Transgender and Gay Communities - Putting the T back in LGBTQ

[Seli]

It seems the Netherlands are in the process of changing transgender laws. It seems the old one only allowed for a legal gender change for post-operative (sterilized) individuals after approval by a judge. The new one which passed the most important of our chambers apparently removes those barriers and allows anyone who can convince an expert consultant to change registered gender. Of course the practical drawback is that probably only a few experts will be acceptable, but it appears implementation isn't completely though out yet.

They will also look into the possibility to get rid of gender registration completely, or at least register 'undecided' (if I understand the short summaries correctly).

eta: looking for an english source it seems the devil might be in the details, http://www.vreerwerk.org/tag/netherlands/

[karaddin]

I didn't want this thread to be about me, but since a lot of you said nice things anyway I just want to say...Holy fucking shitball walking into work this morning is up there for one of the hardest things I've made myself do.

[Noontidal]

I totally support you guys, but I have to avoid thinking about it - just like I avoid hanging around with pregnant women for fear of morning sickness and stuff.

[Rubies & Jade]

I didn't want this thread to be about me, but since a lot of you said nice things anyway I just want to say...Holy fucking shitball walking into work this morning is up there for one of the hardest things I've made myself do.

I can imagine that was hugely difficult, and congratulations! you did it! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

[Robin Of House Hill]

I didn't want this thread to be about me, but since a lot of you said nice things anyway I just want to say...Holy fucking shitball walking into work this morning is up there for one of the hardest things I've made myself do.

Congratulations!

[brook]

I totally support you guys, but I have to avoid thinking about it - just like I avoid hanging around with pregnant women for fear of morning sickness and stuff.

I'm really not following this one

[Sci-2]

Congratulations!

+1 Karaddin. I can't even imagine doing something that brave, but it's definitely inspiring. :cheers:

Also, Julia Serano's blog is great stuff, thanks to those who recommended her.

[karaddin]

And thank you in return, didn't actually know she had a blog so hadn't gone looking and found it :P the blog-born-blog intro is awesome.

[Chaldanya]

I didn't want this thread to be about me, but since a lot of you said nice things anyway I just want to say...Holy fucking shitball walking into work this morning is up there for one of the hardest things I've made myself do.

Congratulations, karradin. You are awesome and should be so proud of yourself.

N

[karaddin]

Congratulations, karradin. You are awesome and should be so proud of yourself.

N

Not feeling so much pride, just relief at this point. By the end of the week things might even start to feel normal again, and then I can get back to just living my life instead of all this upheaval.

[Seli]

Not feeling so much pride, just relief at this point. By the end of the week things might even start to feel normal again, and then I can get back to just living my life instead of all this upheaval.

Still, well done. I hope things develop into normal quickly.

[Gillio]

I didn't want this thread to be about me, but since a lot of you said nice things anyway I just want to say...Holy fucking shitball walking into work this morning is up there for one of the hardest things I've made myself do.

I missed this till now! Congratulations. One more milestone passed.

[Sci-2]

Changing Sex, Changing Teams

They don’t understand I’m not trying to pretend to be someone else,” Tony, now a 16-year-old sophomore at River City High School in Sacramento, said. “I’m just trying to be who I was all along.”

Professional sports have grappled with this question for decades, since Renée Richards, who was born male, underwent sex-change surgery and sued the United States Tennis Association to be allowed to play in the women’s draw at the 1977 U.S. Open: How, if at all, should transgender athletes be allowed to compete?

Over the last decade, the International Olympic Committee and the National Collegiate Athletic Association have adopted regulations for athletes who were born male but now consider themselves females and want to play on women’s teams.

And now, high schools are beginning to take on the issue as well, as a small but growing number students who identify themselves as transgender have begun demanding access to the same school activities, like interscholastic sports, that other students enjoy.

[Järv]

I almost included this in my post, as it's certainly part of it. However it think it's derivative from the sexism, if there is no superiority to being straight male, then theres nothing to fear in the questioning of that status. It's certainly set closer to some men's fear reaction however.

I am sorry, but I think the fear Trans people instill among the average straight person goes much deeper than that. A bit education and even “bringing down the patriarchy” will not really stop these fears.

Humans have a strong need for an understandable, stable and dependable world. Sex is one of the most basic categories people use to interpret the world and structure their experiences, almost as important as time and space, at least for the social sphere.

Thus, the sheer existence of Trans people challenges the validity and usefulness of one of the most important categories humans use to get a workable interpretation of the world around them. Therefore, Trans people are a great psychological threat, since they suggest that the world might be chaotic, impossible to understand, impossibly to control, simply dangerous… (which the world indeed is, but who wants to get their illusions bust?)

In short, I believe the fear (and resulting hatred) runs deep, although, of course, few straight persons would admit that.

Edit: Not sure any more whether it was a good idea to post these thoughts. Don’t want to shove anyone into a depression. But I really think I am right here and if the fear indeed has other causes, in addition to threatened male superiority, I think it is necessary for Trans people to realize this in order to develop strategies to cope with it…

[karaddin]

Couple of things in response to that:

1) I'm happy to accept it may be part of the problem for some people, but it's far from the full picture. You would have to show me how that source of fear can result in the dramatically different views of trans men vs trans women, and I don't think there is any explanation for that which doesn't involve sexism.

2) I'm not sure what we can even do in response to that other than what I'm doing, live our lives visibly and demonstrate there is nothing to fear. It does highlight the ridiculousness of the hate that gets piled on us though, hated by normal people for challenging the gender binary, while at the same time hated by some radfems for affirming the gender binary (because many of us wish to fit in and appear to be regular women).

[Järv]

1) I'm happy to accept it may be part of the problem for some people, but it's far from the full picture. You would have to show me how that source of fear can result in the dramatically different views of trans men vs trans women, and I don't think there is any explanation for that which doesn't involve sexism.

I fully agree, my argument tries only to explain the general fear many average persons experience when confronted with trans people, not the differences in their experiences with regard to Trans men and Trans women. But Trans men also experience many negative reactions, don't they? (even if in a smaller dose)

2) I'm not sure what we can even do in response to that other than what I'm doing, live our lives visibly and demonstrate there is nothing to fear. It does highlight the ridiculousness of the hate that gets piled on us though, hated by normal people for challenging the gender binary, while at the same time hated by some radfems for affirming the gender binary (because many of us wish to fit in and appear to be regular women).

Yes, that was he reason why I almost deleted the post. Difficult to say what could be done here. But maybe there is a general trend towards more ambiguity tolerance in Western societies anyway. The slow death of religion and para-religious political ideologies might hint to that. (at least that is a hope I have)

Questioning the certainties and restrictions of your long-established approach to the world might also be a creative and psychologically productive challenging experience for a minority of "normals". Like this self-awareness exercise where you are blindfolded for half a day in order to understand how extremely you rely on your visual sense, and neglect your other senses.

Though I am not sure whether Trans people would like that as a reason to seek contact with them...

[karaddin]

I fully agree, my argument tries only to explain the general fear many average persons experience when confronted with trans people, not the differences in their experiences with regard to Trans men and Trans women. But Trans men also experience many negative reactions, don't they? (even if in a smaller dose)

In the discrimination faced when discovered by extreme bigots? Not as much no, there is still the risk of rape and murder. Part of it also comes from the fact that trans men tend to have an easier time "passing" as Testosterone is better at reshaping the body. The difference I was referring to is what I went into earlier in this thread, trans men are essentially invisible, you could be forgiven for thinking they don't exist from their media portrayal. Trans women on the other hand are frequently used as the butt of jokes, depicted in a negative, offensive fashion, and even when attempting to depict positively are depicted in ways that reinforce negative perceptions about us, or are exploited in porn. And trans women (especially of colour) face the vast bulk of the outright discrimination and violence in the US.

Though I am not sure whether Trans people would like that as a reason to seek contact with them...

Not so much no, our identities exist because we do, the same as anyone else, I don't really want my identity to be something for someone else to experiment on themselves. You get a similar discussion arise when trans women discuss the phenomenon of what we call "chasers". Men who are attracted to trans women purely for being trans women. There can be multiple reasons for why this happens, and I would say a decent amount are actually closeted/in denial/not yet realised trans women themselves - I certainly broadly fell into this category - however from others it's major objectification and not remotely flattering.

[Sci-2]

While I think sexism plays a role in transphobia I do think Jarv is on to something - I believe it's obvious some guys are terrified that their own straightness might be questionable, and in their minds being attracted to a MtF puts them on unsure footing.

I also think there is something about the presence of trans* that makes some feel untethered at the subpersonal level. While I never considered myself strongly anti-trans, I do remember feeling uneasy even looking at MtF in my younger days when I was more attached to the heteronormative narrative.

[karaddin]

While I think sexism plays a role in transphobia I do think Jarv is on to something - I believe it's obvious some guys are terrified that their own straightness might be questionable, and in their minds being attracted to a MtF puts them on unsure footing.

But I think sexism/homophobia/gender roles are at the core of this fear of being questioned when you drill down to it is my opinion. When there is nothing wrong with feminine roles, when there is nothing wrong with being gay, then there is nothing to fear in questioning your orientation. And more to the point, when you look at what is attracting you about a trans woman, chances are it's a lot of secondary sexual characteristics associated with women anyway, it's not a man you are being attracted to, it's a woman. Even ignoring their own identity as a woman.

I also think there is something about the presence of trans* that makes some feel untethered at the subpersonal level. While I never considered myself strongly anti-trans, I do remember feeling uneasy even looking at MtF in my younger days when I was more attached to the heteronormative narrative.

I actually saw a good article from a person questioning their own kneejerk anti-trans feelings a month or so ago, I'll have to see if I can find that one, it was linked off /r/transgender on reddit.

[Lyanna Stark]

I didn't want this thread to be about me, but since a lot of you said nice things anyway I just want to say...Holy fucking shitball walking into work this morning is up there for one of the hardest things I've made myself do.

You are awesome. Well done. :)

Wanted to post more but am always stuck barefoot in the kitchen w. kid these days!