comparison of the differences between the Old and New Gods. The last time Arya saw Sandor was at Ned's beheading where he swore a lie to the New Gods at their holiest place. He is beheaded with the same sword named Ice in an attempt to protect Sansa. His promised sentence is a miscarriage of justice and his actual fate is a betrayal and stain upon a holy place.

The young Ned we see brings Ned to mind for the reader and Sandor's confessions are tied to Ned as well. Mycah led to Lady's death which deprived Sansa of her wolf as protection just as Sandor allowing Ned to be executed again deprived Sansa of protection (setting aside what he pragmaticaly might have done.) His third confession is about his own direct failure to protect Sansa. The justice here is being carried out by a flaming sword fueled by the supernatural forces of fire in contrast to the earlier justice and injustice carried out by Ice. Ice is also later "broken in two" like Beric's sword.

These people claim to Robert's men but they were sent out by Ned to bring justice to Gregor which would in fact protect these smallfolk. From Robert's reaction to Ned's decision it is questionable that he would have done the same. Their actual mission as well as the spirit of their cause is a legacy of The Ned but they are treating Ned's biological legacy as a hostage-- the very thing Ned refused to ever do with children.

Justice, the gods, and honor are an undercurrent throughout this chapter but the unifying metaphor or proper prism that fits everything together still eludes me.

[Blisscraft]

Ragnorak - You have my sympathies with regard to finding a unifying metaphor. With this in mind, I can't help thinking about Lummel's post above noting that Martin sees himself as a "gardner." There is a certain "AH HA!" aspect with Martin's plotting.

Also, "justice" is in the eye of the beholder in this world. As you so beautifully articulated above, poor old Ned got the "King's Justice," not only with his own sword, but also without a trial. Tyrion, so far in the series,(not a the time of Sandor's trial in this Arya chapter), has had two trials, both by combat, won one and lost the other, though he was innocent of both of the respective crimes for which he was charged. Unlike Tyrion our other TBC defendant, Sandor fights his own battle. Technically, Sandor is "not guilty" legally as he was acting on behalf of orders when he ran down Micah. Sandor triumphs over Beric and he faces the only thing that he truly fears: fire. However, in spite of this victory which liberates him from the custody of the Band of very unmerry men, he is a lost soul and like a dog, chases his tail until he finds a new master which appears to be at the Quiet Isle.

Justice, like love and honor, seems to Martin, more often disappointing than not. These concepts, love, honor, duty, justice, require sacrifices that most of his characters (like most of us) cannot or will not make. If there is any theme here, (and I'm just throwing this out to see what you think), it's perhaps that when the human heart is in conflict with itself, the outcome may not be what we hope and pray for, but rather something dissatisfying and possibly incomprehensible.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

WiDMNDBAMMD-- I wish I knew exactly what to make of this religious symbolism and the crossover and mixing of aspects. The Many Faced God seems to be cheated here which fits with Milady's general take on the "justice" that fails to take place here (beyond the reluctant abiding by the verdict.) Only death my pay for life yet no one dies to bring Beric back Staking one's life on the conviction of guilt or innocence is a key part of trial by combat--the parties are literally betting their lives on their professed beliefs. Beric cheats on the stakes and cheats the Many Faced God of his due.

We'lll learn in the next chapter that each time he comes back he's more of a shell, than the previous times. Eventually I guess we can assume he'd return like Khal Drogo did, a life that has been completely stripped of everything else.

We'll learn later on that the MFG takes the best of men and the worst of men. It's not a simple black and white thing, sometimes the bad guys win, sometimes the good guys win. Sometimes justice prevails sometimes it doesn't.

This is also true in reality, not everyone accused of crimes is guilty of them and some guilty walk away free.

The first chapter in the series is Ned dispensing justice. He kills a man fleeing supernatural forces of ice with a sword that is named Ice in accordance with the old ways of the First Men's Old Gods. We then see Cat approaching Ned while he reflects on this justice and her thoughts are a long comparison of the differences between the Old and New Gods. The last time Arya saw Sandor was at Ned's beheading where he swore a lie to the New Gods at their holiest place. He is beheaded with the same sword named Ice in an attempt to protect Sansa. His promised sentence is a miscarriage of justice and his actual fate is a betrayal and stain upon a holy place.

It seems like justice has a karmic feel to it. Ned thinks the man is lying to save his life in the first chapter, and Ned lies to try and save his life/daughter's life in the final one. Sansa and Arya lie about Nymeria and Joffrey incident, Ned tries to get the king to do it himself, but he refuses so Ned does with Ice.

The young Ned we see brings Ned to mind for the reader and Sandor's confessions are tied to Ned as well. Mycah led to Lady's death which deprived Sansa of her wolf as protection just as Sandor allowing Ned to be executed again deprived Sansa of protection (setting aside what he pragmaticaly might have done.) His third confession is about his own direct failure to protect Sansa. The justice here is being carried out by a flaming sword fueled by the supernatural forces of fire in contrast to the earlier justice and injustice carried out by Ice. Ice is also later "broken in two" like Beric's sword.

These people claim to Robert's men but they were sent out by Ned to bring justice to Gregor which would in fact protect these smallfolk. From Robert's reaction to Ned's decision it is questionable that he would have done the same. Their actual mission as well as the spirit of their cause is a legacy of The Ned but they are treating Ned's biological legacy as a hostage-- the very thing Ned refused to ever do with children.

Justice got blurry once Robert died, and they became the outlaws and Tywin Lannister became the Hand of the King. He fails to arrive at court to answer for the crimes of his bannermen. Does the declaration that Ned makes not matter at all?

Justice, the gods, and honor are an undercurrent throughout this chapter but the unifying metaphor or proper prism that fits everything together still eludes me.

I think if we keep spinning our wheels we might figure this out, or at least, come to a suitable conclusion for now.

People are ultimately in control of it all? All people are grey, there's few absolutely pure evil or pure good characters. Therefore the gods themselves rarely intervene in the affairs of men.

Sandor points out that "knight's honor" don't mean squat. Knight's are still men, they're just the same as other men, some worse for they are higher status than peasants. King's justice doesn't mean anything either. The king is still human and prone to error or worse, cruelty. The gods don't answer everyone's prayers all the time, infact I'd call their answers "coincidences" at best.

[Uncat]

Ragnorak - You have my sympathies with regard to finding a unifying metaphor. With this in mind, I can't help thinking about Lummel's post above noting that Martin sees himself as a "gardner." There is a certain "AH HA!" aspect with Martin's plotting.

Also, "justice" is in the eye of the beholder in this world. As you so beautifully articulated above, poor old Ned got the "King's Justice," not only with his own sword, but also without a trial. Tyrion, so far in the series,(not a the time of Sandor's trial in this Arya chapter), has had two trials, both by combat, won one and lost the other, though he was innocent of both of the respective crimes for which he was charged. Unlike Tyrion our other TBC defendant, Sandor fights his own battle. Technically, Sandor is "not guilty" legally as he was acting on behalf of orders when he ran down Micah. Sandor triumphs over Beric and he faces the only thing that he truly fears: fire. However, in spite of this victory which liberates him from the custody of the Band of very unmerry men, he is a lost soul and like a dog, chases his tail until he finds a new master which appears to be at the Quiet Isle.

Justice, like love and honor, seems to Martin, more often disappointing than not. These concepts, love, honor, duty, justice, require sacrifices that most of his characters (like most of us) cannot or will not make. If there is any theme here, (and I'm just throwing this out to see what you think), it's perhaps that when the human heart is in conflict with itself, the outcome may not be what we hope and pray for, but rather something dissatisfying and possibly incomprehensible.

Love, honnor, justice... A perfect trinity of emotional balance and yet so hard or even impossible to obtain. And I'm affraid, that trying to keep all three aspects in balance at all time may pull a person apart - even more then letting go of one of the aspects for the sake of another.

Love is the bane of honnor or justice. Justice is the bane of love and honnor, honnor the bane of love and justice.

If you try to get all three of them you might end up getting non, because even obtaining one more the often cost all the strengh a person has.

ETA

The Ned chose love over honnor with Jon and Lyanna and he chose love over honnor and justice befor his death. Cat got stuck with justice because she lost all she loved and honnored. And Arya is on her path

ETA II

Forgot to mention it, but great stuff everybody!!

[Daphne23]

But I also have a bit problem of seeing Arya`s arc as `becoming no one`

I think this sums up Arya's arc from books one to five well, but I would agree that it is unlikely to sum up her wider arc across the series.

[Lyanna Stark]

Great write up Milady!

Love your comparison of the caves in Bran's and Arya' chapters. The Old God references are strong and the environments similar, although Rh'llor is supposedly the deity present at the Hound's trial. I promise to write more later when I've had a bit more time.

Sandor is accused of Lannister crimes, but then he was a hound running in a pack, but now he's a renegade. He was perhaps one of Saint Hubertus' dogs but has yet to have his moment of redemption that will put him on a very different path. (And Lyanna if you're reading you know that God is love and St.Sandor will be a hound for the Seven ;) )

I refute all hair shirt wearing, meadow skipping, Riverlands salvaging future Sandor Cleganes. :P although I do know it is the dream of Septon Meribald that this shall come to pass and the Hound become Septon Meribald's spiritual successor, spreading love peace and God's love in the Riverlands.

In general I think redemption is a bit of a dull theme since it implies some sort of religiously motivated change of heart and perhaps it is personal prejudice, but I find the whole "I found God and am now a better person" story not very compelling. It's more interesting to me when a person has to work out their own issues without leaning on a god or religion. It makes for more conflict, more psychology and more interesting development. Or perhaps it's just me being opposed to the hair shirt wearing, meadow skipping part!

Lummel, your "moral compass" description appeals to me far more than the redemption theme in that regard. It seems such a human thing to "recalibrate" one's moral compass and it requires no input from deities of any kind either! (on top on the marked lack of hair shirts and meadow skipping :P )

(Sorry for neglecting this thread, I've been stuck with too much work and family obligations. Jon Snow has not chosen to make his appearance yet, although I think consensus is Good Friday (!) but we shall see.)

[Lummel]

...In general I think redemption is a bit of a dull theme since it implies some sort of religiously motivated change of heart and perhaps it is personal prejudice, but I find the whole "I found God and am now a better person" story not very compelling. It's more interesting to me when a person has to work out their own issues without leaning on a god or religion... "moral compass" description appeals to me far more than the redemption theme in that regard. It seems such a human thing to "recalibrate" one's moral compass and it requires no input from deities of any kind either! ...

Yes in principal I agree, but in this case Sandor is a background character so we can imagine that the seven could give him a framework for that recalibration. We won't experience that as readers in the way that we might be (I'm still divided on this) seeing a slight recalibration in Tyrion or the calibration of Sansa and Arya and siblings.

Now I am going to do something deeply horrible and unpleasant and I invite readers with a gentle disposition to skip to the next post because I am going to mix

and newtonian physics metaphors in an unsubtle combustion which will flood the rest of the post in a literal apocalypse of bad English style.

The POV characters, the Stark children in particular are like cue balls. They are prime movers (though impelled mayhaps by the divine rod of the author's typing fingers) who strike the passive non-POV balls and knock them out of their fixed orbits. Since the Hound has been a singularly bad dog he gets to be struck and knocked out of his Lannister orbit by the Sansa ball and then out of play and into the pocket of the gods by the Arya ball.