[Book Spoilers] Loras and Alleged Character Assassination

[Spidey]

He mourns Renly, but that doesn't mean he took a chastity vow. Life goes on.

This.

Sex doesn't require love.

[eyeheartsansa]

Meh. I just can't seem to get all worked up about Loras's undying love for Renly and how it may or may not impact his sexual behavior... They needed a clever mechanism for LF to get intel on the Tyrells, and this fit the bill.

The slightly larger issue is, can whitecloaks get engaged?

[ambi76]

He isn't a whitecloak on the show eyeheartsansa. Instead he's now the heir of Higharden. Tywin outright called him that in this episode, which, as a big Loras fan, is a much bigger deal to me than that (grantedly somewhat shallow) honey-pot sex stuff. So if he ever becomes a whitecloak on the show there will be interesting repercussions (maybe he has a younger brother on the show, who knows?).

On topic, re Loras book!character assassination: I'm sorry that train has long left the station. When Loras first really character-shaping moment i.e. psychotic breakdown and killing-spree after Renly's death was left out, respectively repurposed to show Brienne's devotion to Renly.

[Not_All_Ravens_Are_Grim]

The sex wasn't the problem, it was how god damn cheerful Loras was in that scene. He wasn't even that happy in his scenes with Renly last season

You gotta remember that the bedroom scene we saw between Renly and Loras last season was a year or more into their relationship. Was it passionate and love? Yes, but it likely had lost that initial spark that most romantic relationships have. That doesn't mean they were headed towards a breakup, but the start of any relationship is often more inherently exciting than the relationship a year in, so Loras would look happier with a new lover.

Also, think about it: Loras has been alone and mourning for months, and this is probably the first time he's been able to let his guard down (as he saw it) and fool around. Of course he'd feel cheerful.

[Dragonstoned]

When I contemplated this topic, I was committed to writing something along the lines of "Loras was just screwing around; it didn't mean anything; he's a young man and has needs etc..."

I will say that some of the things that people have said are making me question that assessment. For starters, I am not sure that if Loras were, say, a female character who lost a male lover OR a heterosexual man who lost a female lover AND jumped back into bed with the first lover he could if I would buy it. It DOES (as Ran puts it) seem very lazy; very "We are HERE and we need to get THERE so let's take this shortcut." I think that LOras' homosexuality IS being used as a short-hand for promiscuity.

But....

1) Maybe He's Over It. Loras in the book is clearly and honestly very hurt over Renly's death and he cannot get over it. And that fits very well. However, isn't it possible that Loras in the show is more ... shallow? Isn't it possible that Loras mourned Renly, and moved past it? Perhaps Loras accepts that his universe is a deadly one and that men die and you HAVE to accept that. Maybe Loras knew all along that Renly could die and that he is at peace with that?

Counter: Don't buy it. For starters, Loras seems motivated by his anger over Renly's death; he is actually angry at Stannis in the scene with LF over Renly's corpse; when he storms the Throne Room and removes his helmet, the look Loras gives is rage-filled satisfaction and PRIDE! Second, Loras does not appear shallow to me- from his caring for Renly (for pretty complicated reasons) to his knowledge from season 1 that the HOund saved his life and gives the Hound the accolades of the crowd. Loras, to me, appears deep.

2) In it to Win It: We all agree that Margery did not care for Renly; she cares for power. She did not crave sex; she craves to be Queen. Joff, Tommen, Renly - if she could marry Balon Greyjoy she would if she thought it would get her on the throne faster. Isn't it possible that this re-imagined Loras was also around Renly merely because he was trying to gain the power that would be available to him and his family if he could force Renly to rebel against Joff, discard Stannis and storm KL! Loras' pride, perhaps, is not with avenging Renly's death but with continuing the push to get the Tyrell's on the Iron Throne. Ambition may not just be limited to Mace, Olenna and Margery. Perhaps Loras wants his family to be powerful and Renly was a stepping stone to that end. And does anyone really mourn a stepping stone?

Counter: Does not ring true. First, Loras was not just glad-talking Renly. I honestly felt in the 1-2 discussions we caught that Loras believed that Renly was a better man than Robert and Stannis; I think Loras respected Renly (enough to wear his armor into battle); I think Loras had to get Renly to see what Loras saw - a kind, decent, intelligent man who would be a fair and honest ruler. Second, I don't think Loras was blind or immune to Renly's charm. After all, for a gay man, Renly was quite the mother-fucking catch. Why would Loras feel the need to fake it with Renly the way Margery did?

3) Its Just Sex, People: Of all the denouncements of Loras' actions, one that does not ring with me is the idea that while you are in mourning you cannot have sex. Well... Being gay (up until very very recently and even THEN only in certain, isolated parts of the world) is a hard fucking life. Who knows how or when you will be able to find another man who you can be with? Loras, like Tyrion and others, may not put a high premium on sex and see it as just a physical experience. This would NOT be unlike the way many men - gay and straight - act in all sorts of situations. Much like Elliot Spitzer who slept with prostitutes (thus destroying his political career and almost his marriage), perhaps Loras does not WANT to become entangled in emotional entanglements ESPECIALLY after Renly's death. He does not want to meet the next man who he can sweep of his feet; he wants to just have some sex and then pick his sword back up and get back to his life. I mean... maybe it IS that after Renly all the other boys in the yard are just candles and Loras is only looking for a few, brief flickers and not a bonfire. And sex is fun and sometimes a guy just wants to have fun.

Counter: Of all the theories this one is on the surest footing - its both real and sensitive to Loras as a whole person because so long as sex IN THIS INSTANCE is just for physical pleasure, it maintains Loras' relationship with Renly. But...

If there is one truth about Martin's universe is that sex is, usually, very important (and the show-runners carry this thought onward). Jaime-Cersei is the reason we are all here; Jon and Sam are haunted by their oaths when they have sex; Stannis' sex gets him a shadow assassin; Robert's sexual excess is a sign of his failings both as a King and as a man. Sex matters here. In that case, its hard to simply brush aside a sexual act because in this world sex carries great weight (because the writers say so, not because of any Westosti morals or customs). In that regard, if sex matters, well.. its all the tougher to make Loras' sex-capade seem benign.

To me, I think it teeters on the line between lazy writing and showing Loras as a complete man- gay or straight - who looks to sexual contact as a means of escape. Loras clearly does not treat the squire the same way he treated Renly. At the same time, it does smack of the stereotype that gay men just want sex.

Then again... how is that any different than the stereotype of straight men?

All in all, to me, its a close call, and I am willing to give the show the benefit of the doubt and say that Loras' sexual encounter with the squire was purely for physical fun and that Loras deserves to have that encounter because he is still very upset over Renly.

But its close...

I love the way you set out your posts

[freetickles]

They could have added more Renly/Loras scenes, they could have structured Sunday's scene as less Lora's-is-a-horny-blabbermouth and more Loras-is-grieving-and-tries-to-distract-himself-with-sex. They could have, y'know kept XXD gay like he was in the books and straightened him for the show. Thy could have had a pair of Black Brothers/ Wildlings getting it on instead of the many,many, many pointless straight sex scenes.

And Martin's lack of LGBT characters is a topic I've talked about in the book forums 1/31 povs is not an encouraging statistic.

Who is the one POV character that's LGBT? I can't think of any.

[Runaway Penguin]

What i disliked on the scene is that it deleted "Major mistake no.2" from Sansa's resume... First she told Queen of Ned's plans, then she spilled the beans about Highgarden offer to Dontos...

[Mark Antony]

What i disliked on the scene is that it deleted "Major mistake no.2" from Sansa's resume... First she told Queen of Ned's plans, then she spilled the beans about Highgarden offer to Dontos...

Weird how they had Dontos for the first episode of season 2 and never brought him back.

[Joyful Union]

Weird how they had Dontos for the first episode of season 2 and never brought him back.

I

If you watch carefully during Blackwater, you can see him juggling. Not really the same, I know.

According to the producers, we havent seen the last of Dontos, so apparently he's coming back at some point, probably soon.

[BluePG]

What i disliked on the scene is that it deleted "Major mistake no.2" from Sansa's resume... First she told Queen of Ned's plans, then she spilled the beans about Highgarden offer to Dontos...

This is what bugs me the most too. I'm annoyed with how the handled the whole Loras/Renly relationship but it doesn't look like they can do anything about it now.

Sansa telling Dantos is a major plot point in her development. How are they going to show any growth if they've taken that away from her?

[freetickles]

This is what bugs me the most too. I'm annoyed with how the handled the whole Loras/Renly relationship but it doesn't look like they can do anything about it now.

Sansa telling Dantos is a major plot point in her development. How are they going to show any growth if they've taken that away from her?

Sansa is still known as being simple and caring only about lemon cakes, roses and pretty songs. There's plenty of room for growth without her having been dumb enough to actively hurt her own cause.

[juanml82]

3) Its Just Sex, People: Of all the denouncements of Loras' actions, one that does not ring with me is the idea that while you are in mourning you cannot have sex. Well... Being gay (up until very very recently and even THEN only in certain, isolated parts of the world) is a hard fucking life. Who knows how or when you will be able to find another man who you can be with? Loras, like Tyrion and others, may not put a high premium on sex and see it as just a physical experience. This would NOT be unlike the way many men - gay and straight - act in all sorts of situations. Much like Elliot Spitzer who slept with prostitutes (thus destroying his political career and almost his marriage), perhaps Loras does not WANT to become entangled in emotional entanglements ESPECIALLY after Renly's death. He does not want to meet the next man who he can sweep of his feet; he wants to just have some sex and then pick his sword back up and get back to his life. I mean... maybe it IS that after Renly all the other boys in the yard are just candles and Loras is only looking for a few, brief flickers and not a bonfire. And sex is fun and sometimes a guy just wants to have fun.

Counter: Of all the theories this one is on the surest footing - its both real and sensitive to Loras as a whole person because so long as sex IN THIS INSTANCE is just for physical pleasure, it maintains Loras' relationship with Renly. But...

If there is one truth about Martin's universe is that sex is, usually, very important (and the show-runners carry this thought onward). Jaime-Cersei is the reason we are all here; Jon and Sam are haunted by their oaths when they have sex; Stannis' sex gets him a shadow assassin; Robert's sexual excess is a sign of his failings both as a King and as a man. Sex matters here. In that case, its hard to simply brush aside a sexual act because in this world sex carries great weight (because the writers say so, not because of any Westosti morals or customs). In that regard, if sex matters, well.. its all the tougher to make Loras' sex-capade seem benign.

To me, I think it teeters on the line between lazy writing and showing Loras as a complete man- gay or straight - who looks to sexual contact as a means of escape. Loras clearly does not treat the squire the same way he treated Renly. At the same time, it does smack of the stereotype that gay men just want sex.

Then again... how is that any different than the stereotype of straight men?

All in all, to me, its a close call, and I am willing to give the show the benefit of the doubt and say that Loras' sexual encounter with the squire was purely for physical fun and that Loras deserves to have that encounter because he is still very upset over Renly.

But its close...

As in real life, there is meaningful sex and meaningless, sport-like, sex. Sticking to the show, Theon having sex with the ship's captain's daughter on the way to Pyke is meaningless, at least for him. All of Tyrion's sex before Shae is meaningless. Dokhrathi having sex during Danny's wedding is meaningless. Bronn having sex with hookers is meaningless.

If anything, the only stererotype at play here is that women don't have casual, meaningless, sex unless they are whores. People are, sometimes, too sensitive about gay men having sex without love nor commitment.

[PatrickStormborn]

The biggest problem with the scene is that Loras doesn't even consider Renly at all. There's absolutely no loyalty there. Last season Daenerys rejected Xaro and stated "I already have a husband". Why couldn't Loras show similar devotion to Renly?

I think that I'm going to drop this discussion very shortly. But not all straight men are oppressive. SOME straight men are oppressive. Hell, even MOST straight men. But you willingly dropped that "most", thus including me and other non-oppressive straight men in your statement. I would ask you to avoid that, since it's wrong, and only detracts from a just cause, which is the safeguarding of people's right to fuck, be with and marry whoever the bloody hell they want.

You're policing a homosexual in a discussion about homosexuality. So why don't you PROVE that you're "non-oppressive" rather than doing exactly what oppressive society is already doing to the GSM community? Straight people are, generally, oppressive. After all, gay people are not oppressing themselves, are they? Therefore the statement "straight people are oppressing gay people" is 100% accurate. Maybe instead of getting angry about a generalisation you could actually listen to what I'm saying. The presentation of Loras in this episode was offensive. It was very, very, VERY obvious to me that it was written by straight men who have absolutely no idea about gay people.

And Martin's lack of LGBT characters is a topic I've talked about in the book forums 1/31 povs is not an encouraging statistic.

It's very disheartening. I personally read Daenerys as bisexual because her description of Irri reads like attraction IMO (and also because I'm desperate for a positive GSM presentation), but it hasn't been confirmed either way.

[Khal Porno]

I think it was confirmed that she is not in fact bisexual, because she said she didn't feel anything during it, unlike when she was with Drogo and the dude with the naked lady daggers.

[oakenhelm]

The biggest problem with the scene is that Loras doesn't even consider Renly at all. There's absolutely no loyalty there. Last season Daenerys rejected Xaro and stated "I already have a husband". Why couldn't Loras show similar devotion to Renly?

You're policing a homosexual in a discussion about homosexuality. So why don't you PROVE that you're "non-oppressive" rather than doing exactly what oppressive society is already doing to the GSM community? Straight people are, generally, oppressive. After all, gay people are not oppressing themselves, are they? Therefore the statement "straight people are oppressing gay people" is 100% accurate. Maybe instead of getting angry about a generalisation you could actually listen to what I'm saying. The presentation of Loras in this episode was offensive. It was very, very, VERY obvious to me that it was written by straight men who have absolutely no idea about gay people.

Is the 'when was the last time you beat your wife' question?

It's very disheartening. I personally read Daenerys as bisexual because her description of Irri reads like attraction IMO (and also because I'm desperate for a positive GSM presentation), but it hasn't been confirmed either way.

What is an appropriate number of gay POVs in your opinion? Should it match the general population? Some number greater?

[protar]

Is the 'when was the last time you beat your wife' question?

What is an appropriate number of gay POVs in your opinion? Should it match the general population? Some number greater?

More than one confirmed gay POV would be good. Even if we're not looking at 100% confirmed cases we only have 3 POV's (Joncon, Cersei and Dany.) who show any homosexual tendencies. I always thought it was slightly implied Arianne wasn't averse to some stuff with her cousins but there's really little evidence of that. Statistically there should be a lot more gay or at least bi characters.

[The Mondrian Oak]

You're policing a homosexual in a discussion about homosexuality. So why don't you PROVE that you're "non-oppressive" rather than doing exactly what oppressive society is already doing to the GSM community? Straight people are, generally, oppressive. After all, gay people are not oppressing themselves, are they? Therefore the statement "straight people are oppressing gay people" is 100% accurate. Maybe instead of getting angry about a generalisation you could actually listen to what I'm saying. The presentation of Loras in this episode was offensive. It was very, very, VERY obvious to me that it was written by straight men who have absolutely no idea about gay people.

Lad, honestly, my fault for speaking with you.

[Joyful Union]

The presentation of Loras in this episode was offensive. It was very, very, VERY obvious to me that it was written by straight men who have absolutely no idea about gay people.

Ah, so gay people never move on from the death of a loved one after several months? They never have sexual encounters with strangers?

[protar]

Ah, so gay people never move on from the death of a loved one after several months? They never have sexual encounters with strangers?

Loras didn't no. We have one gay couple in this series and D+D has the remaining homosexual sleeping around after the death of his lover. That's not impossible, but when it's a deliberate and unnecessary change from the more sympathetic portrayal of the books, it's disturbing.

[PatrickStormborn]

Ah, so gay people never move on from the death of a loved one after several months? They never have sexual encounters with strangers?

I'm sure some gay people do. But they would show some sort of internal conflict, particularly if they were as devoted to their loved one as Loras was (even in the season two finale Loras was clearly devastated about Renly's death).

Loras's character has been erased and reduced down to his sexual orientation. It's offensive.