Small questions v.10004

[WardenOfTheNerds]

That's what I meant, I didn't remember what happened when regarding your question. Maybe something that happened offscreen? If you could provide a quote maybe? Or someone more knowledgable than me on the matter has an explanation. I admit I either never noticed this, or if I did I assumed it happened offscreen for some reason.

You are right about quotes, i should have provided them in the first place.

This is from ASOS BaG Jaime POV:

"-Threats mean nothing. He swears he did not do it.

-Oh, he swears, is that it? And dwarfs dont lie, ist that what you think?

-Not to me. No more than you would.

-You great golden fool. He's lied to you a thousand times, and so have I."

I think i dont need to quote the Tyrion's escape dialogue? Jaime even says "that is an impressive scar", it's just plain obvious they see each other first time in a while. So why does Jaime say Tyrion wouldnt lie to him, they never talked so what does that have to do with it?

[RumHam]

You are right about quotes, i should have provided them in the first place.

This is from ASOS BaG Jaime POV:

"-Threats mean nothing. He swears he did not do it.

-Oh, he swears, is that it? And dwarfs dont lie, ist that what you think?

-Not to me. No more than you would.

-You great golden fool. He's lied to you a thousand times, and so have I."

I think i dont need to quote the Tyrion's escape dialogue? Jaime even says "that is an impressive scar", it's just plain obvious they see each other first time in a while. So why does Jaime say Tyrion wouldnt lie to him, they never talked so what does that have to do with it?

I think he's just expressing his trust of Tyrion in general. He doesn't want to believe that his little brother killed his son.

[Revae]

^ That, mostly.

Here's a minor problem i have with asos: When cersei talks with Jaime insisting Tyrion is joff's killer, Jaime says "he wouldnt lie to me" or sthg like that, the point is, that Tyrion wont lie to Jaime. But, from their dialogue during Tyrion's escape it seems that that's the first time they speak since Jaime returned/Tyrion's trial. So, how is Tyrion supposed to not lie to Jaime if they havent spoken in the first place? Does Jaime mean that Tyrion wouldnt lie in front of court knowing Jaime is there? Well that's stupid, also Tyrion doesnt notice him probably anyway. Any thoughts?

Jaime knows through their relationship that Tyrion wouldn't lie to him. They have a strong bond. This is mentioned several times throughout the series. Tyrion refers to Jaime as being the only one who ever really cared for him.

That's why when Tyrion tells Jaime in the dungeons that he -did- kill Joff, part of him probably knows Jaime would see through the lie. We'll find out eventually but through Jaime's chapters afterward, we know he still doesn't fully believe that Tyrion killed Joff.

[WardenOfTheNerds]

^ That, mostly.

Jaime knows through their relationship that Tyrion wouldn't lie to him. They have a strong bond. This is mentioned several times throughout the series. Tyrion refers to Jaime as being the only one who ever really cared for him.

That's why when Tyrion tells Jaime in the dungeons that he -did- kill Joff, part of him probably knows Jaime would see through the lie. We'll find out eventually but through Jaime's chapters afterward, we know he still doesn't fully believe that Tyrion killed Joff.

Yeah i know and agree with all that, it's just that for me how Jaime worded it to cersei it sounds like he did talk to Tyrion about Joffrey before. I mean, he basically says that he knows Tyrion didnt do it, because he wouldnt lie to him. Well that implies, that he believes Tyrion innocent on account of him telling Jaime that, which implies them talking. Yet they didnt. It's more of a logical problem for me, i understand their relationship, but this still doesnt make sense for me.

[FittleLinger]

Yeah i know and agree with all that, it's just that for me how Jaime worded it to cersei it sounds like he did talk to Tyrion about Joffrey before. I mean, he basically says that he knows Tyrion didnt do it, because he wouldnt lie to him. Well that implies, that he believes Tyrion innocent on account of him telling Jaime that, which implies them talking. Yet they didnt. It's more of a logical problem for me, i understand their relationship, but this still doesnt make sense for me.

I agree with you here. It is implied that they talked, and even that they were alone. I don't have the books with me, are you positive they never talked before, are you certain he says something in the lines that he hasn't seen him in a long time when they meet in the cells, and was Tyrion in the cells the whole time?

[WardenOfTheNerds]

I agree with you here. It is implied that they talked, and even that they were alone. I don't have the books with me, are you positive they never talked before, are you certain he says something in the lines that he hasn't seen him in a long time when they meet in the cells, and was Tyrion in the cells the whole time?

Well yeah "that is an impressive scar" for example is a quote from Jaime when they meet in the cells. Tyrion also is surprised when he sees Jaime's hand, he says "oh God Jaime i am so sorry, but look at us, handless and noseless the Lannister boys". If they met before i imagine Jaime would notice Tyrion's missing nose and Tyrion would somehow notice the stump :D.

[FittleLinger]

Well yeah "that is an impressive scar" for example is a quote from Jaime when they meet in the cells. Tyrion also is surprised when he sees Jaime's hand, he says "oh God Jaime i am so sorry, but look at us, handless and noseless the Lannister boys". If they met before i imagine Jaime would notice Tyrion's missing nose and Tyrion would somehow notice the stump :D.

Yes, clearly.

Well, I agree it's weird. The context is that he could lie, but not to him, in the eye, I read it as you do.

Unless, they have talked about in the past, something in the lines of that he doesn't wish and would never do harm to Joff no matter of his opinion on him and/or the incest. I think that makes some kind of sense.

[WardenOfTheNerds]

Yes, clearly.

Well, I agree it's weird. The context is that he could lie, but not to him, in the eye, I read it as you do.

Unless, they have talked about in the past, something in the lines of that he doesn't wish and would never do harm to Joff no matter of his opinion on him and/or the incest. I think that makes some kind of sense.

No i dont think that's a good explanation. Look at the quote again, he says "he swears he didnt do it". That cant be reference to any talk they had in the past (before Purple Wedding) for obvious reasons. Jaime explicitly states that Tyrion denies killing Joffrey, and does it in a way that very strongly suggests Tyrion did it when they were alone. Is this one of a GRRM rare mistakes? Really seems so.

[FittleLinger]

No i dont think that's a good explanation. Look at the quote again, he says "he swears he didnt do it". That cant be reference to any talk they had in the past (before Purple Wedding) for obvious reasons. Jaime explicitly states that Tyrion denies killing Joffrey, and does it in a way that very strongly suggests Tyrion did it when they were alone. Is this one of a GRRM rare mistakes? Really seems so.

Ooops, yes, refuted. Well, I was just looking for some kind of explanation.

BUT: Reading it again I found another possible explanation! I think this may be it. Cersei explicitly states that

-Oh, he swears, is that it? And dwarfs dont lie, ist that what you think.

She is stereotyping. He is a dwarf, they lie. And with "Not to me" he might not mean that he would not lie to Jaime specifically, but that to Jaime, as in according to Jaime, being a dwarf doesn't mean he's lying. He does not agree with this stereotype. And states that he sees no reason to think that a dwarf is more likely to lie than someone who is not a dwarf - Cersei.

[WardenOfTheNerds]

Ooops, yes, refuted. Well, I was just looking for some kind of explanation.

BUT: Reading it again I found another possible explanation! I think this may be it. Cersei explicitly states that

-Oh, he swears, is that it? And dwarfs dont lie, ist that what you think.

She is stereotyping. He is a dwarf, they lie. And with "Not to me" he might not mean that he would not lie to Jaime specifically, but that to Jaime, as in according to Jaime, being a dwarf doesn't mean he's lying. He does not agree with this stereotype. And states that he sees no reason to think that a dwarf is more likely to lie than someone who is not a dwarf - Cersei.

Yeah i think you nailed it, havent thought of it that way before, but it totally makes sense.

[LyannaStargaryen]

In AGOT when Robert and Ned are drinking together after Ned steers the king to not partake in the melee, Robert says that Ned should have taken the throne. Nee replies, "you had the better claim, Your Grace."

I always took that to just be Ned dismissing Robert, but on a re-read took another look: did Ned in fact have a claim by descent to the Iron Throne, albeit weaker than that of Robert's more obvious/traceable Targaryen lineage?

At the end of AFFC when Brienne shouts a word, is it truly "sword" that she shouts for? Everyone believes Arya dead and Brienne had just discovered that Arya had been making for the Saltpans with Sandor Clegane: why wouldn't she yell out "Arya" instead to Lady Stoneheart? Might put her in a more powerful bargaining position with that knowledge.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

In AGOT when Robert and Ned are drinking together after Ned steers the king to not partake in the melee, Robert says that Ned should have taken the throne. Nee replies, "you had the better claim, Your Grace."

I always took that to just be Ned dismissing Robert, but on a re-read took another look: did Ned in fact have a claim by descent to the Iron Throne, albeit weaker than that of Robert's more obvious/traceable Targaryen lineage?

I just posted in a thread about Southron Ambition the idea that Edwyle (Rickard's father) Stark's father could have married one of Egg's sisters (Rhae or Daella) The ages fit and there is the Nan (who nursed Edwyle's brother Brandon) and Dunk connection. If that were the case, Ned would be 1/8 Targ, while Robert is 1/4... the "better claim"

I have a strong suspicion She Wolves is going to give us a big reveal about a Stark/Targ connection.

[FittleLinger]

In AGOT when Robert and Ned are drinking together after Ned steers the king to not partake in the melee, Robert says that Ned should have taken the throne. Nee replies, "you had the better claim, Your Grace."

I always took that to just be Ned dismissing Robert, but on a re-read took another look: did Ned in fact have a claim by descent to the Iron Throne, albeit weaker than that of Robert's more obvious/traceable Targaryen lineage?

At the end of AFFC when Brienne shouts a word, is it truly "sword" that she shouts for? Everyone believes Arya dead and Brienne had just discovered that Arya had been making for the Saltpans with Sandor Clegane: why wouldn't she yell out "Arya" instead to Lady Stoneheart? Might put her in a more powerful bargaining position with that knowledge.

1. No, it's not a succesion war, they are both rebels and they both have the claim by winning the war, but Robert has a better one, because he has Targ lineage in addition, whereas Ned has no such thing.

2. Stoneheart gave the choice of "Sword or noose", that's why Brienne yelled "Sword!".

ETA: What Lady G about a Stark connection is interesting. I still stick to my explanation, but it would be interesting should we know more.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

ETA: What Lady G about a Stark connection is interesting. I still stick to my explanation, but it would be interesting should we know more.

I should say that obviously I could only offer this as a possibility, based on mostly circumstantial evidence.

Which is why we really need to see She Wolves :)

[LyannaStargaryen]

I just posted in a thread about Southron Ambition the idea that Edwyle (Rickard's father) Stark's father could have married one of Egg's sisters (Rhae or Daella) The ages fit and there is the Nan (who nursed Edwyle's brother Brandon) and Dunk connection. If that were the case, Ned would be 1/8 Targ, while Robert is 1/4... the "better claim"

I have a strong suspicion She Wolves is going to give us a big reveal about a Stark/Targ connection.

I really need to get on my reading of the short stories outside of the ASOIAF main books. Very interesting, and would be a neat twist!

[oakenhelm]

Random Question: Do we know if knights like Barristan Selmy and Arthur Dayne or any other great fighter were closer to action heroes on the battlefield than just skilled men?

[TheButcherCrow]

Random Question: Do we know if knights like Barristan Selmy and Arthur Dayne or any other great fighter were closer to action heroes on the battlefield than just skilled men?

This is not Spartacus. Quoth Barristan:

"I have seen a hundred tournaments and more wars than I would wish, and however strong or fast or skilled a knight may be, there are others who can match him. A man will win one tourney, and fall quickly in the next. A slick spot in the grass may mean defeat, or what you ate for supper the night before. A change in the wind may bring the gift of victory.”

[Radical Ser Randy]

Don’t know if these questions fit this thread, but I didn’t know where else to find an answer.

How old is this forum, and for how long have people been talking about R+L=J on it?

[hint]

I think the quote was made by Littlefinger. It was a rather cool quote about pawns and players and pawns who think they are players and something like that. If anyone knows what quote I'm speaking about, could they please remind me what the quote was exactly and which book was it from? Thanks

[Andreas]

Nope. We know nothing ;)

So he could still be alive then right?