why all the littlefinger hate?

[straits]

Littlefinger's various monstrosities are obvious enough that no honest reader should have the slightest difficulty understanding what his detractors find so deplorable about him.

Agreed, it's easy to see why Littlefinger would garner hatred.

The real mystery to me is what it is about him that inspires some to incessant Littlefinger fellating. Even if I grant the absurd stance that skill in politics and manipulation makes up for warmongering, child abuse, and murder, still I find him less than impressive.

That could probably be assigned to the same impulse that leads to raving Stannis fans. Readers latch onto whatever they find fascinating, and some make the mistake of justifying the questionable deeds of their favorite characters in the process. It's not a matter of political skill making up for any of his monstrosities, but rather an 'admiration' for whatever he has managed to achieve - and that is of course open to debate.

The station he holds as Master of Coin he owes to his birth rank, through his relationship with Lysa Tully, accessible to him only through his noble birth. With this position he does his best to create chaos and to benefit in its aftermath. He can credibly claim a share of the credit for the sparking of the War of Five Kings, but surely he was more the beneficiary of the circumstances that caused the war than their ingenius instigator.

He does not owe the station to his birth rank; rather, his birth rank made certain situations accessible to him, namely the relationship with Lysa as you said. I believe that the reason posters would like LF is for the chaos he causes, politically and economically. A lot of the circumstances that would have caused a war were indeed in place regardless of his meddling, but his role of catalyst in certain events did make him an instigator, though less ingenious than malignant.

And from this chaos he has won at best a tenuous hold on two titles, at worst a purely nominal hold. I find the idea that he'll emerge from the ongoing and forthcoming conflicts with these gains intact laughable. Some readers seem to take Littlefinger's word for gospel on the subject of his own intelligence, I just don't see it.

His hold on titles and material achievement should not be regarded as points in his favor; I doubt LF himself intends to keep these titles as more than a front. What he desires was obvious from the start - an active role in the ongoing chaos, with the other players dancing to his tune, perceived or otherwise.

[mankytoes]

Littlefinger is one of the greatest characters. I have trouble caring about boring characters like Sansa (who seems to have a large following here and a lot of people dislike him because of her) while the smart, political, quick thinking, interesting Petyr dominates every scene he is in - every page with him is memorable and in the end he will be a great ruler - one who understands finances in a way westerosy can't imagine, supports the merchants and values skill and merit - the only one who can bring Reneissance.

Edit: Also i fail to understands the pedophile accusations - he is not atracted to children, he is interested in Sansa because she reminds him of Cat - it does not matter if she is 14 or 30 it will be the same to him, pedophiles and intrested in the childish appearence.

I'm not saying he's a peado, I'm saying he supplies a peado, Lyn Corbry, with children.

[butterbumps!]

Butterball, I choose you!

I promised a pal who likes the pissant for some inexplicable reason I'd lay off of these threads. If it gets out of control, though, I'll pull out my 98 bullet points for hating him.

:stillsick: :stillsick: :stillsick: :stillsick:

i thought we had an agreement

[The Great Walrus]

I promised a pal who likes the pissant for some inexplicable reason I'd lay off of these threads. If it gets out of control, though, I'll pull out my 98 bullet points for hating him.

I was wondering when you'd show up...

[Tagganaro]

Littlefinger's various monstrosities are obvious enough that no honest reader should have the slightest difficulty understanding what his detractors find so deplorable about him. The real mystery to me is what it is about him that inspires some to incessant Littlefinger fellating. Even if I grant the absurd stance that skill in politics and manipulation makes up for warmongering, child abuse, and murder, still I find him less than impressive. The station he holds as Master of Coin he owes to his birth rank, through his relationship with Lysa Tully, accessible to him only through his noble birth. With this position he does his best to create chaos and to benefit in its aftermath. He can credibly claim a share of the credit for the sparking of the War of Five Kings, but surely he was more the beneficiary of the circumstances that caused the war than their ingenius instigator. And from this chaos he has won at best a tenuous hold on two titles, at worst a purely nominal hold. I find the idea that he'll emerge from the ongoing and forthcoming conflicts with these gains intact laughable. Some readers seem to take Littlefinger's word for gospel on the subject of his own intelligence, I just don't see it.

This. This is not even to mention his extremely disturbing pedo-conditioning of a major POV character. I think the real question is "Why all the Littlefinger love?"

[jons nissa]

LF could have had no idea that would play out in the way it did. If the Starks raised the issue with Robert wouldn't Robert just say, ugh, that's my dagger. Who has been feeding you this rubbish?

he knew the starks would not go to robert because the knife really was too flimsy a piece of evidence and could have been planted by anyone. but it does further the anger and distrust in the minds of ned and cat since they were already predisposed to think negatively of the lannisters. did he know cat would meet tyrion on the way home? of course not. but he knew he had moved them closer to acting.

if we look closely at the incident, littlefinger had no idea who did the deed though he probably suspected jaime. still, he had nothing that he could use to pin it on him. once they showed him the knife, he believed his suspicions were correct and pushed the starks one step closer to acting against the lannisters. of course, he could have no idea of what really happened or that cat would have a chance to do something so soon. it's fair to assume he thought it was another bread crumb he had gived ned on the path to attacking the lannisters. eventually. the incident at the inn couldn't be anticipated by anyone.

[thegreatwhitebear]

I promised a pal who likes the pissant for some inexplicable reason I'd lay off of these threads. If it gets out of control, though, I'll pull out my 98 bullet points for hating him.

I understand he's despicable as a person, but is he any worse than say tywin, jaime before hh, theon et al whom ppl seem to admire despite their shortcomings as human beings.

[Draxus]

-he betrayed Ned

-he smashed one chance of happiness to sansa(the Tyrell wedding)

-he used Sansa to bring venom to the PW

-he manipulated Sansa to fall into his power

-he is using the daughter of the love of his life as substitute to the mother

-he is creepy

Those are the reasons why he is so awesome!

[The Great Walrus]

This. This is not even to mention his extremely disturbing pedo-conditioning of a major POV character. I think the real question is "Why all the Littlefinger love?"

Even if you're a completely despicable scumbag, someone will like you...

[bbstark]

Even if you're a completely despicable scumbag, someone will like you...

obviously! I giggle at everyone who thinks LF is awesome... your homeboy is going down in one of the next two books!

[The Great Walrus]

obviously! I giggle at everyone who thinks LF is awesome... your homeboy is going down in one of the next two books!

:bowdown: :agree:

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

and why is LF viewed as being a great character? I dont really like him.

Plot driver.

Not only because he's a smug, self serving bastard, but because many of his "fans" are the most obnoxious and overly vocal fanbase in ASOIAF...

You wound me.....

I hate him because of what he did to Jeyne Poole and because he is a terrible person.

What did he do to Jeyne Poole? It's one of those criticisms of him that I never seem to understand.

To the topic. I think the main reason people hate the Great One is because he "betrayed" Ned (often ignoring the fact that Ned essentially signed his own death warrant. There is also a seeming willingness to absolve Stannis of the same accusation, which often confuses me), he is a paedophile (a topic that I generally try to avoid, but I see the argument for both sides). Other accusations include "he started the War" (an incredibly narrow viewpoint) and a general dislike for his general shadyness.

Me? I love the Great One. He plays with fewer resources and is still winning, is good looking, intelligent, a plot driver, self-made man, put Tyrion in his place and is just generally pretty awesome. Plus he keeps his hands clean.

[The Great Walrus]

Plot driver.

You wound me.....

What did he do to Jeyne Poole? It's one of those criticisms of him that I never seem to understand.

To the topic. The main reason people hate the Great One is because he "betrayed" Ned (often ignoring the fact that Ned essentially signed his own death warrant. There is also a seeming willingness to absolve Stannis of the same accusation, which often confuses me), he is a paedophile (a topic that I generally try to avoid, but I see the argument for both sides). Other accusations include "he started the War" (an incredibly narrow viewpoint) and a general dislike for his general shadyness.

Me? I love the Great One. He plays with fewer resources and is still winning, is good looking, intelligent, a plot driver, self-made man, put Tyrion in his place and is just generally pretty awesome. Plus he keeps his hands clean.

Just...no... :bs:

[thegreatwhitebear]

I see now ppl aren't even debating anymore just saying what they want. So what if at the end h e ends up with all the power, the woman, and gold and everyone else is dead? See funny thing about these books and this author, no one knows what will happen, just like real life so to make a statement like such and such will die is ludicrous. Bc I'm sure that everyone who does bad things gets punished while the world is populated by angels, give me a break. Lol that's incredibly naive

[straits]

i thought we had an agreement

The things I do for butterballs.

Me? I love the Great One. He plays with fewer resources and is still winning, is good looking, intelligent, a plot driver, self-made man, put Tyrion in his place and is just generally pretty awesome. Plus he keeps his hands clean.

What exactly do you mean by fewer resources? Things like retainers, large stretches of land and a well known family name would only force him to function in the capacity of a lord whose priorities are preserving these resources. His status of minor noble and connections to the wife of the pre-Wot5K King's Hand are the biggest advantages to the ends he has chosen, giving him the freedom to maximize chaos and minimize accountability.

[thegreatwhitebear]

The things I do for butterballs.

What exactly do you mean by fewer resources? Things like retainers, large stretches of land and a well known family name would only force him to function in the capacity of a lord whose priorities are preserving these resources. His status of minor noble and connections to the wife of the pre-Wot5K King's Hand are the biggest advantages to the ends he has chosen, giving him the freedom to maximize chaos and minimize accountability.

Beautifully put

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

What exactly do you mean by fewer resources? Things like retainers, large stretches of land and a well known family name would only force him to function in the capacity of a lord whose priorities are preserving these resources. His status of minor noble and connections to the wife of the pre-Wot5K King's Hand are the biggest advantages to the ends he has chosen, giving him the freedom to maximize chaos and minimize accountability.

I mean fewer resources in the sense that he had no land (of significance. A stone tide and some sheep droppings), no swords, no titles and no authority when he began. Now he does.

[straits]

I mean fewer resources in the sense that he had no land (of significance. A stone tide and some sheep droppings), no swords, no titles and no authority when he began. Now he does.

And I pointed out why any of those would not be in his advantage. I believe that claiming material gains as proof of LF's intelligence, or stating that these gains are his end goal, both simplify his motivations.

[eggs]

I see now ppl aren't even debating anymore just saying what they want. So what if at the end h e ends up with all the power, the woman, and gold and everyone else is dead? See funny thing about these books and this author, no one knows what will happen, just like real life so to make a statement like such and such will die is ludicrous. Bc I'm sure that everyone who does bad things gets punished while the world is populated by angels, give me a break. Lol that's incredibly naive

ho, you keep telling yourself that.

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

And I pointed out why any of those would not be in his advantage. I believe that claiming material gains as proof of LF's intelligence, or stating that these gains are his end goal, both simplify his motivations.

Well, not really. If he'd had them he'd probably have played the Game in a different way. As it was, he began with nothing (relatively) and moved up. I don't think you can really argue that having nothing of significance was somehow good for the Great One at the outset. He turned it into something.