Growing strong - fans not so young, come out of your closets!

[Kittykatknits]

And, Ragnorak And Sir Creighton, you are right, having children fundamentally changes the approach to the story. One of the most painful scenes for me was when Cat sits at a table with Brienne and yet

Ragnorak, your description of childhood is precisely my experience of growing up, a freedom of mind and body no kid in "modern" countries has any longer. But then: When I was a little girl most schools did not even allow girls to show up in trousers, only skirts even in winter. And being the noisy, messy tomboy I was, I got nothing but trouble. Today this kind of self confidence is expected from ambitious girls, minus the messy part, and the pinkification tendencies are a reaction against that, an attempt to find a niche. To me this looks like young women giving away or taking for granted what I had fought for! Probably an unjustified prejudice. But this may explain why I have difficulties to relate to a girl like Sansa, something younger women may feel with Arya.

And my love for the character Tyrion is easily explained by my having two sons. Every boy is a little bit Tyrion in puberty I guess.

What a comparatively long life teaches most of all is that there are no easy right and wrong answers, no absolute morality, neither in politics nor in love and relationships, that there is always a story behind.

And no, I have no trouble relating to kids, I still remember (or shall we say, I remember again since I already have memory loss of the recent past due to Alzheimers.... :D JOKE! )

I'm not sure really. Personally, I don't compare myself to either Sansa or Arya. If I need to pick a character that I'm most similar too, it's probably Ned. As to younger women taking for granted, that story isn't over. I went in to a very male-dominated career path after college and quickly noticed that I was very much a minority (as in the only female around, ever). I got sexually harassed and discrimated against more than once, attempting to correct the problem via my boss and HR. Both turned out to be a waste of time. I remember starting a job, working under a more senior male co-worker who treated me with quite a bit of hostility. I stuck it out and got him to eventually change his opinion of me, but it took quite a while. It wasn't until I'd been at this job for several months that I finally learned I was the third women who he had treated in a similar manner but I was the first who he didn't chase away. Sadly, all of this took place in the last 10-15 years yet earlier this week I listened to some younger people (teens) state that encounters such as mine were a thing of the past. Somehow, I doubt the world has changed quite so much in such a short period of time.

As a nearly 20 year old fantasy and historical reader , I love how so many of you , have embraced the new flow of culture in the areas of forums , chat rooms , etc . Yeah a lot of our lives are busy with technology and yes it's becoming a problem but other then my roommate , FB and other places like these on the web , there aren't many places I actually can connect with people on such a level that they are seen as friends , although I've never met them before ...

Oh, dear. I've been on the internet since the early 90s, using a VAX and mainframe machines to communicate with people all over the world, before anyone knew about HTML, browsers, or the web.

[E-Ro]

One of the characters that I've always found fascinating is Tywin. I find him such a paragon of the now antiquated "Hard Father". He doesn't want to have warm fluffly hugging sessions. He focuses on tasks and keeps his mind forever on his family's well being by maintaining it's strength, wealth and reputation. While I hate his sharp lesson for Tyrion, I like him and can relate to him since he reminds so much of the men I knew growing up. They"d never dream of cracking a smile at certain times and really felt a duty to their families. I can even relate to the gender differences he shows regarding Cersei and Jaime. I clearly remember the first time my dad told me to follow him to the basement so he could show me what to do if the boiler light went out. My sister followed and was specifically told "this is nothing for you to get your hands dirty with". So while I'm glad we've moved away from this kind of thinking, I understand Tywin well because I've known Tywins all my life.

You know, this is definetly interesting. I'm not the oldest poster(will be 30 in October) and I didn't see this so much with my dad, but more with my grandfather. He was a sort of strict strong kind of person. Very disciplined and serious. I learned at a very young age not to fuck around on his watch. He wanted what was best for our family. Much like tywin, I suppose tywin is supposed to represent "traditional" values?

[SeanF]

I'm 45, and my wife is a few years older, and we both love the series. So does my step-son who's 22.

I think that the biggest difference between my experience, and the experiences of the characters in the books, is never to have experienced war, either as a combatant, or as a civilian. I should think that must be true of most Western readers, but readers from parts of South America and Africa, or former Yugoslavia must experience the books quite differently to me.

[gougef]

Oh, dear. I've been on the internet since the early 90s, using a VAX and mainframe machines to communicate with people all over the world, before anyone knew about HTML, browsers, or the web.

Usenet was the place to be. Also, Dialup BBS's.

[UVA]

At 42, I guess I'm also at the older end of the curve here. I came to the series a few years ago via my husband, who qualifies as an 'OG'. I don't know if I would have enjoyed the books 20 years ago. Coming of age in the 90s, I spent a great deal of time, too much time perhaps, navel-gazing, reading Milan Kundera, Heidegger, 'Moby Dick', Virgina Woolf, stuff like that. I wanted the books I read to 'transform' me, give meaning.

Not to say there isn't value in this approach to reading and literature. But with age and various experiences, not the least of which is having three young children (age 9 and younger), I just don't have the time or patience anymore to comb through tomes trying to get some Truth. I suppose now I want to be entertained by a rich story with engaging and often infuriating characters. In the sturm and drang of my 20s, I don't know if I could have enjoyed the series. I wouldn't allow myself to be entertained unless something more profound was provided as well.

Thank you for your wonderful answers. Your post, And being the noisy, messy tomboy I was, I got nothing but trouble. Today this kind of self confidence is expected from ambitious girls, minus the messy part, and the pinkification tendencies are a reaction against that, an attempt to find a niche.

This may be why fans popularize Arya, Asha, and Lyanna, who most exemplify this era's modern cool, tomboy-yet-feminine image -- I see my own daughters trying to embody this. Sure they were shorts and tennis shoes but they must have sparkles on them.

I have found myself relating to Sansa's POV due to The character Arya has seen things no child should have to see and has had to perform acts to save her life and those she cares for that move me to tears when I read this series.

Beautiful post Lady Arya. Being older does not change my reaction to Arya -- as a child who also experienced horrors as I watched my own young mother (age 41) die of breast cancer. I think her experiences, similar to my own, put her on the other side of childhood. There's a dichotomy with you having been changed by your experience and everyone else and I think this applies to Arya's story. However, being a mother has added other facets to how I see the character though.

I suppose my age/experiences have influenced some of my impressions of the series. I love that Martin included Catelyn as a character in the series. To often, the mother is dead (every disney movie and fantasy book ever) or in the background to nurture the real characters in the series. However, Catelyn is a whole person, defined not just by motherhood but her political experiences and personal desires and I love her for that. I'm a mother too but it's not the sole thing that defines me.

I very very much agree. Given that so much of Cat's story is about the implications of motherhood vs. personhood, I wonder if I would have sympathized as much when I was younger, pre-kids. That said, I don't think if being older and a mother enhances my reaction to Elia's story. I think at any age I would be equally appalled.

[Kittykatknits]

This is just beautiful. It is also one of the things I find fascinating about characters like Cat and Sansa. I don't think I've ever encountered a fantasy book that incorporated mothers or "traditional" female characters like Sansa in such real and compelling dimensions. I've had some chats with people about whether or not the perception of Sansa in particular is heavily influenced by generational differences since it is hard to find a positive role model or archetype for the experience you had in life..

I don't think of Cat or Sansa as being traditional female characters. Rather, I look at all the female characters as struggling with their identity and need to find a place in the world, on their terms. Sansa doesn't want to use a sword and Arya doesn't want to make a tapestry, both are fine in my book. I focus on on their indidivual strengths, which don't have to be the same as mine for me to recognize and appreciate them.

Usenet was the place to be. Also, Dialup BBS's.

Yes!!! A friend of mine had a dialup BBS that I used to hang out on quite a bit. Complete with a message board and the latest in ASCII technology, all accessed through a lightning fast 300 baud modem.

[maarsen]

Here I am thinking I am one of the few old farts here and surprise, surprise! (I would put in a third surprise but the people would think I was referencing Gomer Pyle and then I would really be showing my age. Don't ask how I remember this stuff. With old age I am hoping to finally forget some of this crap.) Raising a family of 2 daughters, one a Sansa, and one an Arya, the story really does resonate. I can understand Cersei's position, and Tywin's also. My father came of age in a forced labour camp during WWII, and narrowly escaped death by bombing, hanging, being shot at, and starvation during the war. He did what he needed to do to survive as a teenager and it has scarred him. I see a lot of Stannis in him.

However it ends, soon I hope as I am not getting younger, and neither is GRRM, I cannot see everybody walking away into the sunset, singing. Even in spring with rebirth all around, the pain and scars will linger to haunt those still alive and yet to come.

Anyway, with age and experience, I can say that there is not a single character that I for whom I do not feel any empathy, or understanding.

[SeanF]

Beautiful post Lady Arya. Being older does not change my reaction to Arya -- as a child who also experienced horrors as I watched my own young mother (age 41) die of breast cancer. I think her experiences, similar to my own, put her on the other side of childhood. There's a dichotomy with you having been changed by your experience and everyone else and I think this applies to Arya's story. However, being a mother has added other facets to how I see the character though.

I

I really liked the comment on another thread that Arya's story was like a medieval version of the Killing Fields.

[Mladen]

I, too, am in the over fifty crowd. I have a young daughter, so that keeps me more in tune with the youngsters and their ever changing parlance and mores.

Over fifty? My God, by your ideas, I wouldn`t give you a day over 25. :)

I have found myself relating to Sansa's POV due to generational thinking. Sansa wanted to be a lady and so very determined to have her life be like the songs and stories of chilvary.

I grew up in the era where the mother in " Leave it to Beaver" was our role model. I embraced it all.

My daughter is Arya..and Arya is my fav character not because I relate to her at all but because I am more like Sansa who sang so sweetly the Mother song to try to gentle Sandor.

I sing the Mother song to my young adult children and I carry all the worries and love and hope for their futures growing up in a world that is so radically different than the one that formed my opinions.

The character Arya has seen things no child should have to see and has had to perform acts to save her life and those she cares for that move me to tears when I read this series. My daughter is all the things I never was. Fierce, intelligent, college educated ..a young woman who knows herself and is not afraid to move to places alone and is ambitious in her career. I am in awe of her and I am frightened for her. The same with the character Arya. I want Arya's song to be one of coming home and somehow regaining that feeling of security she once knew at WF. I want Jon Snow to ruffle her hair again and for them to finish each other's sentances. That is the mother in me coming out..but its where I come from and who I am.

I also married a " beast" much like Sandor so that is my link to Sansa. We have been married 35 years and yes he is still the one.

This is so touching. I relate with Sansa on some other level, misunderstanding, powerlessness in certain situation, playing stupid doll when needed, solitude. I wish I was like Arya, but there`s so much Sansa in me.

@blisscraft, @Woman of war, @Kittykatknits, Une femme c`est comme un champagne...

P.S. This Valyrian made me return to my French roots :). Strange

[Sun]

I'm 38. I'm yet to learn how to share parts of myself with other people. It's very hard for me to share aspects of my life, except in the most general terms, with others. Ofcourse this makes me entirely unsuited to our times.

I suppose the most I can say is that in a way I'm a lot like Jaime, the person people perceive bares little resemblance to the core.

I've seen first hand the consequences of war, and collective punishment, experiences which, there is no doubt, colour my reaction to the books. My intense dislike of Dany and the Greyjoys, I'm sure, is one of the most obvious ways in which the things I've seen affect my reading.

[Prince of the North]

Anyway, with age and experience, I can say that there is not a single character that I for whom I do not feel any empathy, or understanding.

Yep, this, I appreciate any and all of the characters Martin chooses to put in ASoIaF because they help to tell this incredible story. I'm 44 and it's refreshing to find a thread where I don't feel like the eldest participating :) I started reading the series when ACoK came out so about 1998 I suppose. I would have been 29 or so then. I predate this incarnation of the board as well. I've been married for about 11 years and now have a 7 year old daughter and a 5 year old son. There was never a time when we didn't want children and yet I've found actually having them to still be a profound revelation into myself.

As I said above, I feel I can relate to all the characters but, if I had to choose the one I'm probably the most similar to, I'd be lying if I didn't say poor ol' Ned Stark. The man who was known to be quite honorable but yet would seemingly place love before his honor any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I am 39 and grateful that I lived my teen years before cellphones enabled parents to track you down anytime :)

I have always read a lot, all kinds of literature. As a child I loved science fiction, I 've read Asimov's novels at least twenty times each.

Woman of War, we have a lot of common reading preferences, especially Huxley and LeGuinn. "After many a summer" is one of my top-10 favorite books. Do you also like political noir fiction?

I started reading the series last summer after watching a few episodes of the show. I know that younger me wouldn't appreciate the characters the way I do today. I recognise quite a lot of Arya and some of Arianne in my younger self but now I see more of Cat in me. She is my favorite character. 20 years ago, I wouldn't be able to relate with her and maybe I would have dismissed her. I wouldn't be able to appreciate Sansa neither. Now, I have strong motherly feelings for her - my not so secret hope is that she finds true love in someone who is brave and gentle and strong and worthy of her, as Ned said, plus handsome because yes, I 'm still that shallow and shameless about it!

Kittykatknits, have you been editing in vi?

[eggs]

Well, I asked for others ages without giving my own. I'm 20. Dont know why, but I figured the majority of posters would be college aged.

[UVA]

You know, this is definetly interesting. I'm not the oldest poster(will be 30 in October)

What?! I would have figured that you were in your early 20s. :P

[E-Ro]

What?! I would have figured that you were in your early 20s. :P

Hahaha, yeah I haven't grown up yet. my plan is to have all my shit together by 35. leaving plenty of time for me to be super serious.

[Erudain]

I am always secretly happy when I read these sort of comments... being 15, I'll definetly live longer than Martin :). But now I have to worry about him dying before me...

Well you could always cross the street and don't see the truck coming... :P

[UVA]

Hahaha, yeah I haven't grown up yet. my plan is to have all my shit together by 35. leaving plenty of time for me to be super serious.

Lol, good target age. I can say that I didn't ostensibly have my shit together until 2 years ago when I turned 40.

[1234567]

Respected Elder? I think Lummel is still in the death throes of his thirties. Let him enjoy the last few ticks of his odometer in peace and then taunt him when he's psychologically vulnerable. :devil:

Poor Lummel. He is still so young and yet worries like he's a pensioner.

Myself, mid-thirties. The interpretation of characters is certainly be influenced by age. But also by culture, class, political views and country of origin and then of course our own personal outlook on life, and of course reading habits.

I read a lot of fantasy books especially when I was younger. One of the things I love about ASOIAF is that they have characters like Dany, Cat, Brienne and Sansa who are not the stereotypical and ubiquitous women warriors in ridiculously little armour or feisty princess who feeds the peasants and defies everyone without consequence or wicked Queen (well Cersei inverts this well) or escapes every situation in the nick of time by working out everyone's motivations or having learnt to pick locks etc by having a double life as a their etc. Also as KittyKats noted above, the one dimensional Mother figure who fades into the back ground or dies early.

(One of the reasons I stopped reading AWOT at around book 8 was the female characters were awful, and of course the dragging Storyline)

[Mladen]

Myself, mid-thirties. The interpretation of characters is certainly be influenced by age. But also by culture, class, political views and country of origin and then of course our own personal outlook on life, and of course reading habits.

Dear Lord, you ladies make me feel so young, practicly a babe :)

Now, for all seriousness, this is the first time since I read fantasy genre that I see such powerful female fandom. Fantasy has usually been percieved as men`s genre, and it`s ironic how GRRM has been called mysoginist by some due to his female character given the fact the power of female adult fandom. I have to say, grown-up women have totally changed my view on fantasy genre. And this site had helped me understand better what I always believed in. Good literature is above gender age, relligion, nationality. Good literature unites people from all over the world... Ad I couldn`t be more proud than having some very intelligent, educated, mature women from this site as my friends.

[Moon-Pale Maiden]

I'm 34, but have always felt and acted older than my age. Too many tragic and difficult life experiences, I believe. I've always felt closer to people 10 and 20 years my senior.

I decided to put my age in my profile because I believe that a person's age has a lot to do with their perspective on these books. Like Ser Creighton said, there are certain experiences more mature people have in their lives that color their view on decisions the characters make. When I read certain posts, I am inclined to check their age as it helps me understand more where they are coming from. Are they 16 and in the flush of first love and feeling invincible? Are they 45 and a little more cautious about the stated motives of certain characters because they've experienced the pain of betrayal?

I would be interested in knowing if the younger people here (teens - 25) see Robb's actions with Jeyne differently than the more elder (I refuse to say older) members. When I was 18, I did all sorts of things (dropped out of school, ran away from home) for the sake of "love". Yeah, that didn't work out too well. Thank goodness a war didn't hinge on it. But I might have understood Robb's actions a little better back then. Now, at a more experienced and world-weary age, I think Robb acted selfishly.

The forum will be at its best when it has a diverse cross-section of ages. Every age group has its own perspective and is equally important.