Does Tyrion have any bastards around?

[Woman of War]

But Penny is around nineteen and had an older brother!

[YTDN]

But Penny is around nineteen and had an older brother!

The theory goes that Tyrion misjudged Penny's age and she's actually 13, and her brother is never specified to be older or younger. The full theory is here http://nobodysuspectsthebutterfly.tumblr.com/tagged/the-dwarf%27s-penny

Personally I support this theory for the angst potential alone.

[Alhazred]

Found it:

Tyrion was born in 274, making him indeed around 24 in 298.(Sandor born in 271)

Can you cite your source?

BTW, please don't bother citing wiki. Cite the books, or some other non-derivative source.

[WeddinGuest]

Won't repeat what YTDN stated, but yes, those are points for the theory. Penny certainly seems to ACT closer to 13 than 19, in terms of psychological plausibility. But TBH, both theories are fairly unlikely and require incredible co-incidences to be afoot.

I guess we can call the Sailor's Wife/Lanna theory "T+T=L" and note that it's quite a coincidence that Arya just happens to stumble upon Tyrion's estranged wife and daughter. But you can say "T+T=O+P" requires an even greater co-incidence, that the first dwarf Tyrion actually has any relationship with, just happens to be his own daughter. Both theories seem to derive support more from the obvious "angst" factors involved. (Butterfly's version actually goes as far as to predict Tyrion will actually have sex with Penny, and THEN find out she's his daughter, and she admits the angst potential of that is a major reason she supports the theory.)

I do find it very interesting, though, that Penny and Oppo (who if this theory is true would need to be her twin brother, and we know of at least 2 sets of legit Lannister twins), are both named after coins. We know Tysha was "paid" with silver coins (and one golden). Tysha naming Tyrion's kid(s) after coins out of a sad sense of irony, seems to be as plausible as her naming Tyrion's kid Lanna; would she really want to honor the Lannisters at all after how she was treated? Also, we know Oppo is murdered by bounty hunters who send his head to Cersei hoping to collect the bounty on Tyrion (it would be quite ironic if he was Tyrion's son), and he actually had yellow hair. Penny has brown hair like Tysha did, and we know Tysha liked her songs. I can certainly see GRRM at least planning a twist in which Tyrion comes to believe Penny might be his daughter, but that turns out to be a red herring.

[Woman of War]

Can you cite your source?

BTW, please don't bother citing wiki. Cite the books, or some other non-derivative source.

Why am I notsupposed to cIte Wiki? It is not more unreliable than anything else. Even Martin hinself has slight inconsistencies, something that can happen in so many pages.

The question is: why is it relevant?

Penny being Tyrion's daughter: unlikely since she knew her father and Oppo took over responsability for Penny, so he most likely was older and Tyrion not her father. 6 years wrong? At that age? But if she were Tyrion's daughter - wouldn't it be nice? And Tysha would definitely be dead, so Tyrion would get closure.

Lanna being Tyrion's daughter: nice again, I bet Lanna will get the means for a good life, maybe even Casterly Rock. And if Tysha has named her daughter after Lannisters there will be at least a bridge for communication open for Tyrion and Tysha, closure and peace of mind possible again. Unlikely as it seems from Tysha's side to take him back but I think Tyrion would dump Sansa anytime in favor of Tysha, valid marriage or not. And Sansa and Tyrion would go separate ways even if they stay formally married and Sansan fans are happy.

So I see no reason to establish that Lanna is too old or that Penny looks extremely old for her age. i can quietly lean back and wait for revelations to unfold.

[Newstar]

Penny has brown hair like Tysha did, and we know Tysha liked her songs

Actually, Tysha has "dark" hair (could be dark brown, could be black for all we know), while Penny's hair is "mouse brown." There's a distinction there. Mouse brown is not dark. It's an unusual hair colour if the reader is meant to be tipped off that Penny is Tyrion and Tysha's kid.

Also, Penny has "matching" mouse brown eyes. Don't know how you get to brown eyes from a blue-eyed mother and a green/black-eyed father. If GRRM had wanted to hint that Penny was their child, her colouring would be different.

It's true that Tyrion could have misjudged her age, but I doubt he would be off by six years. When GRRM wants to tip us off about age, he does so--Tyrion noting that Aegon's appearance doesn't quite match up with his supposed age in ADWD--but he doesn't with Penny.

I do kind of like the Sailor's Wife/Lanna theory, if only because it lines up so neatly: the Sailor's Wife ritual of marrying her clients, Lanna being the right age, the name "Lanna," Lanna being beautiful (and the Sailor's Wife, too, presumably), Lanna having the Lannister trademark golden hair (although fine and straight like Tyrion's), the Sailor's Wife waiting for her "love" even though her love's dead, etc.

...I'm also partial to Pod being Tyrion and Tysha's lost son. Crofter's daughter, chandler's daughter, what's the difference, really? Yes, yes, I'm aware it's crackpot. :D In all seriousness, I do wonder, since we don't have any hair/eye colour for Pod (a strange omission since we have hair and/or eye colours for pretty much all characters at Pod's level of prominence in the books), and since Pod is pictured in the Amoka portrait card as having fine, dark hair (and they cast a dark-haired actor to play Pod in the show). And, well, Pod is the right age...

He never slept with Alayaya or Dancy or Marei though.

Just as well, since I saw speculation that Marei is one of his bastards (she's literate and has green eyes and white-gold hair), although she's way too old (Marei is older than Shae, and Shae is over 13).

[Mrs_Darcy]

Should Tysha have had a child and should that child be from Tyrion and not from one of the countless guardsmen, it would still count as a bastard in the eyes of the world as the marriage had been annulled (most likely on grounds of false pretense or something similar).

I do not think, that this is true. Even today a Catholic marriage can be anulled (for a surprising amount of reasons actually) and the children born between marriage and annulment are not considered to be born out of wedlock. In the case of Tyrion, it would be a bit different, because the child would have been born a long time after the annulment of the marriage, but I still think, that it would be trueborn for the people living in the world of ASOIAF (since children born after the death of their father are not considered to be bastards).

One might even say, that the child would have been trueborn, in case they did not observe all formalities (Tyrion notes an absence of witnesses). Since both Tysha and Tyrion probably believed, that the marriage was a real marriage, they would have been married in good faith and any child born by Tysha would be considered to be trueborn as well.

[Tywin Manderly]

Donnel Hill is the only known Lannister bastard, and is too old to be Tyrions.

Joy Hill, anyone? She is Gerion Lannister's natural daughter.

[Newstar]

Joy Hill, anyone? She is Gerion Lannister's natural daughter.

Yeah, I'm surprised Donnel's name would come up before Joy's. I'd forgotten about Donnel, to be honest.

Since both Tysha and Tyrion probably believed, that the marriage was a real marriage, they would have been married in good faith and any child born by Tysha would be considered to be trueborn as well.

Well, if the marriage was never valid to begin with (drunk septon, no witnesses), as opposed to being a valid marriage that was subsequently annulled, then I don't think that Tyrion and Tysha's belief that the marriage was valid would have any effect whatsoever on its validity, or on the bastard status of any children from an invalid marriage (as opposed to a valid marriage subsequently annulled). If the marriage was never valid, then whatever Tyrion and Tysha subjectively believed wouldn't make their child any less a bastard.

[Ours if the Fury]

He probably has 101 bastards .... he does have a way about him... unfortunately as much as i love him its gold....

[Alhazred]

Why am I notsupposed to cIte Wiki?

Because it is a derivative source, based on the books. It has no more and no less authority than any argument you can make, from the books.

I have already cited DANCE WITH DRAGONS as establishing that Tyrion must have born in 273 or 272. If you have a counter-argument, it must be from the books as well.

To be specific: aDwD Ch.22 "Tyrion"#6: "...I was only 10 when Robert killed him ..."

It is not more unreliable than anything else.

Yes it is. It is less reliable than the books. It is BASED on the books.

Even Martin hinself has slight inconsistencies [...]

It is indeed possible that the evidence from the books is inconsistent. This, if true, can be shown from the books.

The inconsistency, such as their is one, can be traced to certain numbers provided by the Red Viper, which can be shown, on several grounds, to be less reliable than other evidence.

It had already been argued, before DANCE came out, that Tyrion must have been born before 274, and that the Red Viper's numbers must be a bit off. DANCE essentially confirmed this, by establishing that Tyrion was already 10 years old in early-to-mid 283, at the time of Prince Rhaegar's death. Obviously, Tyrion knows better than the Red Viper about how much older Jaime is than Tyrion.

The question is: why is it relevant?

Because we are speculating about Tyrion's children, and Tyrion's maximum age establishes the maximum age of his children.

[Alhazred]

Well, if the marriage was never valid to begin with (drunk septon, no witnesses), as opposed to being a valid marriage that was subsequently annulled [...]

You are asserting a contradiction. To "annul" a marriage is to declare that the marriage was never valid to begin with. If the marriage was valid, then the annulment is invalid; because, by definition, you cannot annul a valid marriage; though you can perhaps get a divorce, if your religion allows it. (Apparently the Faith of the Seven, like the medieval Church, does not allow it).

Of course, a powerful lord can get a valid marriage declared to have been nullity from the start. A powerful lord can get many false things declared as true.

In this case, the theory of nullity apparently had to do with the accusation that the marriage had been a fraud to begin with ... that the bride did not truly mean her vows ... that she was "just a whore" acting a part. I doubt it had anything to do with drunken septons.

[Iona]

One might even say, that the child would have been trueborn, in case they did not observe all formalities (Tyrion notes an absence of witnesses). Since both Tysha and Tyrion probably believed, that the marriage was a real marriage, they would have been married in good faith and any child born by Tysha would be considered to be trueborn as well.

I'm a bit suspicious of the fact that they "married in good faith", since Tyrion knew that making it happen meant using a few dirty tricks. Not only the drunken septon and lack of witnesses, but it seems lies and some kind of bribery was going on too. From aGoT:

“A Lannister of Casterly Rock wed to a crofter’s daughter,” Bronn said. “How did you manage that?”

“Oh, you’d be astonished at what a boy can make of a few lies, fifty pieces of silver, and a drunken septon.

We don't know what Tyrion lied about, but the context (A Lannister of Casterly Rock) could suggest that Tyrion might have even married Tysha using a false identity. In my opinion, the things we have learned about their wedding do not really suggest it was done "in good faith" or that it was legally binding to begin with.

In this case, the theory of nullity apparently had to do with the accusation that the marriage had been a fraud to begin with ... that the bride did not truly mean her vows ... that she was "just a whore" acting a part. I doubt it had anything to do with drunken septons.

I'm not convinced by this. If we follow this logic, I bet hundreds and hundreds of marriages in Westeros would not be valid. How many of them were conducted without one of the parties knowing everything about other, or with bride or groom (or their parents!) having ulterior motives for marrying.

We can take Sansa as an example - I doubt she really meant her vows and she truly was just acting her part. Even though the majority of the wedding guest knew this, her marriage is still considered binding in the eyes of gods and men. (That is, if we overlook the missing consumation part.)

[Dornishwoman's Husband]

I don't believe so. Tyrion probably always pays double price to any whore, so she could pay for a moon tea in case she get pregnant.

[Dany Girl]

I don't believe so. Tyrion probably always pays double price to any whore, so she could pay for a moon tea in case she get pregnant.

Where are you getting that?

[Dornishwoman's Husband]

Where are you getting that?

I'm just kidding. That's all :)

[Pod The Impaler]

Tyrion whores around loads, like King Robert did. Robert had tons of bastards all across the Seven Kingdoms.

Any chance Tyrion got Tysha pregnant, or any of the other whores and women he enjoyed over the years? Is this likely to be a plot point?

Knowing Tyrion, is it likely he'd acknowledge his bastards, or try to block out the fact from his mind.

To the OP:

Yes, he probably does.

The only one that might matter to him would be any from Tysha (or if she were alive to breed, Shae).

The problem is knowing with certainty they were his. I suppose if they were dwarves, this would seem to indicate it.

[Alhazred]

I'm not convinced by this. If we follow this logic, I bet hundreds and hundreds of marriages in Westeros would not be valid. How many of them were conducted without one of the parties knowing everything about other, or with bride or groom (or their parents!) having ulterior motives for marrying.

You're not following the logic. The logic is not that one member of the marriage has secrets, but rather than the marriage ceremony itself is a play-act and a joke; in the eyes of at least the bride (admittedly not to the groom, but it still takes two to make a marriage).

The words by themselves are not enough. Two actors in a play, saying vows to each other, are not really married, even if some tricksy schemer substitutes a real priest who thinks he is performing a real marraige, and an audience/witnesses who think they are observing an actual wedding.

We can take Sansa as an example - I doubt she really meant her vows and she truly was just acting her part. Even though the majority of the wedding guest knew this, her marriage is still considered binding in the eyes of gods and men. (That is, if we overlook the missing consumation part.)

No need to discuss Sansa's case. It is a different case with slightly different logic. It is, at least to some extent, a coerced marriage. It is binding in "the eyes of men" because a powerful and corrupt king stands behind it. Whether it is "binding in the eyes of gods" is possibly a a different story. In any event, Sansa did understand the meaning of the vows she was making. She did not think she was a actress putting on a play marriage to please an audience, or a prostitute performing a play marriage to please a customer who liked to play wifey.

[Iona]

She did not think she was a actress putting on a play marriage to please an audience, or a prostitute performing a play marriage to please a customer who liked to play wifey.

Call me a desperate romantic if you will, but in my world even a hired prostitute can fall in love with her client and actually mean the words of her marriage vow.

[Mad Monkey]

We don't know what Tyrion lied about, but the context (A Lannister of Casterly Rock) could suggest that Tyrion might have even married Tysha using a false identity. In my opinion, the things we have learned about their wedding do not really suggest it was done "in good faith" or that it was legally binding to begin with.

I always thought that he meant that he gave Tysha a false identity ("Oh, her? She's Lady Tysha, of House mmmphmmpph...")