Must Tywin be poisoned?

[IRON BANK]

After spending a few weeks on these boards, I've noticed that many people seem to think that Tywin was poisoned. I must admit, I didn't pick up on this during my first read through. It seems that there are two camps: those who think Varys poisoned Tywin, and those who think Oberyn poisoned Tywin. I honestly don't care who did it. What I want to know is if he must have been poisoned. Is this one of that "this has to happen" theories like R+L=J? Or is this just a strongly supported theory. Please cite evidence when needed, but I'd prefer if this didn't become a Varys vs. Oberyn poison thread. I simply want to know if it is possible that Tywin was not poisoned.

Tywin could have been poisoned, But Tyrions cross bow to the groin or stomach killed him thats a fact.

re: After reading more threads on this you've convinced me damn good writing, and detail.

[IRON BANK]

I really don't understand the point of this thread. Why does it matter if he was poisoned or not? (Which imo is absolutely crackpot to think that he is as there is no definitive proof that he was and if he was it didnt affect the plot whatsoever). Tywin died because Tyrion killed him with a crossbow. This is just another case of people looking too far into unimportant details.

Give me one shred of evidence that he was poisoned please.

Exactly they talk about the decay of his body in the sept, I think this is more foreshadowing of a man who thought he was larger than life but died, naked, exposed with a whore in his bed, and a terrible rot for all to smell, killed by a monster of a son.(If Tywin was that sick he would'nt have been having sex, 2nd it was several days tyrion was in the black cells which doesn't fit with the time line of the poisoned suggestively used.)

re: After reading more threads on this you've convinced me damn good writing, and detail.

[Grip]

I am one of those that thinks that Oberyn might have poisoned Tywin, though I did not pick up on this when first reading the books. I like this theory but as others have said, in the end it doesnt really matter as it was Tyrion who ultimately killed him.

[Young Nan]

I really don't understand the point of this thread. Why does it matter if he was poisoned or not? (Which imo is absolutely crackpot to think that he is as there is no definitive proof that he was and if he was it didnt affect the plot whatsoever). Tywin died because Tyrion killed him with a crossbow. This is just another case of people looking too far into unimportant details.

Give me one shred of evidence that he was poisoned please.

I agree. I have read all of the "evidence" and it is flimsy at best. So Tywin ate breakfast with the Viper, the Viper made a comment about Tywin dying eventually, and Tywin was sitting on the privy when he died, and then had a stinky corpse.

People take shits, and rotting corpses smell bad. It would add absolutely nothing to the plot for him to have been poisoned. I totally think this is a case of people overanalyzing the writing and finding conspiracies in every little detail.

[Revae]

Hence why Tywin shat when he died, he couldn't defecate when he was alive.

Not really.

People shit when they die because that's how the human body responds to (usually sudden) death.

Why else do you think everyone is quoted as saying war zones smell like shit? Plus he was shot in the bowels.

[corbon]

There's no strong evidence that Tywin was poisoned by Oberyn. From dialogue between Doran and Oberyn, we know that the two of them worked closely together in order to secure their vengeance, but there's also a sense of fatalism to Oberyn's words and actions in King's Landing. He wanted public acknowledgement of Tywin Lannister's role in the murder of Elia and her children and he was prepared to sacrifice himself to obtain it.

None of that fits with poisoning Tywin. In fact, if Tywin died without acknowledging that he was behind the murders of Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon, Oberyn would've failed.

This.

there is some evidence which is suggestive. It is nowhere near as strong as people make out. Tywin may have been poisoned, but need not have been for everything to work and fit, thus far at least.

[Kienn]

He may have been poisoned, but people insist on it quite a bit too much... I'm sure they will be ecstatic and proud of themselves if it is ever confirmed though, or if it's never disproved.

Just watch out if it IS disproved though... wouldn't want to be around one of them then.

[The Mountain That Posts]

Viper is known to be excellent with poisons.

VIper promises vengeance and very clearly knows Tywin is at blame (reinforced by Doran's "forcing at Tywin's downfall for a decade" comment)

Viper eating breakfast with Mace and Kevan (this is a particularly great scene because Jaime distracts us by pointing out "the viper and mace tyrell eating together? OH LOL" and doesn't even mention Tywin a second time, so you almsot forget that Tywin and the Viper are together. Brilliant writing)

Pycelle describing a poison where the bowels clog and it causes your insides to rot.

Tywin both on the toilet and being "where Tyrion expected him to be".

Tywin being with a whore (it's not unheard of for someone who expects to be dead soon to seek comfort in the gender they're attracted to, it's actually very common)

Tywin's rot.

The fact the Rev Viper is too smart to go into the battle with the Mountain without knowing that AT LEAST he won against Tywin first.

The significance of Tywin's death is actually very twofold, IMO. I can't think of a more beautiful way TO have handled his death. On one hand, Tyrion NEEDED to kill him. But on the other hand, not letting the Martells get their poetic justice would've just been... sadly done, in the context of the books.

For anyone who needs more convincing, check out the very first "Wow, I never noticed that" thread. The first ten or so pages(if I remember correct, pages 7-9 specifically) feature LOADS of amazing things most people never got onto. Like Euron capturing the warlocks after Dany, Frey pies, etc. Anyway, there was a HUGE in depth look at Tywin's death with quotes and for-against conversations. It's worth the read.

[Sir Noone Sword Of The Day]

I'm pretty sure everyone shits themselves when they die... and like a lot of people are saying does it really matter? Maybe cercei poisoned Ned Stark or was planning to have him die on the way to the Nights Watch (like falling of the ship), so whatever could have happened didn't just like in so many other circumstances.

[andrew_]

Viper is known to be excellent with poisons.

VIper promises vengeance and very clearly knows Tywin is at blame (reinforced by Doran's "forcing at Tywin's downfall for a decade" comment)

Viper eating breakfast with Mace and Kevan (this is a particularly great scene because Jaime distracts us by pointing out "the viper and mace tyrell eating together? OH LOL" and doesn't even mention Tywin a second time, so you almsot forget that Tywin and the Viper are together. Brilliant writing)

Pycelle describing a poison where the bowels clog and it causes your insides to rot.

Tywin both on the toilet and being "where Tyrion expected him to be".

Tywin being with a whore (it's not unheard of for someone who expects to be dead soon to seek comfort in the gender they're attracted to, it's actually very common)

Tywin's rot.

The fact the Rev Viper is too smart to go into the battle with the Mountain without knowing that AT LEAST he won against Tywin first.

The significance of Tywin's death is actually very twofold, IMO. I can't think of a more beautiful way TO have handled his death. On one hand, Tyrion NEEDED to kill him. But on the other hand, not letting the Martells get their poetic justice would've just been... sadly done, in the context of the books.

For anyone who needs more convincing, check out the very first "Wow, I never noticed that" thread. The first ten or so pages(if I remember correct, pages 7-9 specifically) feature LOADS of amazing things most people never got onto. Like Euron capturing the warlocks after Dany, Frey pies, etc. Anyway, there was a HUGE in depth look at Tywin's death with quotes and for-against conversations. It's worth the read.

All the so called "evidence" you provided proves absolutely nothing. I think you just need to look at the facts and accept you are over analyzing a situation in which we are told, and we see what happens (unlike R+L=JS which is a more plausible theory). We are also two books past that event, if there was some mystery surrounding that event, I'm sure we would've found out by now. GRRM doesn't hold his cards secret for too long in scenarios which arise during the events of the book.

[danm_999]

It does explain Tywin's extremely stinky corpse.

[andrew_]

It does explain Tywin's extremely stinky corpse.

Nah it doesn't, I'm no expert but when I corpse is left out to deteriorate,I'm guessing its gonna start to smell. GRRM just emphasizes the smell of the corpse due to Tywin almost "un-human" reputation so to speak, when it comes to personal matters (i.e his private life). Also because Tywin was shot in the bowels and shits himself (I know they would've cleaned him up) its gonna add to the smell.

Is there such thing as a corpse that won't stink after a couple of days?

[IRON BANK]

Viper is known to be excellent with poisons.

VIper promises vengeance and very clearly knows Tywin is at blame (reinforced by Doran's "forcing at Tywin's downfall for a decade" comment)

Viper eating breakfast with Mace and Kevan (this is a particularly great scene because Jaime distracts us by pointing out "the viper and mace tyrell eating together? OH LOL" and doesn't even mention Tywin a second time, so you almsot forget that Tywin and the Viper are together. Brilliant writing)

Pycelle describing a poison where the bowels clog and it causes your insides to rot.

Tywin both on the toilet and being "where Tyrion expected him to be".

Tywin being with a whore (it's not unheard of for someone who expects to be dead soon to seek comfort in the gender they're attracted to, it's actually very common)

Tywin's rot.

The fact the Rev Viper is too smart to go into the battle with the Mountain without knowing that AT LEAST he won against Tywin first.

The significance of Tywin's death is actually very twofold, IMO. I can't think of a more beautiful way TO have handled his death. On one hand, Tyrion NEEDED to kill him. But on the other hand, not letting the Martells get their poetic justice would've just been... sadly done, in the context of the books.

For anyone who needs more convincing, check out the very first "Wow, I never noticed that" thread. The first ten or so pages(if I remember correct, pages 7-9 specifically) feature LOADS of amazing things most people never got onto. Like Euron capturing the warlocks after Dany, Frey pies, etc. Anyway, there was a HUGE in depth look at Tywin's death with quotes and for-against conversations. It's worth the read.

After reading more threads on this you've convinced me damn good writing, and detail.

[A wilding]

Personally I have never understood the idea that this theory is "pretty much factual". Psychologically it is all wrong.

Oberyn is an utterly self-confident man. He planned to destroy Tywin, not surreptitiously poison him in some way that might easily be taken as death by natural causes. I am sure he never doubted that he would beat Gregor ("You are going to fight that?"/"I am going to kill that."). Remember he fought Gregor not just to kill him, but also to wring a humiliating public confession out of him that would in turn implicate Tywin.

Similarly Tywin is not a man to seek comfort with a whore if he knew he was about to die. He would be busy securing his legacy, appointing a successor, issuing instructions and generally trying to go on controlling House Lannister and Westeros from beyond the grave.

Also the detail of the theory is weak when you look at it closely. For example the idea that Oberyn and Tywin were eating together comes solely from a flippant comment about them breaking bread made by Jaime in understandable surprise at Oberyn, Mace and Tywin all sitting down together amicably.

Though I do agree that there are some indicators that Tywin might have been poisoned; i.e. him being on the privy and then his corpse smelling. That does not mean Oberyn did it though, I personally would think Varys a much more plausible candidate.

[therealbando]

I am one of those who believe that Oberyn did poison Tywin. True, it was Tyrion who delivered the fatal blow, but I think that if Oberyn did poison Tywin, the purpose of this would be to show us that the Martells mean business, otherwise the whole poisoning would be meaningless.

[kane120]

Not really.

People shit when they die because that's how the human body responds to (usually sudden) death.

Why else do you think everyone is quoted as saying war zones smell like shit? Plus he was shot in the bowels.

Tywin was on the toilet for a long time, (long enough for Tyrion to talk to and kill Shae, then find a crossbow, then the ammo, then walk down the hall to find him) and still was unable to finish his business. If you were poisoned with something that shut your bowels down, you would not be able to shit, although you may feel the urge. Tywin could not shit, but had been saving a bunch up, hence why he let loose when Tyrion shot him, otherwise there would not be much to let loose when he died.

I will post the link once more, I advise anyone to read it in its entirety.

Just to re-summarize the bigger points, because some are too lazy to read it all:

Oberyn makes some remarks to Tyrion which make Tyrions hair stand up, including: "I came for justice... starting with Gregor Clegane, but not i think, ending there..." It is known that Oberyn lacks the patience of Doran.

Oberyn is not a stupid man, and had been planning for some sort of revenge for a long time. There is this statement by Price Doran during Dance, I believe: "

"I am not blind, nor deaf. I know that you all believe me weak, frightened, feeble. Your father knew me better. Oberyn was ever the viper. Deadly, Dangerous, Unpredictable. No man dared tread on him. I was the grass. Pleasant, complaisant, sweet-smelling, swaying with every breeze. Who fears to walk upon the grass? But it is the grass that hides the viper from his enemies and shelters him until he strikes. Your father and I worked more closely then you know....... "

Oberyn clearly has knowledge of poisons of all types and is generally regarded as an expert in those matters; from the wiki: "Oberyn had traveled extensively in the Free Cities, where he learned much about poisons and perhaps even darker arts." He knows how good of a fighter The Mountain is, and used poison on his spear so that in the event of his defeat, he would still get his justice from beyond the grave. Why is it so hard to believe that he used the same strategy with Tywin?

Tywin's decomposition was not normal, Pycelle could not do anything about it, even after the silent sisters (experts on preparing corpses for funeral services) removed the bowels and stuffing his corpse full of herbs etc. Cersei repeatedly asks Pycelle why he can't do anything about it, because the stench was so bad, and he is genuinely confused by it. If it was normal to have a body lying in state that stunk that bad, no one would have remarked upon it. Also, Tywin can't have been the first person shot in the bowels, that injury would have been seen and dealt with for ages by that point. Joff and Robert both had similar funerals, yet no one remarked upon the stink for them. In fact, King Bob died of almost the same wound, maybe even more severe, yet there were no remarks about his body decaying unnaturally. GRRM went out of his way to drive home the fact that the decomposition was not normal, which points to poison.

Tyrion remarks upon Tywins unwell appearance during his trial, after Shae speaks. I do not have the page number, but its something like "his face is so dark, he (Tyrion) wondered if he did not drink a cup of poisoned wine."

Also during the trial, Pycelle mentions a whole list of poisons, and the only one to be elaborated upon was widow's blood, IIRC. If you are familiar with GRRM's writing style and the way he foreshadows, along with the irony/poetic justice of it all, then it all lends credence to the theory.

Is it possible that it did not happen according to the theory? - yes, does it change anything? No, it just adds to the complexity of the story. But as I said, if you are familiar with GRRM's style, then it is ample evidence.

As for Vary's and the Martell's involvement, you are free to speculate, but I feel that the OP (link) did some great work in teasing this out and there are more than a few well respected OG's on this forum who agree with it FWIW. I feel it is completely plausible, compared with the evidence for other well accepted theories listed on this forum.

[Young Nan]

It's absolutely pointless, from a literary standpoint, yo have a secret mystery poisoning that is never revealed and never amounts to anything because the poisoned character dies by other means.

all of the "evidence" people keep swearing proves it without a doubt isn't evidence at all, its a bunch of assumptions mounted upon a bunch of other assumptions, none of which are ever substantiated. sure its plausible, but "plausible" doesn't mean "absolutely true without a doubt"

tywin was taking a shit (people do that a lot) and his corpse smelled while rotting ( something that commonly happens to rotting corpses)

[JLE]

There's another possibility. If Tyrion knew for definite that Tywin would be in the privy... was it possibly because Tyrion had given Tywin, at the wedding feast, the same harmless but debilitating laxative that he had previously given Cersei? And not as a murder attempt, but as a petty revenge against his father for slighting him over the inheritance of Casterly Rock and the credit for the Battle of the Blackwater?

I can imagine Tyrion making his dad sick just for, erm, shits and giggles, rather more easily than I can imagine Oberyn managing to get a poison into Tywin's dish.

[Ser Greg of House House]

It's absolutely pointless, from a literary standpoint, yo have a secret mystery poisoning that is never revealed and never amounts to anything because the poisoned character dies by other means.

all of the "evidence" people keep swearing proves it without a doubt isn't evidence at all, its a bunch of assumptions mounted upon a bunch of other assumptions, none of which are ever substantiated. sure its plausible, but "plausible" doesn't mean "absolutely true without a doubt"

tywin was taking a shit (people do that a lot) and his corpse smelled while rotting ( something that commonly happens to rotting corpses)

It makes sense if he was pointing towards Varys. Foreshadowing.

[Waylin Stark]

I think Oberyn did poison Tywin, there's lots of proof that he did.

But it doesn't matter, he's dead.