why all the littlefinger hate?

[eggs]

I suspect it's because most people care about what happens to him - now generally, most of us want bad things to happen to him, but we all care - ie, he inspires feelings and emotions in us, ergo he's a great character

thats a weird definition of great. Wanting an evil character who got off clean to face justice doesnt really make the character great or even good.

[thegreatwhitebear]

Also in regards to pedophilia I know most of us think of it in today's terms, but in a medieval society where hitting 30 was considered kinda old, things like that happened all the time. That doesn't mean it's not disgusting but ppl have to think about the meaning of things in context. Especially when most young men did die around 16-21

[The Great Walrus]

Also in regards to pedophilia I know most of us think of it in today's terms, but in a medieval society where hitting 30 was considered kinda old, things like that happened all the time. That doesn't mean it's not disgusting but ppl have to think about the meaning of things in context. Especially when most young men did die around 16-21

That is a wide spread myth, actually. Most women didn't get married until around 18-20 years old...

[Chaircat Meow]

Littlefinger gets dubbed Pedofinger because he appears to have been interested in Sansa when she was prepubescent (she was 11 in GoT) iirc.

[thegreatwhitebear]

That is a wide spread myth, actually. Most women didn't get married until around 18-20 years old...

I didn't say women I said young men. Outside of some circumstances like say joan of arc, how many women warriors were there? Most battles were fought by men, hence you were lucky to see a ripe old age. And when you couple that with lack of today's medicine the group gets culled further.

[The Great Walrus]

I didn't say women I said young men. Outside of some circumstances like say joan of arc, how many women warriors were there? Most battles were fought by men, hence you were lucky to see a ripe old age. And when you couple that with lack of today's medicine the group gets culled further.

Sorry, didn't take the time to completely read your post...

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Littlefinger's various monstrosities are obvious enough that no honest reader should have the slightest difficulty understanding what his detractors find so deplorable about him. The real mystery to me is what it is about him that inspires some to incessant Littlefinger fellating. Even if I grant the absurd stance that skill in politics and manipulation makes up for warmongering, child abuse, and murder, still I find him less than impressive. The station he holds as Master of Coin he owes to his birth rank, through his relationship with Lysa Tully, accessible to him only through his noble birth. With this position he does his best to create chaos and to benefit in its aftermath. He can credibly claim a share of the credit for the sparking of the War of Five Kings, but surely he was more the beneficiary of the circumstances that caused the war than their ingenius instigator. And from this chaos he has won at best a tenuous hold on two titles, at worst a purely nominal hold. I find the idea that he'll emerge from the ongoing and forthcoming conflicts with these gains intact laughable. Some readers seem to take Littlefinger's word for gospel on the subject of his own intelligence, I just don't see it.

[thegreatwhitebear]

Sorry, didn't take the time to completely read your post...

That's cool, no worries, just happy that we can discuss without everyone resorting to name calling :)

[Mladen]

I generally don`t like that Machiavellian types such as LF.

Betraying Ned is just the tip of iceberg, but what he did to Jeyne Poole is the part of iceberg below water. He maybe excells in Game, but as a human being he`s poor little boy who has it all now, and yet won`t have anything at the end.

[jons nissa]

Personally, I think he's great. Aside from the betrayal of ned, the guy is pretty much an amazing individual in the sense that, yes he started out with basically nothing but a title and now is one of the most powerful men in the 7 kingdoms. The guy is extremely politically savy and Extremely intelligent. He's basically one hellova chess player who doesn't hold to any one piece in particular so loosing a piece either through sacrifice or unintentional doesn't really hamper him. he uses everything in conjunction in order to accomplish his objectives. Basically he's kinda like the American dream rising from nothing to sitting at the top, in a scarface kinda way without the cocaine addiction.

i really like littlefinger but don't think it's his betrayal of ned that he should get flack about. that was him playing the game which appears to be his reason for being. that said, i dislike how he treats women. jeyne, sansa and lysa are the first ones that come to mind but he doesn't appear to treat any woman humanely. perhaps his ability to do this with people is why he is so good at the game but his lack of conscience for the welfare of the women left in his care is troubling. still, i love reading about him making his moves but fully expect him to be taken down.

and why is LF viewed as being a great character? I dont really like him.

is there a reason why you believe your liking or not liking a character affects how they are viewed by others?

edited for clarity!

[thegreatwhitebear]

Littlefinger's various monstrosities are obvious enough that no honest reader should have the slightest difficulty understanding what his detractors find so deplorable about him. The real mystery to me is what it is about him that inspires some to incessant Littlefinger fellating. Even if I grant the absurd stance that skill in politics and manipulation makes up for warmongering, child abuse, and murder, still I find him less than impressive. The station he holds as Master of Coin he owes to his birth rank, through his relationship with Lysa Tully, accessible to him only through his noble birth. With this position he does his best to create chaos and to benefit in its aftermath. He can credibly claim a share of the credit for the sparking of the War of Five Kings, but surely he was more the beneficiary of the circumstances that caused the war than their ingenius instigator. And from this chaos he has won at best a tenuous hold on two titles, at worst a purely nominal hold. I find the idea that he'll emerge from the ongoing and forthcoming conflicts with these gains intact laughable. Some readers seem to take Littlefinger's word for gospel on the subject of his own intelligence, I just don't see it.

Just bc a friend gets you a job doesn't mean that you're not qualified to do it. I think many ppl get a job bc a friend recommends them. And as to the other things like warmongering et al, why is that different than another character that does the same? I mean the greyjoys started a war that they cannot win. Tywin, Bolton and frey orchestrated the rw, Tyrells were in on the pw, martells and their plans with targs real or not, intrigue and such r part of the game. The appearance of power sometimes is just as effective when you make claims about someone's titles as well.

[eggs]

@jons nissa: me neither.

Also in regards to pedophilia I know most of us think of it in today's terms, but in a medieval society where hitting 30 was considered kinda old, things like that happened all the time. That doesn't mean it's not disgusting but ppl have to think about the meaning of things in context. Especially when most young men did die around 16-21

nah, its not even normal in asoiaf.

[The Chequered Raven]

He's a slug.

And even the cleverest slug in the world leaves a trail of slime...

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

Personally, I think he's great. Aside from the betrayal of ned, the guy is pretty much an amazing individual in the sense that, yes he started out with basically nothing but a title and now is one of the most powerful men in the 7 kingdoms. The guy is extremely politically savy and Extremely intelligent. He's basically one hellova chess player who doesn't hold to any one piece in particular so loosing a piece either through sacrifice or unintentional doesn't really hamper him. he uses everything in conjunction in order to accomplish his objectives. Basically he's kinda like the American dream rising from nothing to sitting at the top, in a scarface kinda way without the cocaine addiction.

I also think the character is great but you can't blame the ones who hate his guts. He is one of the few characters who still didn't receive any comeuppance for his crimes. On the contrary. Everything turns out right for him. I want to see his downfall and I expect it to be humiliating.

About the American Dream, I think LF represents the dark side of this myth along with the dandy archetype in 19th novels, specially in Balzac, like Rastignac, De Marsay, Duroy (in Maupassant), etc. His playful cynicism, charming and captivating approach, amoral nature and flawless ability to gravitate in "high society" (social climber) even seducing and marrying naive noble ladies to gain power (Lysa Arryn) cover the main aspects even if ASOIAF obviously doesn't take place in a world resembling 19th century Europe. Still there are elements of it and LF is one of them IMO. But like I said is a much darker take on it because behind that facade hides a monster that goes to a whole different realm than his french counterparts.

[Bluesnow]

As a human being he is the devil...

But as a character I find him amusing and interesting to watch. He is hard to predict, and we still don't TRULY know the full extent of his goals. So hate him because I loved Eddard as a character... and it pretty obvious he played a large part in his downfall executing him out of the story... but I don't hate him just because he's evil. If he was any less slimy and manipulative he wouldn't be any fun.

[Chaircat Meow]

LF's lie to Cat about the dagger really doesn't seem that bright in retrospect. He could have very easily been exposed as a malicious trouble causer because of that.

He was also fortunate Tyrion valued his financial contacts so much he just didn't throw him in a cell or kill him when he came to King's Landing because of what he had done.

[King Zee]

lets see

killed Jon Arryn

framed Tyrion (Bran)

betrayed Ned

killed Ned (seperate act from the betrayal)

forged the Lannister- Tyrell alliance thus leading the Blackwater and the Red Wedding

framed Tyrion again (Joffrey)

framed Sansa

used and killed Lysa

and is now grooming Sansa to be "his"

yeah great guy.

[jons nissa]

LF's lie to Cat about the dagger really doesn't seem that bright in retrospect. He could have very easily been exposed as a malicious trouble causer because of that.

i would say it indicates how he plays the game: by anticipating how his opponent thinks and how they will move. he clearly understand how welcome his words condemning the lannisters would be to cat. he sized her up completely and set her up to make her move against the lannister.

[Chaircat Meow]

i would say it indicates how he plays the game: by anticipating how his opponent thinks and how they will move. he clearly understand how welcome his words condemning the lannisters would be to cat. he sized her up completely and set her up to make her move against the lannister.

LF could have had no idea that would play out in the way it did. If the Starks raised the issue with Robert wouldn't Robert just say, ugh, that's my dagger. Who has been feeding you this rubbish?

[thegreatwhitebear]

@jons nissa: me neither.nah, its not even normal in asoiaf.

Ok so what about that missing lannister who married a babe still at the breast, (f) arya marrying the bastard which if she were real would put her at what 12? Alys karstark was almost forced to marry her old ass uncle I think, asha being married to an old man, basically it seems to me George put more emphasis on the fact once a woman has her period she can be wed to ANYONE regardless of age.

Look im in NO WAY defending pedophilia, I have a daughter and if something like that happened to her let's just say I would be doing this in a different place, all I'm saying is that for a medieval society its not uncommon.