[Book Spoilers] Loras and Alleged Character Assassination

[PatrickStormborn]

There wasn't even any sort of conflict for Loras, which is just completely unrealistic. Honestly, the scene looked like what straight men assume a gay hook-up must be like, and it also falls into the "gay men are promiscuous" stereotype.

And the scene was just bad anyway.

[The Mondrian Oak]

There wasn't even any sort of conflict for Loras, which is just completely unrealistic. Honestly, the scene looked like what straight men assume a gay hook-up must be like, and it also falls into the "gay men are promiscuous" stereotype.

And the scene was just bad anyway.

Mate, saying that scene is what "straight men assume a gay hook-up must be like" is one of the most racist comments I have ever read.

And moreover, nearly everyone on this show is promiscuous. Loras is a young, beautiful boy, who has been depicted in the show as willing to live and move on. His homosexuality had nothing to do with that scene.

[Ser Cookie Monster]

Mate, saying that scene is what "straight men assume a gay hook-up must be like" is one of the most racist comments I have ever read.

And moreover, nearly everyone on this show is promiscuous. Loras is a young, beautiful boy, who has been depicted in the show as willing to live and move on. His homosexuality had nothing to do with that scene.

Racist? How is it racist? RACIST??!!

[The Mondrian Oak]

Racist? How is it racist? RACIST??!!

I've used the wrong term, sorry. It's DISCRIMINATIVE. Stating that all straight men think that LGBT community is made of horny monkeys is offensive. It's like saying that all homosexuals are frail, whining people. General statements are ALWAYS wrong, and often offensive.

[PatrickStormborn]

I've used the wrong term, sorry. It's DISCRIMINATIVE. Stating that all straight men think that LGBT community is made of horny monkeys is offensive. It's like saying that all homosexuals are frail, whining people. General statements are ALWAYS wrong, and often offensive.

Oh FFS. Pointing out that a particular group of OPPRESSIVE people have STEREOTYPED the group they are oppressing is NOT me being "discriminative", and it can in no way be equated to you perpetuating harmful stereotypes about an oppressed group.

[Sun]

Have you mourn for the death of a loved one? Do you know the feeling? It does not inspire one to have sex...

I have.

I do.

it may not for you, but it does for others. What it rarely inspires is a vow of lifetime celibacy. You don't need me to tell you that, just look around you.

[madprofessah]

I had no problem with the scene, thought it was fine.

Plus it was hot! WHO was the guy who played Littlefinger's spy?

As a gay guy I didn't object to the scene at all. Even though Loras is one of the main gay characters in the books (which is not saying a lot) he has almost no impact on the overall plot and never gets a POV. And like the other main character, bad things befall him in the end.

In fact, is there any gay character in ASOIAF who has a POV chapter? (Not that we need GRRM to make POV characters at this point!!)

Anyway, I think it was nice in an episode which had a fair amount of nudity, that finally the producers gave us some gender balance, although if anyone is keeping score (and I'm sure someone is, SOMEWHERE) there's been a whole lot more female nudity than male nudity on the show.

jus sayin'

[PatrickStormborn]

In fact, is there any gay character in ASOIAF who has a POV chapter? (Not that we need GRRM to make POV characters at this point!!)

GRRM confirmed that Jon Connington is gay.

[TomBadgerlock]

GRRM confirmed that Jon Connington is gay.

Really? Do you remember where/when?

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

Plus it was hot! WHO was the guy who played Littlefinger's spy?

As a gay guy I didn't object to the scene at all. Even though Loras is one of the main gay characters in the books (which is not saying a lot) he has almost no impact on the overall plot and never gets a POV. And like the other main character, bad things befall him in the end.

In fact, is there any gay character in ASOIAF who has a POV chapter? (Not that we need GRRM to make POV characters at this point!!)

Anyway, I think it was nice in an episode which had a fair amount of nudity, that finally the producers gave us some gender balance, although if anyone is keeping score (and I'm sure someone is, SOMEWHERE) there's been a whole lot more female nudity than male nudity on the show.

jus sayin'

pretty sure GRRM confirmed that Jon Connington is gay.

[Ser Cookie Monster]

Plus it was hot! WHO was the guy who played Littlefinger's spy?

As a gay guy I didn't object to the scene at all. Even though Loras is one of the main gay characters in the books (which is not saying a lot) he has almost no impact on the overall plot and never gets a POV. And like the other main character, bad things befall him in the end.

In fact, is there any gay character in ASOIAF who has a POV chapter? (Not that we need GRRM to make POV characters at this point!!)

Anyway, I think it was nice in an episode which had a fair amount of nudity, that finally the producers gave us some gender balance, although if anyone is keeping score (and I'm sure someone is, SOMEWHERE) there's been a whole lot more female nudity than male nudity on the show.

jus sayin'

Jon Connington in ADwD

[Penguin king]

Oh FFS. Pointing out that a particular group of OPPRESSIVE people have STEREOTYPED the group they are oppressing is NOT me being "discriminative", and it can in no way be equated to you perpetuating harmful stereotypes about an oppressed group.

I don't see how it's reinforcing a sterotype though. The books and the show abound with casual sex, and the vast majority of it is hetrosexual. Hell, they even made Pod into some sort of sex god. I see how the scene changes Loras's character, but I don't see how one casual sexual encounter between two men can be called opressive within the context of the series. It's just par for the course.

[Winter's Knight]

Really? Do you remember where/when?

He does call Rhaegar his silver prince, "I reached for a star, overreached and fell" and has very fond thoughts of Myles who had an unattractive face but "when he smiled, none of that mattered".

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

Really? Do you remember where/when?

I believe it was brought up in a q&a where someone asked about the way JC described Rhaegar. GRRM said he was gay and that Rhaegar didn't love him in the same way. or something like that.

[The Mondrian Oak]

Oh FFS. Pointing out that a particular group of OPPRESSIVE people have STEREOTYPED the group they are oppressing is NOT me being "discriminative", and it can in no way be equated to you perpetuating harmful stereotypes about an oppressed group.

I think that I'm going to drop this discussion very shortly. But not all straight men are oppressive. SOME straight men are oppressive. Hell, even MOST straight men. But you willingly dropped that "most", thus including me and other non-oppressive straight men in your statement. I would ask you to avoid that, since it's wrong, and only detracts from a just cause, which is the safeguarding of people's right to fuck, be with and marry whoever the bloody hell they want.

[TomBadgerlock]

He does call Rhaegar his silver prince, "I reached for a star, overreached and fell" and has very fond thoughts of Myles who had an unattractive face but "when he smiled, none of that mattered".

Yeah, I remember suspecting it when I was reading Dance but I haven't seen the confirmation.

[Hodors Shlong]

Eh, in my opinion, I don't think Loras is a big enough character in the books, or show, to have really "assassinated". He's a minor character at best and remains in the background most of the time. Yes he shows a more commited and resolute devotion to Renly in the books, and there's that one line about the sun and candles to back it up. But TV Loras isn't the same as book Loras. And one line from the books that may or may not have been made slightly irrelevant in the TV show doesn't really equal character assassination, in my opinion.

And besides, this is one scene from the fifth episode. How do we know that he's not going to have some reflective moment about Renly next week, of whenever he's told he has to marry again? What if he shares an intimate moment with Margary about the struggles of trying to move on and not being able to let go of his true love?

And I don't really see this as promiscuous or slutty at all. He's a strapping young 17 year old lad. He lost his lover but not his libido. And again...How do we know he's not trying to move on? How do we know he's not still hurting over Renly? Hell, since Margary has been seen being manipulative and calculating this season, I've heard more than a few non-readers speculate that Loras may have been manipulating Renly.

The show, despite what a couple thousand of us book readers may think, is written for the millions of non-readers out there. I don't think those people are really concerned with one trait from the books of a minor character, that again, may or may not have been altered at this point.

[Zar Lannister]

But this isn't the books we're discussing. It's the show, which is a different, related, story. It doesn't have to be consistent with the books, it has to be consistent with itself.

Oh, I thought the OP/topic title inferred a comparison between both, am I missing something?

Most non-POV characters suffered some degree of adaptation. Just because Loras made the sun-candle comment once it does not mean that he is above being a sexual being - particularly given that he has not taken Kingsguard vows in King's Landing yet.

It may grow, but it is a minor deviation from his character in the books as of now. Arguably no deviation at all, even. Jaime, Catelyn, Jon, Stannis, Davos and arguably Sansa, Margaery, Selyse, Shireen and Bronn have all been through far more significant changes.

Mostly, the show has evolved some characters by merging some of them, switching traits around or adapting ones with less participation. My safest bet is that in part It's the shows practical approach to reducing payroll and condensing things for viewers. These changes demand the bigger switches in some storylines.

[Winter's Knight]

Seriously. Loras is no more a minor character than Margery or Gendry. He ranks with Bronn at the lowest.

[The Bear]

I agree. Loras was shallow but likeable character in the book. His major redeeming quality was his love and devotion for Renly. I got a feeling from the books that he stayed faithful to Renly long after Renly's death and was not playing around. He seemed more obsessed with glory and glorious death in battle than random flings.

Also, it seemed that they used Loras as blabbermouth in order to make Sansa look better than she is. (In the books she is the one who blabbs to Dantos about Tyrells' plot to marry her off - and he reports directly to LF. Here she never tells anyone. Same as in first season where she brought Ned's letter to Cersei, in show she never did)

I totally agree with all of this. I really resent the stereotype of gay men in that scene (instantly jumping into bed, casual sex) but since so many hetero characters are stereotypical Lotharios it isn't really egregious. I was more bothered that in the book it seemed like Loras wanted to avoid marriage and even other partners and focus on honour and glory instead so he took up with the Kingsguard. It seemed a strong deviation from his book self. Loras is kind of shallow in the books, but he's even moreso in the show. Would have loved him to have a moment of hesitation before, or seen guilt afterwards, some kind of hint that he still loves and misses Renly. I loved their relationship because it was healthy (apart from having to hide it), mutually satisfying and obviously loving (especially by Westerosi standards) and this does undermine it somewhat imo.