Growing strong - fans not so young, come out of your closets!

[Ser Creighton]

What a fabulous idea for a thread. and while I am not on the wrong side of 50 but close. I'm 46. I agree that interpretation of acts, characters and themes will vary based on age, among other things.

So WoW, should we pick a theme or character for discussion then move on to the next? Or perhaps "ASOIAF: A reread using my reading specs this time"? Any other ideas?

What would be most relevant though? If anyone says Measter Aemon, so help me. How about a nice discussion about Jello or fiber rich foods.

Seriously though I was wondering is it harder for some the older readers to identify with the younger characters? For me reading Ned Stark was like slipping into my robe. And while I could connect with characters like Jon or Robb easy enough, it often made me a bit nostalgic wishing I was 16 again. I actually could not remember what it was like to be Bran's age, lucky for me I have a nephew who reminds what that is like all the time. But I found Bran the toughest read because I felt rather disconnected to the character. And ever since Jamie pushed him out the window, I find myself looking at my nephew in a funny way everytime he does something stupid.

[Lykos]

Ragnorak, I fear it will be tamagotchi that Dany thinks up (you know, hatching and attending ...) And I guess it was the same with us germans, I was raised on Sesame Street and you bought our Volkswagen. God I´m such a hippie. :blushing:

ETA: Ser Creighton, I share the nostalgia regarding my adolescence, though it´s mostly Tyrion´s story that triggers it. And back come all the guilty feelings. I also identify very much with Bran, which probably just shows how immature I am.

[Mladen]

First, Woman of War, what a great idea for discussion. I have the utmost respect for, please forgive me for this, elderly people who are into fantasy. It speaks very highly of their imagination, richness of ideas and genuinly great personnalities

As a man of 27, raised in country where you had to mature sooner than you think, given the fact war and constant moving, I think that fantasy gives a new insight into harsh reality. I don`t believe there is such thing as literature for younger, for older, for women. I think those kind of writers are nothing more than cheap advertizers desperate for money. So, in my opinion, to percieve ASOIAF as literature for younger generation is to make tragic mistake.

Reading people`s comments and posts, I have to admit, that I am by some relatively discusted. Someone`s age shouldn`t be topic here, their preparness to share life time experience and everything they learnt throughout their lives, and giving ASOIAF new dimension with their maturity, attitude and knowledge is for me worthy of every praise.

As for posters being older than I am and how I see their contribution, well look at Ragnorak or Lummel. I now know they are older than I am, so I would use them as example. When someone like the two of them post ideas that are so wonderful, you have to admit you are dealing with person that spent years of reading and have a long-time relationship with literature and art itself. In modern life, we are all victims of our life style, we make compromizes, and we forget to idulge ourseves with the books. My working time is somewhat unpredictable, long and exhausting, but nothing relaxes me more than reading. And when you have people who managed to do that through their entire lives, you have just to bow to their spirit.

Literature isn`t for one age, or one generation. The good books can be read by both male and female, youth and senior. And those differences in our perspectives should be indeed celebrated.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

What would be most relevant though? If anyone says Measter Aemon, so help me. How about a nice discussion about Jello or fiber rich foods.

Seriously though I was wondering is it harder for some the older readers to identify with the younger characters? For me reading Ned Stark was like slipping into my robe. And while I could connect with characters like Jon or Robb easy enough, it often made me a bit nostalgic wishing I was 16 again. I actually could not remember what it was like to be Bran's age, lucky for me I have a nephew who reminds what that is like all the time. But I found Bran the toughest read because I felt rather disconnected to the character. And ever since Jamie pushed him out the window, I find myself looking at my nephew in a funny way everytime he does something stupid.

Jello and fiber rich foods? Oh goodness no! I'm not anywhere near that. I guess I fall very much in the middle and can relate to the younger characters (I'm also not upset about their ages because I've read a lot of fantasy and understand world building means just that - I build my world so get over it) and I can relate to the adult characters as well.

LoL at you looking at your nephew.

I don't mean that we should look at the older characters, merely discuss how we are interpreting things and possibly seeing if there is a disconnect with what the younger readers may interpret the same things. That could prove interesting.

[Lady Arya's Song]

I have found myself relating to Sansa's POV due to generational thinking. Sansa wanted to be a lady and so very determined to have her life be like the songs and stories of chilvary.

I grew up in the era where the mother in " Leave it to Beaver" was our role model. I embraced it all.

My daughter is Arya..and Arya is my fav character not because I relate to her at all but because I am more like Sansa who sang so sweetly the Mother song to try to gentle Sandor.

I sing the Mother song to my young adult children and I carry all the worries and love and hope for their futures growing up in a world that is so radically different than the one that formed my opinions.

The character Arya has seen things no child should have to see and has had to perform acts to save her life and those she cares for that move me to tears when I read this series. My daughter is all the things I never was. Fierce, intelligent, college educated ..a young woman who knows herself and is not afraid to move to places alone and is ambitious in her career. I am in awe of her and I am frightened for her. The same with the character Arya. I want Arya's song to be one of coming home and somehow regaining that feeling of security she once knew at WF. I want Jon Snow to ruffle her hair again and for them to finish each other's sentances. That is the mother in me coming out..but its where I come from and who I am.

I also married a " beast" much like Sandor so that is my link to Sansa. We have been married 35 years and yes he is still the one.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Reading people`s comments and posts, I have to admit, that I am by some relatively discusted. Someone`s age shouldn`t be topic here, their preparness to share life time experience and everything they learnt throughout their lives, and giving ASOIAF new dimension with their maturity, attitude and knowledge is for me worthy of every praise.

Literature isn`t for one age, or one generation. The good books can be read by both male and female, youth and senior. And those differences in our perspectives should be indeed celebrated.

Whoa there. It's not that you should be disgusted about people discussing what factors might affect interpretation of a text. That's what we are referring to by stating that age can cause some people to view acts and characters differently. Nothing offensive about that. Also, no one is stating that literature is for any one group. However it is a known fact that if you read a book now at 27, when you are 57 and read it again, you will most likely see different things and might feel completely differently about it.

<<snip>>

What a lovely post!

[Mladen]

Whoa there. It's not that you should be disgusted about people discussing what factors might affect interpretation of a text. That's what we are referring to by stating that age can cause some people to view acts and characters differently. Nothing offensive about that. Also, no one is stating that literature is for any one group. However it is a known fact that if you read a book now at 27, when you are 57 and read it again, you will most likely see different things and might feel completely differently about it.

That paragraph was written regarding these so-called funny posts

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/85861-growing-strong-fans-not-so-young-come-out-of-your-closets/#entry4363138

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/85861-growing-strong-fans-not-so-young-come-out-of-your-closets/#entry4363213

[Woman of War]

Thank you for your wonderful answers.

Your post, Lady Arya's song, was incredibly touching, it nearly made me cry, it's so full of courage.

And, Ragnorak And Sir Creighton, you are right, having children fundamentally changes the approach to the story. One of the most painful scenes for me was when Cat sits at a table with Brienne and yet utterly alone, having just heard about the death of Bran and Rickon, there is all the misery of the world in it. There is Cersei the epitome of a bad parent... But how often are we insufficient, projecting our ambitions on the kids because we did not get what we dreamt of, being tiger moms, helicopter parents or career women failing in organizing the village to raise the kids, overprotective stay at home mums.... No, we can't do it right.

And leaving a child behind or sending it away, for years maybe, no one who doesn't have a kid can imagine that.

That Varys-Illyrio-Tyrion example is great, Bent Branch.

Ragnorak, your description of childhood is precisely my experience of growing up, a freedom of mind and body no kid in "modern" countries has any longer. But then: When I was a little girl most schools did not even allow girls to show up in trousers, only skirts even in winter. And being the noisy, messy tomboy I was, I got nothing but trouble. Today this kind of self confidence is expected from ambitious girls, minus the messy part, and the pinkification tendencies are a reaction against that, an attempt to find a niche. To me this looks like young women giving away or taking for granted what I had fought for! Probably an unjustified prejudice. But this may explain why I have difficulties to relate to a girl like Sansa, something younger women may feel with Arya.

And my love for the character Tyrion is easily explained by my having two sons. Every boy is a little bit Tyrion in puberty I guess.

What a comparatively long life teaches most of all is that there are no easy right and wrong answers, no absolute morality, neither in politics nor in love and relationships, that there is always a story behind.

And no, I have no trouble relating to kids, I still remember (or shall we say, I remember again since I already have memory loss of the recent past due to Alzheimers.... :D JOKE! )

[Ser Pounce FTW]

When I was a little girl most schools did not even allow girls to show up in trousers, only skirts even in winter. And being the noisy, messy tomboy I was, I got nothing but trouble. Today this kind of self confidence is expected from ambitious girls, minus the messy part, and the pinkification tendencies are a reaction against that, an attempt to find a niche. To me this looks like young women giving away or taking for granted what I had fought for. This may explain why I have difficulties to relate to a girl like Sansa, something younger women may feel with Arya.

Yes, the modern approach definitely is trying to swing the pendulum in the opposite direction when it comes to gender and has pratically made the color pink illegal for little girls. That doesn't stop the development of feminine traits or even discourage it but girls are being reminded that they aren't as restricted as they once were. For older readers, that fight (among others) is still close to home and may make the presence of a girl that accepts limitations frustrating. It's one of the reasons I loved The Hunger Games so much. The reversal of gender roles was really fun to read.

[Theda Baratheon]

This is a really interesting thread with some lovely posts. I am a baby (haha :P) of 19, so I am very interested in how people older with more life experience view the series.

[Woman of War]

Yes, the modern approach definitely is trying to swing the pendulum in the opposite direction when it comes to gender and has pratically made the color pink illegal for little girls. That doesn't stop the development of feminine traits or even discourage it but girls are being reminded that they aren't as restricted as they once were. For older readers, that fight (among others) is still close to home and may make the presence of a girl that accepts limitations frustrating. It's one of the reasons I loved The Hunger Games so much. The reversal of gender roles was really fun to read.

i as well loved The Hunger Games, for that reason and as well for the ambiguous ending, not a triumphant victory but just like life.

[Ragnorak]

Ragnorak, I fear it will be tamagotchi that Dany thinks up (you know, hatching and attending ...) And I guess it was the same with us germans, I was raised on Sesame Street and you bought our Volkswagen. God I´m such a hippie. :blushing:

ETA: Ser Creighton, I share the nostalgia regarding my adolescence, though it´s mostly Tyrion´s story that triggers it. And back come all the guilty feelings. I also identify very much with Bran, which probably just shows how immature I am.

tamagotchi... just perfect.

My grandparents were really in the generation that had Japanese resentment- things like buying a Japanese car being unthinkable or un-American. Although my grandmother was a school teacher and when there was a huge influx of Japanese in the 80's she was the one who volunteered to teach them. That's probably another odd generational thing clouded in the current politically correct climate-- that people can have the dichotomous ability to simultaneously resent a whole group of people yet react very differently when they enter your life runs counter to the current tolerance dogma. I have a friend who is Portuguese and his stepfather always used to call him and his mother greenhorns. It was anything from a term of affection to one of annoyance. I sometimes wonder if people never exposed to this to pick up on all the subtle differences in the use of "Imp" or "Bastard." Like Slynt meant "Imp" with pure malice when Tyrion was sending him to the Wall, but not every usage, even every insulting usage, carries the same message.

I have found myself relating to Sansa's POV due to generational thinking. Sansa wanted to be a lady and so very determined to have her life be like the songs and stories of chilvary.

I grew up in the era where the mother in " Leave it to Beaver" was our role model. I embraced it all.

My daughter is Arya..and Arya is my fav character not because I relate to her at all but because I am more like Sansa who sang so sweetly the Mother song to try to gentle Sandor.

I sing the Mother song to my young adult children and I carry all the worries and love and hope for their futures growing up in a world that is so radically different than the one that formed my opinions.

The character Arya has seen things no child should have to see and has had to perform acts to save her life and those she cares for that move me to tears when I read this series. My daughter is all the things I never was. Fierce, intelligent, college educated ..a young woman who knows herself and is not afraid to move to places alone and is ambitious in her career. I am in awe of her and I am frightened for her. The same with the character Arya. I want Arya's song to be one of coming home and somehow regaining that feeling of security she once knew at WF. I want Jon Snow to ruffle her hair again and for them to finish each other's sentances. That is the mother in me coming out..but its where I come from and who I am.

I also married a " beast" much like Sandor so that is my link to Sansa. We have been married 35 years and yes he is still the one.

This is just beautiful. It is also one of the things I find fascinating about characters like Cat and Sansa. I don't think I've ever encountered a fantasy book that incorporated mothers or "traditional" female characters like Sansa in such real and compelling dimensions. I've had some chats with people about whether or not the perception of Sansa in particular is heavily influenced by generational differences since it is hard to find a positive role model or archetype for the experience you had in life..

[gougef]

i as well loved The Hunger Games, for that reason and as well for the ambiguous ending, not a triumphant victory but just like life.

Also, the insight into hunger and starvation (which the movie pretty much glossed over) and (the most important to me) is her descent into PTSD.

As a post-50 male, I suddenly, 5 years ago, was granted the privilege of raising my now 7 year old step-grand-daughter. It force me into re-examining gender roles. I have noticed lately that I have been attracted to literature/films with strong female leads.

[Kittykatknits]

I turn 37 in a few months, so for once I'm actually the youngin' in a thread. Seems every time age comes up, everyone else is at least 10 years younger than me. Nice change of pace. I had no idea what "OG" meant on the other thread, had to go look it up. All the references to actors and models that appear on here always go over my head, I have no idea who any of those people are. Or any song that is mentioned for that matter. Personally, I'm enjoying getting older. Life is less about checking boxes and more about enjoying what I have, realizing just how much more I like myself the older I get.

I suppose my age/experiences have influenced some of my impressions of the series. I love that Martin included Catelyn as a character in the series. To often, the mother is dead (every disney movie and fantasy book ever) or in the background to nurture the real characters in the series. However, Catelyn is a whole person, defined not just by motherhood but her political experiences and personal desires and I love her for that. I'm a mother too but it's not the sole thing that defines me.

I do tend to forget the ages of the characters when reading, getting lost in their stories and thoughts. Besides, Martin will have the older characters acting more childish than some of the younger ones in the series at times. I enjoy Sansa because of her story, Jaime's introspection, Dany's journey, Jon's path to leadership, and so on. A good character will grow and change over the course of a book and they are all doing that, regardless of ages. That's all that matters to me.

I will say the way wine in these books gets consumed has always left me wondering. A couple glasses of wine and I'm done. How do these people manage to drink so much without falling asleep all the time?

You know one of the biggest debates I have on this board is about Rhaegar leaving Elia and his kids. The most common reply is that he did it for love. But they never seem to understand what I am saying when I say if you can't love your kids, you can't love anyone. I don't think many of the posters understand the bond of holding your child in your arms for the first time. How strong that is. They tend to think of it as not a big deal and that it does not mean anything to the character that he left his kids. They just see them as an after thought. Not everyone but a good amount of posters just don't get my perspective on that.

I agree, never understood why he is liked. All I see is a man who left his wife and kids to chase after another woman and then seemed OK with the fact his father was keeping them hostage - even knowing what type of man his father was.

Really? Barring the big names, I thought we skewed more high school-early 20s. Although I believe Lummel is, like WoW, a respected elder.

Lummel is 37 or 38 I believe, only a bit older than me.

Respected Elder? I think Lummel is still in the death throes of his thirties. Let him enjoy the last few ticks of his odometer in peace and then taunt him when he's psychologically vulnerable. :devil:

I'm 43. In general with age comes a perspective from having seen things with much longer cycles come full circle. There's also a point where the nostalgic things from your youth become forgotten and unknown in the emerging generation of young adults which gives one a certain perspective as well.

There are other things that apply to the series like marriage and divorce. Divorce is just a common occurrence today but I remember a time when it was still a shocking event and even a bit taboo. The notion of marriage as an inviolable institution isn't hard to imagine but having seen the social pressures applied to people and the attitudes surrounding it I think those are probably harder to imagine for someone who never saw or experienced it. Child rearing practices is another one. There is far more supervision, structured activity, and frequent contact among parents and children today. When I was growing up the almost universal parenting rule was be home before the street lights come on or before dark. There were no cell phones so children were gone unless you went out to hunt them down or started calling the neighbors. There was far more independence and a need for children to structure their own activities. In some ways I find Ned's expectation that Rickon overcome his fear of the direwolf closer to my childhood than some of the things I see today. Bullying today has a national focus. In my day it was mostly something you were supposed to address amongst yourselves as children-- it had to be given how much unsupervised time children had. As an example, Jon protecting Sam is a story that I saw play out frequently from first grade through high school. I suppose seeing a generational resentment against the Japanese from WWII give way to Pokemon and sushi bars offers a certain perspective on shifting alliances among Houses as well.

I remember the first friend I had whose parents were divorced. It seemed so foreign to me, couldn't imagine. Free time was also very similar to what you describe. I grew up on an island and would leave in the mornings to go exploring, coming home if I got hungry. The day ended when it got dark outside. My parents wouldn't have a clue where I was or what I was doing for hours on end.

Ragnorak, I fear it will be tamagotchi that Dany thinks up (you know, hatching and attending ...) And I guess it was the same with us germans, I was raised on Sesame Street and you bought our Volkswagen. God I´m such a hippie. :blushing:

Never feel bad for being a hippie, the world needs more of us. And tamagotchi - finally a pop culture reference on this site that I recognize.

I also married a " beast" much like Sandor so that is my link to Sansa. We have been married 35 years and yes he is still the one.

Only married 13 years but I kinda did too. Didn't hit me until I had a conversation with someone but my husband does match Sandor in some ways. Minus the killing, burns, PTSD, and other things, of course. But still madly in love.

[gande51]

Great thread :) just hovering here seeing everyone's opinions , chats , just creeping about :P

As a nearly 20 year old fantasy and historical reader , I love how so many of you , have embraced the new flow of culture in the areas of forums , chat rooms , etc . Yeah a lot of our lives are busy with technology and yes it's becoming a problem but other then my roommate , FB and other places like these on the web , there aren't many places I actually can connect with people on such a level that they are seen as friends , although I've never met them before ...

If you talk to my mother whom is 50 as well as you , Woman of War , you would find her very narrow minded , with a sence of "leave those things to the youth of today" nature .

So thank you for posting this thread it's an absolute honour seen such a community of people brought together like this :)

Gin

[Lonin]

I too am well over 35+, in fact I am much closer to GRRMs age.

When thinking about the younger characters points of view, remember that they were written by a man who is currently 64.

[Lady Arya's Song]

The Septon Meribald description about men in battle about did me in due to my age. Our oldest son was serving in Afghanistan and after reading Brienne's chapter , I cried and put the books aside for a while.

Sandor Clegane exhibits PTSD in his story arch. Another very hard thing for me to read. I see my sons in many characters in these books..very poignant.

My husband listens to the series audio driving to and from work. We discuss the characters daily and we have so much enjoyed this series together. Even the songs..we discuss those and we laugh together about Roy Dotrice singing abilities in the audio. We speculate about where characters might be heading, we disagree and have debates. Later we find ourselves using phrases from the books in everyday conversation and then laughing at each other.

We search out theories in the books and discuss those. He has his fav characters, I have mine.

Recently I purchased a Stark mug and a Hodor t-shirt for my husband and he got such a kick out of the Hodor t-shirt..lol It remains to be seen how he will be greeted by any strangers who might have read the series and notices his t-shirt while he is out riding his bike or cutting the grass.

We enjoyed The Hunger Games as well.

[Woman of War]

I too am well over 35+, in fact I am much closer to GRRMs age.

When thinking about the younger characters points of view, remember that they were written by a man who is currently 64.

Yes, and that craftsmanship is impressing. I am looking forward to NON-retirement "when I'm sixty-four"

[Ser Pounce FTW]

One of the characters that I've always found fascinating is Tywin. I find him such a paragon of the now antiquated "Hard Father". He doesn't want to have warm fluffly hugging sessions. He focuses on tasks and keeps his mind forever on his family's well being by maintaining it's strength, wealth and reputation. While I hate his sharp lesson for Tyrion, I like him and can relate to him since he reminds so much of the men I knew growing up. They"d never dream of cracking a smile at certain times and really felt a duty to their families. I can even relate to the gender differences he shows regarding Cersei and Jaime. I clearly remember the first time my dad told me to follow him to the basement so he could show me what to do if the boiler light went out. My sister followed and was specifically told "this is nothing for you to get your hands dirty with". So while I'm glad we've moved away from this kind of thinking, I understand Tywin well because I've known Tywins all my life.

[Blisscraft]

I, too, am in the over fifty crowd. I have a young daughter, so that keeps me more in tune with the youngsters and their ever changing parlance and mores.

I enjoy the opportunity this site has given me to read the thoughts not only of others who are much younger, but also others who are from different parts of the world. Hopefully, that will keep me young at heart and aging gracefully.