Must Tywin be poisoned?

[BloodyGoatHoat]

After spending a few weeks on these boards, I've noticed that many people seem to think that Tywin was poisoned. I must admit, I didn't pick up on this during my first read through. It seems that there are two camps: those who think Varys poisoned Tywin, and those who think Oberyn poisoned Tywin. I honestly don't care who did it. What I want to know is if he must have been poisoned. Is this one of that "this has to happen" theories like R+L=J? Or is this just a strongly supported theory. Please cite evidence when needed, but I'd prefer if this didn't become a Varys vs. Oberyn poison thread. I simply want to know if it is possible that Tywin was not poisoned.

[The Mountain That Posts]

It's pretty much factual that The Red Viper poisoned Tywin.

Anyone who says otherwise, or that it was someone other than The Viper, is wrong.

I'll edit this post with sources later on.

[Syphon the Sanitator]

Wait...Tywin? Are we talking the same Tywin that was shot with a bolt fired from a crossbow by his son, Tyrion?

[armidil0]

I feel like it's a pretty pointless topic to get angry or frustrated with. Tywin got shot with a crossbow. So the poison doesn't matter. Is it a neat little thing? Sure. But who really cares if it was Oberyn or not. Really, the whole thing is a moot point.

[kane120]

It is a strongly (depending on who is interpreting the evidence) supported theory.

I only have the e-books on my iPhone, so I cannot cite page numbers, but

1. Oberyn is known to be very knowledgeable and versed in poison craft.

2. Oberyn states to Tyrion in his cell that if not for him Oberyn might have taken the blame for Joff's death. He also states to Tyrion that Tywin may not live forever, in a very eerie way according to Tryion.

3. Pycelle states on numerous occasions, after being chastised by Cersei that he is unable to counteract the decay/smell of Tywin's corpse with his 'normal' practices for dealing with bodies lying in state.

4. The poison used - Widows Blood - is said to shut down the bowels until one drowns in his own poisons. Hence why Tywin shat when he died, he couldn't defecate when he was alive.

5. Oberyn has a grudge against Tywin, because he knows he gave the order to kill his sister and her children.

6. there is so much more to list and it has been done much better than I can so I'll just link you here:

I am of the opinion that there is STRONG evidence (given how GRRM leaves clues) that Oberyn did poison Tywin. But must he have been poisoned? I guess not. But it makes the story much more interesting.

[Mad Madam Mim]

Tywin is very much dead so unless they are planning on bringing out the GOT version of Cluedo, it doesn't really matter and is just one of those nuggets GRRM tossed in for giggles.

[Woftis]

It's pretty much factual that The Red Viper poisoned Tywin.

Anyone who says otherwise, or that it was someone other than The Viper, is wrong.

I'll edit this post with sources later on.

I'm all for the theory, but this is a pretty big leap.

[Pod The Impaler]

I don't think it is certain Tywin was poisoned.

I think the only thing that killed him was the arrow in his guts.

[Syphon the Sanitator]

A bolt, or a quarrel, Pod ;)

So, anyway, as long as I'm wrong according to the Mountain that Posts, I'm going to demand some actual evidence.

[LyannaStargaryen]

I don't think it is certain Tywin was poisoned.

I think the only thing that killed him was the arrow in his guts.

I think it is highly likely that Oberyn poisoned Tywin, but it isn't definite in the text (and I doubt it will be explicitly named by GRRM because it wouldn't serve any purpose). I think it'll be like the Rat King/Frey pies thing: readers pick up on it and can debate it, but don't think it will resurface in later books.

So IMO, Oberyn was slowly killing Tywin, but Tyrion's crossbow was quicker and did the job.

And I don't see Varys being involved further than breaking Tyrion out: he was fine with Tyrion killing Tywin, obviously since he didn't dissuade him too much, but I don't think he masterminded the poisoning and the crossbow.

[Gannicus]

I don't think it matters tbh.

[HouseHarrison]

Both Tywin and Oberyn are dead. Not much point in pursuing this plot much further.

[BloodyGoatHoat]

Both Tywin and Oberyn are dead. Not much point in pursuing this plot much further.

By that logic, it is irrelevant what went on between Rhaegar and Lyanna. I don't think many people would agree with that.

[Light a wight tonight]

I think it's a pretty good possibility. The thing that pushed me over to this view is the unnaturally fast decay of the body. The other stuff could as easily be red herrings.

If it's true, it's a delicious irony that Oberyn lost his life to take out Gregor and Tywin just to have Gregor (probably) be resuscitated and Tywin killed before the poison had a chance to complete its work. Effectively he's oh for two. His fault for using slow-acting poisons. Doesn't pay to be too clever.

[Ser Greg of House House]

Could the stink in Tywin's corpse in his funeral be further indication of his poisoning? I mean, if that poison makes the guy accumulate poop in his bowels and Tyrion's arrow messed with it... It could be difficult to clean the whole thing.

[Dr. Pepper]

By that logic, it is irrelevant what went on between Rhaegar and Lyanna. I don't think many people would agree with that.

But Jon is still alive, and who Jon is was shaped by Ned and was very much because of R+L=J.

I do think Tywin was poisoned but I don't think it's hugely important. The important thing is Tywin was dead no matter what - whether via quarrel or poison. It's certainly one of those very interesting easter eggs in the books, something one wouldn't really catch on first read. Depending on if one is on the Varys or Oberyn fence, it also offers a bit of insight. If Varys did it, it shows how he is setting things up for his own ends. If Oberyn did it, it shows how Dorne is acting as 'snakes in the grass'.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

But Jon is still alive, and who Jon is was shaped by Ned and was very much because of R+L=J.

I do think Tywin was poisoned but I don't think it's hugely important. The important thing is Tywin was dead no matter what - whether via quarrel or poison. It's certainly one of those very interesting easter eggs in the books, something one wouldn't really catch on first read. Depending on if one is on the Varys or Oberyn fence, it also offers a bit of insight. If Varys did it, it shows how he is setting things up for his own ends. If Oberyn did it, it shows how Dorne is acting as 'snakes in the grass'.

This, basically. I happen to think Tywin was poisoned but at this point the readers can draw whatever conclusion they want and it still has the same outcome, i.e. Tywin's dead.

[Zman1863]

I think the evidence in the book implies that Tywin would have been killed if he hadn't been already. But whether he already was in the process of being poisoned is anyone's guess. I suppose the best evidence is that Tyrion found him in the privy? Perhaps he was already ill. But as others have said, it is irrelevant. It was the crossbow that killed Tywin. Oberyn's hints to Tyrion prior to the trial by battle were likely meant to show that Tyrion remains essentially loyal to his family until the Tysha revelation that drives him into a rage and the Shae revelation that just accentuates it. Whether Tywin was being poisoned is meaningless and to me that's the best reason why I think that it didn't happen.

[andrew_]

I really don't understand the point of this thread. Why does it matter if he was poisoned or not? (Which imo is absolutely crackpot to think that he is as there is no definitive proof that he was and if he was it didnt affect the plot whatsoever). Tywin died because Tyrion killed him with a crossbow. This is just another case of people looking too far into unimportant details.

Give me one shred of evidence that he was poisoned please.

[Sevumar]

There's no strong evidence that Tywin was poisoned by Oberyn. From dialogue between Doran and Oberyn, we know that the two of them worked closely together in order to secure their vengeance, but there's also a sense of fatalism to Oberyn's words and actions in King's Landing. He wanted public acknowledgement of Tywin Lannister's role in the murder of Elia and her children and he was prepared to sacrifice himself to obtain it.

None of that fits with poisoning Tywin. In fact, if Tywin died without acknowledging that he was behind the murders of Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon, Oberyn would've failed.