[BOOK SPOILERS] Perverse sense of justice

[Gannicus]

On Theon

I can see both sides of the coin in terms of turning his cloak. But his behavior during his brief occupation of Winterfell was pathetic. I was sympathetic to his plight on the Iron Islands, but he's getting his right now.

[lostinwesteros]

Jaime lost the hand that pushed Bran out the window.

Theon, well, the 'interrogation' he has had so far could be argued to be 'par for the course'. What comes next is not of course.

Actually, wasn't it the left hand that pushed Jaime out the window? Or, you might not have meant it that literally. :dunno:

As to justice, I'm not sure any of us can really say. We never know another person completely, and I suspect that each of us has in some way escaped justice that could or 'should' have been meted out for ourselves. Perhaps that's too serious a point I've made. But, at the very least, I agree with many who have said that GRRM doesn't create any completely "good" or "evil" characters. Each is a combination of both and is experiencing the process of good and not so good decisions in their lives, just as we do. Sometimes consequences are immediate, sometimes not - sometimes they're obvious, sometimes subtle - sometimes stern and unrelenting, sometimes merciful. Cheez, I sound like I'm preaching a sermon.

But, for example, I had a hard time forgiving Sansa for running to Cercei and betraying her Father when he announced they were going to leave KL, but could I say that it was justice that was at work when she suffered what she did at the hands of Joffrey, that it 'served her right'? I don't think so.

Jaime had been spoiled in many ways for a very long time, but he is now out in the real world and making some better choices (viz. talking about Saphires being mined in Tarth to try to have Brienne spared from rapes). There is also the point that his killing Ayres was in good part sacrificial, and he's allowed others to lable him as a kingslayer nonetheless.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

Actually, wasn't it the left hand that pushed Jaime out the window? Or, you might not have meant it that literally.

Wow.

I did mean that literally. I have always had that image reversed in my mind! I didn't believe what you said until I checked just then. Thank you for the correction!

[Mladen]

Actually, wasn't it the left hand that pushed Jaime out the window? Or, you might not have meant it that literally. :dunno:

Wow.

I did mean that literally. I have always had that image reversed in my mind! I didn't believe what you said until I checked just then. Thank you for the correction!

In the show yes, it was left arm, but in the books it was just an arm.

[Maester Ruin]

Turnocloak is most likely derived from turncoat, which is another word for traitor, and Theon did betrayed Starks. As everyone pointed out, his father`s wish was never to take Winterfell. Theon did it on his own. His father hadn`t told him to burn the children, Theon did it. He did maybe the right thing to obbey his side and shift his allegeance, but that still makes him turncloak. And he was fed with Starks, raised with them, Robb named him practicly his closest advisors. Theon betrayed that trust, and that`s why he is turncloak.

Theon was never a turncloak because his cloak was always marked with the Golden Kraken of House Greyjoy. I feel like i have to stress that in the feudal society, a noble-born man was expected above all to obey and bring glory to his father (and house). Theon was always a Greyjoy, and even if he grew up to be Robbs best friend, the day Robb sent him to Pyke he officially "released" him from his hostage position and turned him over the Balon. I know it was done with mutual, good intentions from both theon and robb regarding the war against the lannister, but none of them expected Balon to do the contrary of what Robb proposed; and instead of aiding the north with the powerful iron fleet, he decided to use it to raid and invade the north. It was a tough decision for Theon, but the laws dictated that he had to obey his father, or he would have been branded a REAL traitor.

Afaik, Balon never said "DO NOT TAKE WINTERFELL WHATEVER YOU DO". He said something like "the north is open for the taking, castles, field and mine will be ours, Winterfell might defy us for a year but what of it - implying that they planned to sooner or later lay siege to Winterfell aswell, contrary to what asha said when she visited theon in wenterfell "(Winterfell is hundreds of miles from the sea, and our power comes from our ships")

balon obviously intended to lay siege on winterfell, why else would he estimate how long the northerners could hold it?

Theon took winterfell because his father did not respect him and thought him weak and loyal to the starks, so naturally, taking winterfell would hit two flies in one hit, both showing his talent for strategy by taking the most fortified castle in the north with just a skeleton cew, and forever distancing him from the starks. I also think the so-called experienced raiders on the sea bitch, in the lust for battle and disrespect for theon, kinda provoked him to do something that drastical to "prove himself". He should of course have realized that he could never hold the Heart of the North alone so early before the major shore invasions had been launched anthe few stark loyalist forces that where left in the north where busy fighting off the coastal raids, but i think he was too eager to prove himself to pay attention to that level of strategy.

I do think Balon was stupid/stubborn and decided to let his lust to constantly belittle and humiliate his sons exploits take the first seat to his common sense (kinda like Tywin regarding Tyrion). Winterfell is one of the best fortified seats in westeros and had he only sent a couple hundred men along with asha, winterfell could have repelled Ramsays army while keeping the northern army occupied trying to take back the northern capitol and hence leaving the shores vurnerable. Taking winterfell should also have proved to Balon that Theon was loyal to his family and that he had forever forsaken the Starks, but i dont think any efforts from Theon could have pleased Balon at this point, he was obviously unjustlu projecting his own faliures and the humility of being forced to send away his last son to be raised a prisoner on to Theon.

TLDR: Theon never betrayed Robb because he never swore an official oath or vow to robbs cause, and feudal law and tradition forced him to obey his father. He was the last male heir of Balon and was therefor expected to serve him by law and tradition.

He did however regretfully betray a good friends trust, but Robb should have listened to Cat before releasing Theon to go home and bring a proposal to a man Robb had never met and had no idea of which side he was on, while at the same time giving back the hostage that had kept Balon passive for the last decades.

Blood is thicker than water, Theon did betray his former best friends wishes, but he did what was expected of him as the son of a powerful Lord. And it was pretty clear that it was not an easy decision for Theon (the scene where he burns the warning letter etc)

Other crimes like killing the innocent farmer orphans are of course inexcusable (like most things that happened in feudal warfare), but still "understandable" since his surrounding group of Ironmen/Ramsay were constantly pushing him over the edge by telling him how an ironborn is expected to act, wich Theon never really knew before he was introduced to his crew at the sea bitch. as a young man who had spent most of his life as a prisoner in another house and after being cursed and ridiculed by his own father upon his return, Theon was desperate to prove himself and gain the respect from pretty much anyone.

[Maester Ruin]

I would like to point out that Robbs decision to send Theon to Pyke was probably the main reason he lost the war, perhaps on par with catelyn setting jamie free but the thing with theon was definitely the begining of his decline. Even his marriage to Westerling/Talisa, another major blunder, was a direct consequence of the ironborn taking winterfell and allegadly killing his brothers, wich made him lose his composure.

He did not know Balon or what kind of man he was, so he should have listened to cat and first of all consider how much Balon probably hated the north for killing two of his sons and holding his last male heir a prisoner... Robb should have realized that he was not a potential ally just like i did the first time when i read of Robb and Theons little proposal to ol' lord Greyjoy. It was a well known fact at the time that Balon loathed the starks, as Tyrion Lannister pointed out several chapters/episodes before. The Starks should have realized that leaving the north vulnerable with almost all its manpower marching south would be an ideal situation for Balon to finally plot his revenge, the only thing that could really prevent this was the fact that Theon was still practicly a "hostage" among the Stark Host, so keeping him as far away from balons reach as possible would definitely be a good idea. Had he not impulsivley sent theon to the iron islands, he would not have found himself cut off from the north, with his men and army losing more morale with each day at the thoughts of ironborn men wreaking havoc amonst their homes and raping innocent northern women or possibly their wives. and most of all, ramsay would not have been able to spread chaos in the north and burn winterfell to the ground and pin it on the ironborn (wich also damaged the morale of Robbs host greatly)

The turmoil with the ironborn invasion was definitely a huge benefactor for the Boltons since Ramsays force pretty much had uncontested reign over the north mainland while Robbs army was stuck away in the riverlands and westerlands, and it might have been the point that sparked Roose's thoughts about ending the Starks rule of the north permanently.

[shiola]

People think what's being done to Theon and Jaime is justice? Seven hells.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Theon pledges his sword to Robb Stark, the King of the North. I don't know if you want him to sign a contract before calling him a turncloak but debating semantics is just a waste of time in general. He left on Robb's side and then returned against him. It's that simple.

That being said torture isn't justice. Theon obviously gets much much worse than he deserved, since Robb would just have beheaded him.

[Mulled Wino]

I would like to point out that Robbs decision to send Theon to Pyke was probably the main reason he lost the war, perhaps on par with catelyn setting jamie free but the thing with theon was definitely the begining of his decline. Even his marriage to Westerling/Talisa, another major blunder, was a direct consequence of the ironborn taking winterfell and allegadly killing his brothers, wich made him lose his composure.

He did not know Balon or what kind of man he was, so he should have listened to cat and first of all consider how much Balon probably hated the north for killing two of his sons and holding his last male heir a prisoner... Robb should have realized that he was not a potential ally just like i did the first time when i read of Robb and Theons little proposal to ol' lord Greyjoy. It was a well known fact at the time that Balon loathed the starks, as Tyrion Lannister pointed out several chapters/episodes before. The Starks should have realized that leaving the north vulnerable with almost all its manpower marching south would be an ideal situation for Balon to finally plot his revenge, the only thing that could really prevent this was the fact that Theon was still practicly a "hostage" among the Stark Host, so keeping him as far away from balons reach as possible would definitely be a good idea. Had he not impulsivley sent theon to the iron islands, he would not have found himself cut off from the north, with his men and army losing more morale with each day at the thoughts of ironborn men wreaking havoc amonst their homes and raping innocent northern women or possibly their wives. and most of all, ramsay would not have been able to spread chaos in the north and burn winterfell to the ground and pin it on the ironborn (wich also damaged the morale of Robbs host greatly)

The turmoil with the ironborn invasion was definitely a huge benefactor for the Boltons since Ramsays force pretty much had uncontested reign over the north mainland while Robbs army was stuck away in the riverlands and westerlands, and it might have been the point that sparked Roose's thoughts about ending the Starks rule of the north permanently.

Theon did lay his sword at Robb's feet and pledged fealty to him. You're waaaay off.

[Mladen]

Theon was never a turncloak because his cloak was always marked with the Golden Kraken of House Greyjoy.

Theon never betrayed Robb because he never swore an official oath or vow to robbs cause, and feudal law and tradition forced him to obey his father.

Basically, what you are trying to say is that someone can`t betray someone else unless they are bound by oath or blood. I am sorry, but it doesn`t work that way. So, following this logic, LF hadn`t betrayed Ned? According to feudal law, you are right, a son should do what his father tells him. But that doesn`t change the fact that son can betray others by following his father`s orders. Theon made excuse for himself so he could sleep at night. But he was a turncloak, he betrayed Robb, and killed 2 kids to prove it.

Theon did lay his sword at Robb's feet and pledged fealty to him. You're waaaay off.

Nice and simply said. You are completely right.

[Kasrith]

I agree that whoever says he's getting what he deserves is just going on feelings of S2, hasn't developed the relationships we have over time with the books. Although even they do see a bigger picture (at least my circle of show watching non book friends) for both Jaime and Theon

[TheAwesomeVargoHoat]

I think Jaime got exactly what he deserved. It's a fair punishment, losing his hand for crippling Bran. Bran loses the use of his legs, Jaime loses the use of his sword arm. It's about as fair a punishment as you can get. He took away a kids ability to live his dreams, I think people forget that considering Bran gets new dreams after getting pushed out a window.

As for Theon, he gets far worse, all for just trying to please his father. If he actually killed Bran and Rickon then I can see a little bit of torture being dished out, but he didn't. It wasn't even his idea to kill the millers boys, it was all Ramsay.

Theon gets by far the worst hand dealt in the series. I would love if he's the one who kills Ramsay in the next book, though I don't see him lasting very long.

[Ser Greguh]

Theon did swear an oath to Robb, at least in the show. His father put him in an impossible position, but what followed from that was essentially a conga line of his failures: his insecurity, his drive for glory and his father's respect, and a more-than-substantial sadistic streak. Torture is of course not justice, but if we're taking the Westerosi moral code as the standard here, there's no question that losing his head would be justice. He murdered two completely innocent boys and had their bodies tarred and put on display. Even in the context of warfare, that's beyond the pale. He garners sympathy because he's in a situation that nobody deserves, no matter how heinous their crimes, but my own sympathy is still severely dampened because Theon's crimes are heinous.

Jaime is more complex. If he weren't a valuable hostage, he would have been executed on the spot after confessing to his attemted murder of Bran, and I don't think many people would say it's wasn't justice. Maiming him is cruel, but there have been plenty of societies throughout history that lopped off hands as punishment for petty theft, and Westeros isn't far removed in its moral code from those societies. The cruelty is amplified in Jaime's case because his sword hand is so inexorably tied to his identity. It is more "cruel" to him than it would be to an ordinary person from that perspective, but that's not much of a standard for justice.

[L’Age d’or]

Cannot say it's justice, since the concept is so subjective that makes it very hard to argue upon. That said, Jaime and Theon are experiencing what it's like not to be in charge or the authority. Both did what they did when they had authority over others and now the tables have turned on them.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

People think what's being done to Theon and Jaime is justice? Seven hells.

Jaime yes. Bran maimed for life, Now Jaime maimed for life... and Jaime got the better end of the deal.

Theon - what has happened, arguably yes

- what happens next, of course not

That's what makes Theon's arc so brilliant. You are supposed to think it is somehow 'justified' but then the full impact of what has happened comes out and you have to question yourself. That's the point. He screwed up big time. Any claims that he is 'lilly-white' are unjustifiable.

[Maester Ruin]

Theon did lay his sword at Robb's feet and pledged fealty to him. You're waaaay off.

Pledging individual fealty to someones cause in a war is not the same thing as binding yourself to lifelong servitude (unless theon was lord of pyke at the time, then he could have sworn an oath of fealty that would have lasted for the rest of his life and passed on to his children and their children, but Theon had no authority to do so). howerver, it IS expected of a member of a noble family to spend his entire life in service of his house and family, the only exceptions are those who become maesters or crows, wich is often decided by the Lord father anyhow.

Lets pretend Theon told Balon to fuck off and went back to Robb. (wich is even bigger treason by the laws and morals of Westeros, regardless how much you love how stark, its a fact) Practicly, that would have meant that Theon forsake all inheiratance to the seastone chair and his family in favour of the starks, and since Balon would then no longer value his life (he might hypotheticaly have inprisoned theon himself if he managed to catch him before he left to rejoin Robb). Theon would lose his "hostage" value and Asha and Balon would have gone through with their invasion of the north anyways,

with theon back at robbs side but stripped of all titles and inheritence and basicly serveing as a glorified guard/warrior in the stark army.

The wisest thing Robb and Theon could have done if they wanted to pledge fealty and create an alliance between their houses was to be patient, find ships somewhere else or choose another strategy, and wait until Balon was Dead. Then Theon could have claimed the seastone chair and officialy signed an official alliance between the two families "until the end of time".

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Pledging fealty to someones cause in a war is not the same thing as binding yourself to lifelong servitude (unless theon was lord of pyke at the time, then he could have sworn an oath of fealty that would have lasted for the rest of his life and passed on to his children and their children, but Theon had no authority to do so. howerver, it IS expected of a member of a noble family to spend his entire life in service of his house and family, the only exceptions are those who become maesters or crows, wich is often decided by the Lord father anyhow.

Lets pretend Theon told Balon to fuck off and went back to Robb. Practicly, that would have meant that Theon forsake all inheiratance to the seastone chair and his family in favour of the starks, and since Balon would then no longer value his life (he might hypotheticaly have inprisoned theon himself if he managed to catch him before he left to rejoin Robb). he would lose his "hostage" value and Asha and Balon would have gone through with their invasion of the north anyways,

with theon back at robbs side but stripped of all titles and basicly serveing as an overglorified bodyguard/warrior in the stark army.

The wisest thing Robb and Theon could have done if they wanted to pledge fealty and create an alliance between their houses was to be patient, find ships somewhere else or choose another strategy, and wait until Balon was Dead. Then Theon could have claimed the seastone chair and officialy signed an official alliance between the two families "until the end of time".

So Theon isn't a turncloak because he only swore fealty in a time of war and then betrayed that vow which makes him a...what??

[shiola]

I hold the unpopular opinion that Jaime and Theon have thus far gotten worse than they deserve. Jaime pushed Bran out a window with the intent to kill him, not cripple him. Theon killed the farmer's boys. So if I were an "eye for an eye" type, Jaime deserves the quick death he meant to give Bran, and Theon also deserves a quick death. But motives are more important to me than actions, so there we are.

If I were to judge actions and results rather than motives, I'd say Jaime got a sort of poetic justice. I can appreciate it for that.

But torture is an entirely different beast, and Theon does not deserve what he has gotten nor what is to come.

[Maester Ruin]

It really appeared like Robb was the only noble in westeros who did not know that Balon Greyjoy hated the starks more than any other family in westeros. His father had to take Theon hostage to ensure that Balon would remain peaceful. But Robb thinks Balon would make an excellent ally based soley on the fact that they are both members of the "Rebels and former Rebels against the Iron Throne Club" and that Theon thinks that he will probably be able to convince a father he hardly knows or remembers to join Robbs side - Both of them totally ignoring the past; the fact that they are trying to recruit a man who lost two sons, theons elder brothers, at stark hands, and that Balon was greatly humiliated by being forced to send his only living son away to be kept as a hostage by the starks.

That fact should be enough really, if you had to take this guys son away and give him to the starks as a hostage to ensure that Balon would remain peaceful thowards the north, he should not be considered a suitable ally. and, for the love of god, you should not give him back your hostage when your homelands are more vulnerable than ever to an attack by the Iron Islands.

The entire plan to send Theon to Pyke to negociate an alliance with his father on behalf of house Stark is about as dumb as sending Gregor Clegane to Dorne in order to try to forge an alliance between House Martell and House Lannister to fight house Stark, and its one of the things that qualifies Robb as the most stupid principal lord of westeros, with Mace Tyrell who is lightyears ahead of Robb in wits, politics and diplomancy as a solid number two.

[Dove]

No matter what they did, torture isn't "justice" by any stretch of the definition imo and I always find it weird when people react to these characters with the amount of bloodlust that they do. Especially the degree of torture that Theon's put through. Jaime's mutilation led to him becoming a much better person along with Brienne's help, but people cheering for that is a little strange too.

When you've got characters like Vargo Hoat/Locke, Craster Daughterlover, Ramsay "I Hunt Women Like Animals" Snow, Roose Bolton, Kraznys mo Whatever, Gregor Baby-dasher Clegane, etc. featured do Jaime and Theon really come across as being all that villainous and undeserving of sympathy to people?

I'm really thankful for the friends I regularly watch this show with I guess because no-one's yet to react like that to either of them. I mean, we laughed at the credits but it was one of those shocked laughs, not a "HAHA yeah he done got what he deserved" thing.