why all the littlefinger hate?

[butterbumps!]

Why I hate Little Pissant, Volume 6 (I'll make it up to you, Straits)

1. The things he does

I'm not sure that the trail of destruction he's left in his wake really requires that much explanation. But just to be on the same page, here's what I give the pissant credit for:

• The outbreak of the WotFK (starting with Lysa's letter and poisoning Jon Arryn, to lying about the dagger, to refusing to back Stannis, to turning on Ned, to beheading Ned). Without LF's prodding, the conflict would have taken on an extremely different form. Yes, we do know that Varys also wanted chaos, but we also know that Varys wanted a much more controlled chaos to ensue, not the immediate bloodbath that actually happened. There were obviously residual tensions between Lannister and Stark fro Robert's Rebellion, but it's LF's trolling that catalyzed the conflict and changed the nature of this war.
  
• Categorical inability to see people as people I include his treatment of Ned, Cat, Lysa, Cersei, Tyrion, Sansa, Jeyne, Sweet Robin, Dontos and everyone else who has had the misfortune of being a target in this category. The Pissant uses people for his own sick ends without any sort of remorse or regard for their personal integrity. He takes advantage of whatever good these people might have, using these positives to bring about their own ruin, which he orchestrates. To be clear, it's not that "honor," for example, cannot exist in the world by its own merit; it's that people like LF make honor a liability, so he is personally responsible for turning back the progress of human goodness as part of this critique. Further to this, there is no scruple he is above breaking; whether it's the fate of Jeyne Poole or letting Lyn Corbray diddle little boys, there is no limit to LF's willingness to abuse others in service to his bizarre ends.
  
• Patent disregard for any sort of decency This is related to the above, but goes a bit further in terms of how the Pissant plays his game. LF is willing to break any and all moral codes to further his endeavors. This is not a man who gets ahead by diligent work and personal conflict between the right and necessary thing. No, for LF, things like human decency are jokes to be shat on. The reason he's so "successful" has much to do with the fact that he's singularly willing to disregard any codes of honor, decency and morality that might otherwise interfere with his whims.
  

2. How he does these things he does

His "categorical inability to see people as people" and his "patent disregard for any sort of decency" are both aspects that I consider crimes as well as MO, and have already been covered. But let's look a bit further at his methods and personality:

• Appeals to the lowest common denominator LF's efficacy revolves around appealing to people's basest impulses. He knows plum well that Lysa is a very sick woman who happens to have an unhealthy obsession for him. He exploits her (inexplicable, imo) desire for him into a career path for himself. He sleeps his way from minor lord to Master of Coin and Troll of Westeros quite literally by boning her. He preys on people's weaknesses and turns any strengths (like honor, having a conscience) into weaknesses, which he then also exploits.
  
• Petty-Finger "Petty" should be his middle name. The man is incapable of a poker face, and gets visibly riled when he's outsmarted (for reference, see Tyrion's besting him wrt the Myrcella marriage). He takes everything as a personal slight, and makes truly unfunny jokes at other's expenses in turn, without provocation. He wants to be the smartest man in the room, and when he's not, he throws a hissy. He's like a Mean Girl that no one takes seriously enough to be offended. Anyway, the pettiness is a huge weakness in his game.
  
• He's not that smart LF gets way too much credit for his intelligence. In truth, there are 2 reasons why he has been able to get away with his nonsense: being "not important" enough to pay attention to and his willingness to sink to new levels of depravity. That no one has taken him as a threat due to his lower birth has given him the freedom to operate undetected. He's clever in that he's realized that this is an opportunity, and I grant that. However, his actual machinations within this framework are not brilliant. He's all about chaos and destruction, which doesn't take a genius. In fact, it's an extremely puerile mentality.
  
• His jokes suck Yea, I find his jokes unfunny and grating.
  

3. Caliber of villain

To my mind, LF doesn't have the finesse or charm of some of the other villains I enjoy from ASOIAF, namely, Varys and Roose. His pettiness, which is actually quite palpable in the text, really takes him out of the league of Roose or Varys as far as compelling villains go; I mean, Roose is a guy who can be lying down, naked and covered in leeches, whispering, and everyone in the room listens with rapt attention. Varys actually goes about his villainy from a different angle than LF; where LF is about the LCD, Varys actually uses things like honor and decency to admirable ends (Jacelyn Bywater was his man), and he's nothing if not subtle. Comparatively, I enjoy and even admire to an extent Roose's sangfroid personality, and find Varys' conceptualization of the game as string theory (DwD Tyrion I) more intelligent than anything the pissant's done.

I think there's something to be said for LF's rise from minor lord to Lord of Harrenhal. I think there's something to be said for the chaos LF causes in a system that does need to recalibrate itself. But much like Cersei's struggle with the patriarchy, LF is not trying to overturn anything out of a sense of justice or social change. In the same way Cersei wants to subvert the patriarchy for the sake of becoming head patriarch, LF wants to destroy the system so that he can become the last man standing. Further, his methods of doing this are not admirable or even all that clever (I mean, come on, his rise to power was done by whoring himself out sexually to Lysa).

In sum, I find the pissant petty, sleazy, inelegant and hugely inefficient in the long term. And his jokes suck.

[MasterJack]

Varys, later suggests to Tyrion that LF might have been the one who advised Joffrey to execute Ned Stark.

with ADWD ending, i think Varys himself might have been the one who advised Joffrey to execute Ned Stark.

[butterbumps!]

with ADWD ending, i think Varys himself might have been the one who advised Joffrey to execute Ned Stark.

It was LF.

[Ser Arthyr Dracenstein]

"Why all the Littlefinger hate?'

Because it's easy.

[Danelle]

Ι think that as far as Varys is concerned, Ned Stark had to stay alive but humiliated, just like the Lannisters wanted. That way, Varys could ensure a possible alliance between the North and Aegon. I also think that at some point GRRM confirmed that Varys was genuinely surprised when Ned was executed.

• His jokes suck Yea, I find his jokes unfunny and grating.
  

So true. His jokes are just mean, not clever and simply expose his own insecurities.

I think his worst was his reply to Barristan's "I am a knight...I shall die a knight"

"A naked knight".....

[Blackfish Tully]

Which is more than what 99% of people in Westeros start with. Pretending Littlefinger is a self made man is a gross distortion of the term, especially when there are characters who have risen as high/higher who actually started with nothing.

Littlefinger is a horrible person but to dismiss his rise to power as being nothing special is just completely wrong. In a society like Westeros advancement is almost impossible, the last time any of the Seven Kingdoms had a change of rulership was when Aegon's dragons roasted the Lord's of several of the kingdoms. For the last three hundred years there has been very little movement for the Houses of the Seven Kingdoms , some Houses have died off but very few have advanced to higher status. House Baelish becoming the Ruler's of Harrenhall and the Lord's Paramount of the Riverlands is a huge deal and should not be dismissed so easily.

[jons nissa]

It was LF.

has this been proven in the text? i think it was him but that we were just speculating.

[Lord Illidan Stormrage]

I agree.

The main reason why I don't like LF, has nothing to do with the fact that I like the Starks. I also like the Lannisters and the Targaryens. Some of my favourite characters want to kill each other.

Littlefinger, just like Tywin Lannister and Roose Bolton is a villain. All three of them had plotted against the Starks, for different reasons. Tywin wanted to win at any cost, Roose wanted the North, and Littlefinger wanted revenge for being lowborn. The Lannister and Bolton involvement in the RW is a fact. Sansa has no illusions that her husband's family, murdered her mother and brother. She is aware of the fact that Tywin Lannister had Robb and Cat butchered. On the other hand, she has no idea that LF betrayed her father. Not only that, but for different reasons, both Varys and Cersei wanted Ned Stark admitting his treason, pardoned and sent to the Wall. He might have been an ally in case Aegon arrived at Westeros, as far as Varys was concerned. In Cersei's case, everyone would see what a gallant and kind, and generous ruler Joffrey is, not to mention that I doubt whether Robb would continue the war after Ned was sent to the Wall. Varys, later suggests to Tyrion that LF might have been the one who advised Joffrey to execute Ned Stark.

Unlike the majority of the villains in the story, LF carefully picks his victims, he is not motivated by pride or bloodlust. To me he seems to have a vast inferiority complex, against men who are more athletic than him and of better birth.

I don't think he is that great. He is a worthy adversary, who likes to remain hidden and keeps his motives a secret, but for how long?

Yes he is troubled by young athletes like ser Dontos and Robin Aryn, people smart as well as handsome and his inferiority complex acts up around them. He wants power - to what end we do not know and can only assume - lets remember that the Reneisansse started in Italy when the merchants and bankers, plotters and lowbornes who jumped they station took controll - for 6000 years Westeros has not advanced in the slightest and Littlefinger is it's best chance for this.

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

I truly believe that Littlefinger is among the lowliest, most worthless wastes of human life in the entire series. He is a man we are not supposed to sympathize with, yet many do for some reason.

As for all the hate towards him, its a silly question. He helped kill ned who is universally loved and for good reason, he pervs on a young girl, he helped steal Stannis' crown, and in general hes just a slimy skeevy little guy.

You must hate Stannis then.

Dude, you're totally right. LF had no choice, IMO. They forced his hand! It was sex slavery for Jeyne or LF's head on a spike! The poor man is just misunderstood. Like Rorge and Biter.

Why do you think the Lannisters passed Jeyne onto the Great One. For him to let her go? No.

Why are the proposed options unrealistic? They all seem perfectly feasible to me. If you suggest that these options are not realistic because they wouldn't gain him any profit, you have a reason why people don't like him.

Precisely what is unrealistic about any of the options I provided you?

Ok, let's go through one at a time.

1. Ransom her back to the Starks. Considering that the Starks are unwilling to even ransom for Ned's own daughters, this is a non-starter. There is also the little problem of Jeyne knowing what went down when Ned was arrested.

2. Sent her to his keep on the Fingers? Why is this viable? It would just raise suspicion. He'd have to hire a ship, which would cost unnecessary time and money, and in general it would just be a tactic that would raise suspicion around him.

3. The Septas. The most plausible of the four, but it still have the massive caveat that by doing this Jeyne is taken out of the sphere of Lannister control, which they don't want.

4. Kept her aside. How? The Lannisters use Jeyne for their own ends.

The above posts really do highlight why so much of the criticism of the Great One is just ridiculous. People try and impose a moral and ethical code upon him that's just completely unreasonable for the context of how the Great One is operating. Errrr yeah, the Great One should act in a way that openly puts him in a position to conflict with the ruling house of Westeros . Good luck with that.

[danm_999]

Littlefinger is a horrible person but to dismiss his rise to power as being nothing special is just completely wrong. In a society like Westeros advancement is almost impossible, the last time any of the Seven Kingdoms had a change of rulership was when Aegon's dragons roasted the Lord's of several of the kingdoms. For the last three hundred years there has been very little movement for the Houses of the Seven Kingdoms , some Houses have died off but very few have advanced to higher status. House Baelish becoming the Ruler's of Harrenhall and the Lord's Paramount of the Riverlands is a huge deal and should not be dismissed so easily.

It's not wrong. Littlefinger isn't a self made man.

His grandfather established the noble House that ensured Littlefinger was born with advantages 99% of the Westerosi population couldn't dream of. His father established a relationship with Hoster Tully that facilitated fostering at Riverrun, connections which in turn allowed Littlefinger to pull off almost every scheme he enacts. His sick relationship with Lysa Arryn enabled him to get his position in King's Landing that led to his appointment as Master of Coin. He got none of this on merit.

Now, that's not to say he had no role in his own ascension. Of course he did. But pretending it was him alone who guided this process is just completely wrong. He had lots of help from his birth, from his family and from his noble connections along the way. Maybe not as much as a Lannister or a Stark might have, but still plenty.

You want to lionise a self made man who literally came from nothing, and pulled himself up from the gutter? Try Davos Seaworth. Bonus is Davos is actually a wonderful person.

[SerBrightflame]

Daenerys started with less than nothing. Peter had a reliable, if small, income, a stable upbringing with the Tullys, and political connections. Daenerys had a mad brother and a burning desire to see her home again. May R'hllor shine His Light upon the Mother of Dragons.

[Cas Stark]

Yes he is troubled by young athletes like ser Dontos and Robin Aryn, people smart as well as handsome and his inferiority complex acts up around them. He wants power - to what end we do not know and can only assume - lets remember that the Reneisansse started in Italy when the merchants and bankers, plotters and lowbornes who jumped they station took controll - for 6000 years Westeros has not advanced in the slightest and Littlefinger is it's best chance for this.

LOL, Littlefinger is no Lorenzo de Medici, he isn't a patron of the arts or the sciences. He has shown no feeling for the common people either.

[MasterJack]

Whoever win will be right, that's how history works.

When Tyrion killed thousands (and lots of his own men) with Wildfire, no one tought it was terible, 'cause his side' has won.

[Lord Illidan Stormrage]

It's not wrong. Littlefinger isn't a self made man.

His grandfather established the noble House that ensured Littlefinger was born with advantages 99% of the Westerosi population couldn't dream of. His father established a relationship with Hoster Tully that facilitated fostering at Riverrun, connections which in turn allowed Littlefinger to pull off almost every scheme he enacts. His sick relationship with Lysa Arryn enabled him to get his position in King's Landing that led to his appointment as Master of Coin. He got none of this on merit.

Now, that's not to say he had no role in his own ascension. Of course he did. But pretending it was him alone who guided this process is just completely wrong. He had lots of help from his birth, from his family and from his noble connections along the way. Maybe not as much as a Lannister or a Stark might have, but still plenty.

You want to lionise a self made man who literally came from nothing, and pulled himself up from the gutter? Try Davos Seaworth. Bonus is Davos is actually a wonderful person.

His relationship with Lysa gave him controll over a small customs in the Vale - he showed great skill and John Aryn named him master of coins.

[butterbumps!]

has this been proven in the text? i think it was him but that we were just speculating.

Varys confirms that someone did, in fact, give the order to kill Ned (in case we don't want to believe Varys, the App confirms that the idea to behead Ned was planted by someone):

"Yet that day on the steps of Baelor’s Sept, our godly High Septon and the lawful Queen Regent and your ever-so-knowledgeable servant were as powerless as any cobbler or cooper in the crowd. Who truly killed Eddard Stark, do you think? Joffrey, who gave the command? Ser Ilyn Payne, who swung the sword? Or . . . another?”

Then, right after the Purple Wedding we get this from LF, showing how he used power of suggestion to coax Joff into hiring the dwarves:

“I had to send to Braavos for them and hide them away in a brothel until the wedding. The expense was exceeded only by the bother. It is surprisingly difficult to hide a dwarf, and Joffrey . . . you can lead a king to water, but with Joff one had to splash it about before he realized he could drink it. When I told him about my little surprise, His Grace said, ‘Why would I want some ugly dwarfs at my feast? I hate dwarfs.’ I had to take him by the shoulder and whisper, ‘Not as much as your uncle will.’”

So, we know that "someone" planted the idea to Joff, and we have evidence that LF uses these sorts of tactics to get at Joff privately. Now, looking at the goals of Varys and LF, we can conclude which "someone" gave the idea. Varys wanted controlled chaos to simmer; in aGoT, Arya III, we hear him tell Illyrio that things are moving too quickly, that tensions are nearing boiling much faster than they'd hoped. Conversely, LF is credited as the person who has been causing said tensions to boil, and we know LF was pushing this from the poisoning, the letter to Cat, the dagger and betraying Ned. Both Varys and LF wanted to neutralize Ned, but only LF wanted immediate hostilities to break. To behead Ned meant that conflict would be irreversible and immediate, and Varys definitely did not want that to occur. It was LF.

[Lord Illidan Stormrage]

LOL, Littlefinger is no Lorenzo de Medici, he isn't a patron of the arts or the sciences. He has shown no feeling for the common people either.

Is he not? He has allowed merchants to progress and take stations (as Tyrion comments), values merit over birth*, as for arts this is something to be seen if he rules, also Lorenzo was not the nicest guy aroung - check what happened to the Pazzi family who conspired against him,

[MasterJack]

Daenerys started with less than nothing. Peter had a reliable, if small, income, a stable upbringing with the Tullys, and political connections. Daenerys had a mad brother and a burning desire to see her home again. May R'hllor shine His Light upon the Mother of Dragons.

She started with a powerfull name and Illyrio.

+without some magical dragons out of nowhere, she would be dead starving near Quarth

[danm_999]

Ok, let's go through one at a time.

1. Ransom her back to the Starks. Considering that the Starks are unwilling to even ransom for Ned's own daughters, this is a non-starter.

The Starks are more than happy to ransom Sansa and Arya; just not for Jaime. If Littlefinger had sent offer to ransom Jeyne for gold, doubtless Robb would have accepted.

There is also the little problem of Jeyne knowing what went down when Ned was arrested.

What exactly does she know and why is it a problem? That there was fighting in the Red Keep? Who doesn't know that?

She has no information that can hurt House Lannister. It's why Cersei gives her to Littlefinger; she's useless to them and doesn't pose a threat.

2. Sent her to his keep on the Fingers? Why is this viable? It would just raise suspicion. He'd have to hire a ship, which would cost unnecessary time and money, and in general it would just be a tactic that would raise suspicion around him.

What are you talking about? Cersei gave her to Littlefinger to get rid of. Moreover, Cersei said this;

Queen Cersei looked at each of the councillors in turn. “I won’t have Sansa fretting needlessly. What shall we do with this little friend of hers, my lords?”

Lord Petyr leaned forward. “I’ll find a place for her.”

“Not in the city,” said the queen.

After this, Cersei never, ever again speaks or thinks about Jeyne Poole or the 'danger' she represents. So if Littlefinger puts Jeyne on a ship, why would Cersei care?

3. The Septas. The most plausible of the four, but it still have the massive caveat that by doing this Jeyne is taken out of the sphere of Lannister control, which they don't want.

I'll again point you to the above quote. Cersei doesn't care what happens to Jeyne. She doesn't know anything, she isn't valuable or dangerous to the Lannisters. She only cares about her insofar as she provides Sansa a modicum of comfort Cersei would like to remove.

4. Kept her aside. How? The Lannisters use Jeyne for their own ends.

They're not. Until the Red Wedding, she has no 'end' for anybody but Littlefinger.

The above posts really do highlight why so much of the criticism of the Great One is just ridiculous. People try and impose a moral and ethical code upon him that's just completely unreasonable for the context of how the Great One is operating.

You're operating completely outside the reality of the situation here.

[Danelle]

@lordillidan

Actually I was referring to handsome men, who also happen to be physically strong, such as Barristan Selmy, Loras, Jaime and last but not least Brandon Stark. I think that the outcome of his duel against Brandon was a defining moment in his character development. Since he cannot defeat the Starks with swords, he will defeat then with his cunning plan.

I believe that he hates Tyrion, exactly because he is just as clever as him, if not more, and a highborn.

Dontos and Robert Arryn are physically and to a certain extent mentally weak. Dontos is the last of his line, alcoholic, Robert is a sickly child, who needs others to depend on. Littlefinger knows how to use people's needs to his own benefit.

Is your theory that LF actually cares for arts and the smallfolk? I am very interested in historical parallels, do you have an example from the Rennaisance in particular? A member of the Medici family for example?

[Blackfish Tully]

It's not wrong. Littlefinger isn't a self made man.

His grandfather established the noble House that ensured Littlefinger was born with advantages 99% of the Westerosi population couldn't dream of. His father established a relationship with Hoster Tully that facilitated fostering at Riverrun, connections which in turn allowed Littlefinger to pull off almost every scheme he enacts. His sick relationship with Lysa Arryn enabled him to get his position in King's Landing that led to his appointment as Master of Coin. He got none of this on merit.

Now, that's not to say he had no role in his own ascension. Of course he did. But pretending it was him alone who guided this process is just completely wrong. He had lots of help from his birth, from his family and from his noble connections along the way. Maybe not as much as a Lannister or a Stark might have, but still plenty.

You want to lionise a self made man who literally came from nothing, and pulled himself up from the gutter? Try Davos Seaworth. Bonus is Davos is actually a wonderful person.

His relationship to Lysa got him his appointment in Gulltown , his success in Gulltown is what got him appointed as Master of Coin. His promotion to the Lordship of Harrenhall and Lord Paramount of the Riverlands was because he was the one who got the Tyrells and the Lannisters together, which is the reason they were able to defeat Stannis and win the war. I never said that Littlefinger is a self made man but you have to admit he has risen very high in a very short period of time.