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Risto

[BOOK SPOILERS] Margaery and Joffrey scene

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Joffrey: Could you kill something?

Margaery: I don`t know, Your Grace. Do you think I could?

Joffrey: Yes

Margaery: Would you like to watch me?

Joffrey: Yes

Omg that is awesome didn't even pick up on that

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For a while I wondered if Joffrey was a "degenerate" because he seemed uninterested in Sansa and other women.

But I liked that episode 2 revealed his madness as an attraction to violence. Margaery appeals to him just by talking about killing. The dialogue while they are looking into the mirror is sinister.

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For a while I wondered if Joffrey was a "degenerate" because he seemed uninterested in Sansa and other women.

But I liked that episode 2 revealed his madness as an attraction to violence. The dialogue while they are looking into the mirror is sinister.

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I took it as the Tyrell's playing Joffrey like a fiddle.

First they ask Sansa what Joffrey is "really" like, and shortly after you see Margery roll in and play right along with the "monster" inside joffrey.

Yep.

Marg took him to school without him even realizing it - playing on his inability to play The Game, show him who (he believes) to be in power while gathering more info on him and making him feel superior.

The thing I found very interesting is that with what is going on (maybe specifically in the US) regarding the status of homosexuality, marriage etc that they would be that blatant about his feelings on it. I get it's fiction, but all that needs to happen is have that scene be taken out of the context and there is a shitstorm a brewing.

I get completely WHY they did it - for the Tyrells it is just another reason to get rid of him, but from a real world perception stand point they could have done that differently.

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I suppose Joffrey saying that he is in favour of punishing "such perversities" (the ones Loras shares very much), was meant to be shown as sealing his... cup :pirate:

Yes, I totally agree. Marg very much knows Loras is gay and will possibly have other relationships with men in the future. She also loves her brother very much and doesn't seem to care in the slightest what his sexual orientation is. Making it punishable by death, along with his other general craziness and cruelty, sealed it for the Tyrells.

Also, this was my favorite scene of the episode. Marg played him perfectly.

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I rewatched the scene and this was what Margaery said "Except one night, after far too much wine, he suggested something that sounded very painful and could not possibly result in children"

to wich joffery replies:

"He was a known degenerate, i have considered making his perversions punishable by death"

to wich margaery replies

"As is your right, you must do whatever you need to do, you are the King,"

So margaery never suggested backdooring with Renly, neither did she imply that she would allow joffery to do it.

Margery has you fooled the way she has Joffrey fooled. She was rewriting history to get on her king's good side. In reality, she definitely suggested "turning over and pretending" she was Loras for Renly in bed. But I don't think Margery is going to mention that little detail to Joffrey, given that he seems to want to punish gay people--including her beloved brother--with execution.

I was shocked by her ambition and callousness when she seemed to support Joffrey's right to outlaw homosexuality, until I had to remind myself that it was just an act to ingratiate herself with the "vicious idiot" king before her and her grandmother finally seal his fate.

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For a while I wondered if Joffrey was a "degenerate" because he seemed uninterested in Sansa and other women.

But I liked that episode 2 revealed his madness as an attraction to violence. Margaery appeals to him just by talking about killing. The dialogue while they are looking into the mirror is sinister.

Yep. Violence is what turns him on. I liked the scene because it showed what a player Margaery is....things start out a little rough, Joff is in one of his petulant moods....but she plays him totally, subdues him and by the end, she has won him over and of course has seen now with her own eyes what a complete freak he is.

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Never really like Margaery last season but now that she's been given a chance to do some more I think she's certainly a lot more interesting. Joffrey is not as one note in the show and I'm sure that's because of Gleason

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Margery has you fooled the way she has Joffrey fooled. She was rewriting history to get on her king's good side. In reality, she definitely suggested "turning over and pretending" she was Loras for Renly in bed. But I don't think Margery is going to mention that little detail to Joffrey, given that he seems to want to punish gay people--including her beloved brother--with execution.

I was shocked by her ambition and callousness when she seemed to support Joffrey's right to outlaw homosexuality, until I had to remind myself that it was just an act to ingratiate herself with the "vicious idiot" king before her and her grandmother finally seal his fate.

I think in that earlier scene with Renly, Margaery was expecting him to attempt to impregnate her from behind, rather than expecting him to do what he does with Loras.

I agree that, given how close she is to Loras, threatening to kill homosexuals would be one more reason to seal Joffrey's fate.

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Yep. Violence is what turns him on. I liked the scene because it showed what a player Margaery is....things start out a little rough, Joff is in one of his petulant moods....but she plays him totally, subdues him and by the end, she has won him over and of course has seen now with her own eyes what a complete freak he is.

This and the fact that Sansa had JUST confirmed he was a monster and Marg didn't hesitate to go own him. True player skills!

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This scene was beautiful on so many level. I would concetrate now on 3 moments

1. `Something that sounded very painful and couldnt possibly result in children`

This was interesting, the Oxford dictionary got the new definition of anal sex.

2. `I`ve considered making his perversion punishable by death`

Look at her face. She knows her brother is a gay, and it seems everyone at court knows it (or at least that`s what Jaime said). And then she pulled for seduction. This was masterfully played.

3. `You must do whatever you need to do. You are the King`

Funny, how here we can draw a beautiful parallel between Anne Boleyn`s character from The Tudors and Margaery. Since both of on-screen characters were played by Natalie Dormer, there is so much forshadowing this season`s conflict between Cersei and Margaery. Just like Anne, who `opened` King`s eyes and made him understand he actually can do whatever he wants (I think it was cardinal Wolsey or Thomas Moore who said that they(Boleyns, Suffolk and Norfok) had shown King his true power and now he`s uncontrolable). This works here beautifully. Margaery is playing with him so well, allowing him to see that he can do everything, playing on his ego and ambition. And Cersei is here Catholic faith and Catherine of Aragaon who had ways to subdue Henry. I have to say that with this episode, the season 3 looks quite promising.

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I figured she was just testing on how cruel/monstrous he really was after the whole conversation with Sansa.

The way Joffrey says Yes, reminds me of the Mad King getting aroused by burning people alive. Joffrey seems gets aroused by killing. The way he looks at Marg at that moment...

Jack Gleeson is an awesome actor.

But the foreshadowing part, you might be right about that.

And making being gay

punishable by death scared the hell out off me. This just gives the Tyrells one more reason to get rid of Joffrey.

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For a while I wondered if Joffrey was a "degenerate" because he seemed uninterested in Sansa and other women.

But I liked that episode 2 revealed his madness as an attraction to violence. Margaery appeals to him just by talking about killing. The dialogue while they are looking into the mirror is sinister.

An attraction to very specific kinds of violence (misogynistic, controlling violence.) He ran away from battle at Blackwater.

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I don't think that it could be clearer that Margaery is playing up a role that is calculated to get into Joffrey's good graces and that paints her as a potential accomplice, which is far preferable to being what Sansa was, a victim. She's playing him. There's more than a hint of direct attempted seduction in the scene, but Joffrey doesn't bite (he's completely uninterested in sex for its own sake) and so she adjusts.

It's a particular aspect of her character that the writers are obviously pushing very hard. She's fearless, and draws that fearlessness from a confidence in her ability to project whatever her audience wants to see. That was as true with the orphanage scene as it was with her scene with Joffrey. Joffrey was petrified of getting out of his palanquin in Flea Bottom, just as Sansa was petrified of being around Joffrey. Margaery can do either, and so far hasn't blinked. She's a player for real.

I also picked up on the potential PW foreshadowing. After this scene I'll be surprised if they don't reveal that Margaery slips the poison in the goblet.

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An attraction to very specific kinds of violence (misogynistic, controlling violence.) He ran away from battle at Blackwater.

It's an attraction to violence in which he is specifically in control. The second he loses that control (as he has shown over and over), his cowardice takes over. It's a very different sort of sadism than that of, say, The Hound.

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It's a particular aspect of her character that the writers are obviously pushing very hard. She's fearless, and draws that fearlessness from a confidence in her ability to project whatever her audience wants to see. That was as true with the orphanage scene as it was with her scene with Joffrey. Joffrey was petrified of getting out of his palanquin in Flea Bottom, just as Sansa was petrified of being around Joffrey. Margaery can do either, and so far hasn't blinked. She's a player for real.

Further more, never forget she isn`t Sansa. She has full power of her family behind her to protect her and that makes her just like book Margaery fearless

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Further more, never forget she isn`t Sansa. She has full power of her family behind her to protect her and that makes her just like book Margaery fearless

Well, she's in a better spot than Sansa in S2 for certain, but "the full power of her family" is still a finite thing, which makes her situation precarious. Their betrothal is the lynchpin of the Tully/Lannister alliance and so, if she played Joffrey wrong, she still might find herself in a position of Joffrey abusing her and of her not having much she can do to prevent it.

The Tyrells are plotting the PW specifically because of that precariousness; because they can see that Joffrey can't truly be controlled and because they know that Joffrey+Margaery+Loras is a recipe for Kingslayer Stew.

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Not enough Joffrey scenes !! My only complaint.

I love how the sociopath king arc is crossed with the typical teenager boy wanting get out of his mother's influence (teenager Robb, anyone ?)

- He is irritated by his mother, but hasn't a direct reason to talk badly to her, so diverts his mood to the tailor.

- He does not want to confide his feelings to his mom

- He does not want her to touch him

- He does not want her advice

- Manages to humiliate her indirectly (shows contempt for women)

And Margaery owns him. (i didn't like her last season, but now !! she's awesome).

She is pairing up with him like they are both natural born killers, and he totally buys it. She's better at playing the game of thrones than anyone else in KL (close call with LF though)

He isn't so much misogynistic (just knows how to enrage his mother), but a true 100% sadistic.

That bit about killing gays was him trying to play her, threatening her family like he did with Sansa, but she didn't take the bait. If she had protested at all, she would have given him a weak spot to dig in.

The actor should get an award, he nails the role.

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