[Book Spoilers] Loras and Alleged Character Assassination

[Winter's Knight]

I don't see how it's reinforcing a sterotype though. The books and the show abound with casual sex, and the vast majority of it is hetrosexual. Hell, they even made Pod into some sort of sex god. I see how the scene changes Loras's character, but I don't see how one casual sexual encounter between two men can be called opressive within the context of the series. It's just par for the course.

It's the only instance of gay sex we've had since season one though. You have plenty of different types of straight sex scenes remember? From marital rape to consensual to StannMel to loving to the brothel scenes. But you have three same sex scenes in as many seasons: the LF sexposition sequence, the blowjob of usurpation and Sunday's casual hook up.

So, when the only instance of a gay sex scene in two seasons is a casual hook up where Lora's spills sensitive information to a guy he's just met...it's problematic.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

didn't Renly and Loras have sex in season 2? or did they just make out?

[Winter's Knight]

didn't Renly and Loras have sex in season 2? or did they just make out?

Just made out. Shirts on even-it segwayed into Marg suggesting a threesome remember?

[Hodors Shlong]

Seriously. Loras is no more a minor character than Margery or Gendry. He ranks with Bronn at the lowest.

Maybe not minor in his importance to the plot, but minor in the sense that we don't get to see him or know him nearly as well as those other characters, in the book or show.

[Katydid]

I didn't mind the scene nor Loras getting a piece & letting his guard down, but I do think they could/should have cast the boy to look even a little like Gethin Anthony. Would have been poignant, and could have given Loras a chance to gaze longingly at him, reminding us of Renly.

[Penguin king]

It's the only instance of gay sex we've had since season one though. You have plenty of different types of straight sex scenes remember? From marital rape to consensual to StannMel to loving to the brothel scenes. But you have three same sex scenes in as many seasons: the LF sexposition sequence, the blowjob of usurpation and Sunday's casual hook up.

So, when the only instance of a gay sex scene in two seasons is a casual hook up where Lora's spills sensitive information to a guy he's just met...it's problematic.

Isn't that Martin's fault for not having more sexualy active gay characters? How many gay men even are there in the series? There's Renly and Loras, Jon Con and maybe the Blackfish. That's all i can really think of. If the show runners want a gay sex scene, and lets face it D&D want as much sex in the show as they can cram in, then there aren't a lot of options. They could avoid homosexuality completely, but wouldn't that be opressive in a different way?

[TomBadgerlock]

So, when the only instance of a gay sex scene in two seasons is a casual hook up where Lora's spills sensitive information to a guy he's just met...it's problematic.

Why?

They needed a way for Littlefinger to acquire information about the Tyrells for Cersei. They needed a way to get someone to slip up about the plot to marry Loras to Sansa.

Why is it problematic that they used a gay sex scene the same way they would a straight one?

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

Just made out. Shirts on even-it segwayed into Marg suggesting a threesome remember?

yeah I remember the scene, just couldn't remember if it went into implied sex.

[Winter's Knight]

Isn't that Martin's fault for not having more sexualy active gay characters? How many gay men even are there in the series? There's Renly and Loras, Jon Con and maybe the Blackfish. That's all i can really think of. If the show runners want a gay sex scene, and lets face it D&D want as much sex in the show as they can cram in, then there aren't a lot of options. They could avoid homosexuality completely, but wouldn't that be opressive in a different way?

They could have added more Renly/Loras scenes, they could have structured Sunday's scene as less Lora's-is-a-horny-blabbermouth and more Loras-is-grieving-and-tries-to-distract-himself-with-sex. They could have, y'know kept XXD gay like he was in the books and straightened him for the show. Thy could have had a pair of Black Brothers/ Wildlings getting it on instead of the many,many, many pointless straight sex scenes.

And Martin's lack of LGBT characters is a topic I've talked about in the book forums 1/31 povs is not an encouraging statistic.

[Winter's Knight]

Why?

They needed a way for Littlefinger to acquire information about the Tyrells for Cersei. They needed a way to get someone to slip up about the plot to marry Loras to Sansa.

Why is it problematic that they used a gay sex scene the same way they would a straight one?

The issue is twofold: firstly it is out of character for Loras to be so callow about it, just as it would be out of character for pre-Feast Jaime to hit on another woman. Secondly, having your first gay sex scenes in two seasons be a direct illustration of the All Gays Are Promiscious trope is problematic.

This scene could have been played in a number of other ways to avoid the above two problems: Oliver could have found Loras weeping/grieving and comforted him for instance.

[TomBadgerlock]

The issue is twofold: firstly it is out of character for Loras to be so callow about it, just as it would be out of character for pre-Feast Jaime to hit on another woman. Secondly, having your first gay sex scenes in two seasons be a direct illustration of the All Gays Are Promiscious trope is problematic.

This scene could have been played in a number of other ways to avoid the above two problems: Oliver could have found Loras weeping/grieving and comforted him for instance.

Out of character for book Loras, for sure. But show Loras has not been as angry or depressed as book Loras was at this point. In fact, show Loras has not been angry or upset since the last episode of last season. I don't see why it's not fair enough to assume that he's trying to move on? And I reiterate again that just because he had sex it doesn't indicate that he doesn't still love Renly.

But I agree generally that they seem to have played into the trope, even if they were not intending to.

[Joyful Union]

The issue is twofold: firstly it is out of character for Loras to be so callow about it, just as it would be out of character for pre-Feast Jaime to hit on another woman.

It's not quite the same is it, because Loras is a Non-Pov character, who happens to be fairly unimportant to boot. He's the sort of character that they need to change for plot purposes.

[Rockroi]

When I contemplated this topic, I was committed to writing something along the lines of "Loras was just screwing around; it didn't mean anything; he's a young man and has needs etc..."

I will say that some of the things that people have said are making me question that assessment. For starters, I am not sure that if Loras were, say, a female character who lost a male lover OR a heterosexual man who lost a female lover AND jumped back into bed with the first lover he could if I would buy it. It DOES (as Ran puts it) seem very lazy; very "We are HERE and we need to get THERE so let's take this shortcut." I think that LOras' homosexuality IS being used as a short-hand for promiscuity.

But....

1) Maybe He's Over It. Loras in the book is clearly and honestly very hurt over Renly's death and he cannot get over it. And that fits very well. However, isn't it possible that Loras in the show is more ... shallow? Isn't it possible that Loras mourned Renly, and moved past it? Perhaps Loras accepts that his universe is a deadly one and that men die and you HAVE to accept that. Maybe Loras knew all along that Renly could die and that he is at peace with that?

Counter: Don't buy it. For starters, Loras seems motivated by his anger over Renly's death; he is actually angry at Stannis in the scene with LF over Renly's corpse; when he storms the Throne Room and removes his helmet, the look Loras gives is rage-filled satisfaction and PRIDE! Second, Loras does not appear shallow to me- from his caring for Renly (for pretty complicated reasons) to his knowledge from season 1 that the HOund saved his life and gives the Hound the accolades of the crowd. Loras, to me, appears deep.

2) In it to Win It: We all agree that Margery did not care for Renly; she cares for power. She did not crave sex; she craves to be Queen. Joff, Tommen, Renly - if she could marry Balon Greyjoy she would if she thought it would get her on the throne faster. Isn't it possible that this re-imagined Loras was also around Renly merely because he was trying to gain the power that would be available to him and his family if he could force Renly to rebel against Joff, discard Stannis and storm KL! Loras' pride, perhaps, is not with avenging Renly's death but with continuing the push to get the Tyrell's on the Iron Throne. Ambition may not just be limited to Mace, Olenna and Margery. Perhaps Loras wants his family to be powerful and Renly was a stepping stone to that end. And does anyone really mourn a stepping stone?

Counter: Does not ring true. First, Loras was not just glad-talking Renly. I honestly felt in the 1-2 discussions we caught that Loras believed that Renly was a better man than Robert and Stannis; I think Loras respected Renly (enough to wear his armor into battle); I think Loras had to get Renly to see what Loras saw - a kind, decent, intelligent man who would be a fair and honest ruler. Second, I don't think Loras was blind or immune to Renly's charm. After all, for a gay man, Renly was quite the mother-fucking catch. Why would Loras feel the need to fake it with Renly the way Margery did?

3) Its Just Sex, People: Of all the denouncements of Loras' actions, one that does not ring with me is the idea that while you are in mourning you cannot have sex. Well... Being gay (up until very very recently and even THEN only in certain, isolated parts of the world) is a hard fucking life. Who knows how or when you will be able to find another man who you can be with? Loras, like Tyrion and others, may not put a high premium on sex and see it as just a physical experience. This would NOT be unlike the way many men - gay and straight - act in all sorts of situations. Much like Elliot Spitzer who slept with prostitutes (thus destroying his political career and almost his marriage), perhaps Loras does not WANT to become entangled in emotional entanglements ESPECIALLY after Renly's death. He does not want to meet the next man who he can sweep of his feet; he wants to just have some sex and then pick his sword back up and get back to his life. I mean... maybe it IS that after Renly all the other boys in the yard are just candles and Loras is only looking for a few, brief flickers and not a bonfire. And sex is fun and sometimes a guy just wants to have fun.

Counter: Of all the theories this one is on the surest footing - its both real and sensitive to Loras as a whole person because so long as sex IN THIS INSTANCE is just for physical pleasure, it maintains Loras' relationship with Renly. But...

If there is one truth about Martin's universe is that sex is, usually, very important (and the show-runners carry this thought onward). Jaime-Cersei is the reason we are all here; Jon and Sam are haunted by their oaths when they have sex; Stannis' sex gets him a shadow assassin; Robert's sexual excess is a sign of his failings both as a King and as a man. Sex matters here. In that case, its hard to simply brush aside a sexual act because in this world sex carries great weight (because the writers say so, not because of any Westosti morals or customs). In that regard, if sex matters, well.. its all the tougher to make Loras' sex-capade seem benign.

To me, I think it teeters on the line between lazy writing and showing Loras as a complete man- gay or straight - who looks to sexual contact as a means of escape. Loras clearly does not treat the squire the same way he treated Renly. At the same time, it does smack of the stereotype that gay men just want sex.

Then again... how is that any different than the stereotype of straight men?

All in all, to me, its a close call, and I am willing to give the show the benefit of the doubt and say that Loras' sexual encounter with the squire was purely for physical fun and that Loras deserves to have that encounter because he is still very upset over Renly.

But its close...

[The Mondrian Oak]

I mean, are willing to believe that book Robb's shagging Jeyne right after hearing of the death of his brothers (creepy as hell) was normal, but we're not willing to believe that show Loras could move on after months of castity?

And, does book Robb's shagging Jeyne imply some negative stereotype about straight males? Like "heterosexual males are horny monkeys who are not able to keep their cock in their pants, even when they're told their brothers have been killed and their corpses burnt"?

[Ran]

I don't think Robb was shagging his brothers... :P

Look, people respond to grief in different ways. Robb Stark grieves, is hurt, he sleeps with Jeyne. Loras grieves, is hurt, he remains devoted. It defines his response.

[Joyful Union]

I don't think Robb was shagging his brothers... :P

Look, people respond to grief in different ways. Robb Stark grieves, is hurt, he sleeps with Jeyne. Loras grieves, is hurt, he remains devoted. It defines his response.

In public though. Tywin was meant to be grieving and chaste too.

[oakenhelm]

I mean, are willing to believe that book Robb's shagging Jeyne right after hearing of the death of his brothers (creepy as hell) was normal, but we're not willing to believe that show Loras could move on after months of castity?

And, does book Robb's shagging Jeyne imply some negative stereotype about straight males? Like "heterosexual males are horny monkeys who are not able to keep their cock in their pants, even when they're told their brothers have been killed and their corpses burnt"?

I believe we go back to homosexuals being the oppressed group (I won't disagree with that) and straight men not being the oppressed group. So negative portrayals are viewed differently. Whether this means that all homosexuals should be portrayed positively because of this, I don't know.

[oakenhelm]

I don't think Robb was shagging his brothers... :P

Look, people respond to grief in different ways. Robb Stark grieves, is hurt, he sleeps with Jeyne. Loras grieves, is hurt, he remains devoted. It defines his response.

What makes you certain that Loras is to remain chaste? The candle comment is insufficient to me. I find it unlikely that every Kingsguard member didn't have "a little Sally on the side" as Sam puts it.

[Rockroi]

I believe we go back to homosexuals being the oppressed group (I won't disagree with that) and straight men not being the oppressed group. So negative portrayals are viewed differently.

I guess what I a saying is that sex is not necessarily "negative." And that maybe the show-makers did not mean to make it negative either.

[oakenhelm]

I guess what I a saying is that sex is not necessarily "negative." And that maybe the show-makers did not mean to make it negative either.

I tend to agree with you on that