Transgender and Gay Communities - Putting the T back in LGBTQ

[karaddin]

Rise up against the oppressor (the child) Lyanna! Posting is more important!

[Sci-2]

But I think sexism/homophobia/gender roles are at the core of this fear of being questioned when you drill down to it is my opinion. When there is nothing wrong with feminine roles, when there is nothing wrong with being gay, then there is nothing to fear in questioning your orientation.

I agree with the homophobia part, but I'd make the distinction between being fine with others being gay versus being (or even just being perceived as) gay yourself. [AFAIK among straight guys the former often comes before the latter.]

And I think it does go deeper than feminine roles being seen as lesser. Many straight men have a subpersonal insecurity about their own masculinity. In some it manifests as blatant bigotry, in others its an attempt to cordon off trans* from their vicinity.

Honestly, I'm not sure if the issues around self-questioning is enough to explain transphobia. I recall a former coworker who is fine with gay guys being very anti-trans. Not that he couldn't talk to trans* or be friendly, but he found the idea of gender reassignment to be against some natural order he'd concocted in his head.

[karaddin]

See I still think to some extent we are talking across purposes. I'm saying that sexism etc AND that subpersonal insecurity about your own masculinity all stem from the same source, not that sexism is that source.

I do agree with your distinction that many (most maybe?) become OK with the idea of other people being gay before they would be fine with being gay themselves. I would say the same would be true of trans as well. Part of the process of realising that we are for many of us requires first dealing with our own internalised transphobia that prevents any self acceptance. I dare say a similar process takes place for self realisation about homosexuality, although that realisation in myself was somewhat different as I'm sure you can imagine.

I'm also certainly not trying to say that what I've put forth is the entire explanation, I think it's quite a complex issue and there are several reasons for transphobia, just that sexism etc plays a very major role.

[Sci-2]

Oh, I think our disagreement is more of degree than anything. I definitely don't think of myself as an expert on trans* identity, just trying think of the variety of straight dudes I know and posit what's going on with transphobia from that perspective.

I'd venture that transphobia comes from a deeper/darker place than homophobia, but I think that is very much centric to the West if not the US. My understanding is that there are countries that are very homophobic but accepting of trans*?

[karaddin]

Hmm I don't think that would be the case in any of the modern western nations, we all seem to be on similar trajectories with this. Maybe with some cultures like Thailand where trans people are considered a different way, but I don't know what attitudes towards homosexuality are like there and it's not really the same kind of acceptance as acceptance as your preferred gender.

Of course there is also Iran which performs the second highest number of reassignment surgeries in the world, but I wouldn't point to it as a bastion of acceptance in this regard as I believe it's more viewed as a way to deal with homosexuals, and these reassignments are sometimes not wanted. You are into men, so you must be a woman, here you go! Have a reassignment surgery! Certainly not an approach that I think would serve a lesbian such as myself very well. So that might be what you are thinking of.

[thecryptile]

In Iran, homosexuality is a crime agianst Islam punishable by death, while transgendered are considered to be suffering from a medical condition. The Iranian government provides work as prostitutes for post-op transexuals- they have limited marriage contracts (like the Sailor's Wife in Braavos) to keep in accord with Islam.

EDIT: I'm not Persian, I saw this on Global Voices on PBS.

[karaddin]

I actually saw a good article from a person questioning their own kneejerk anti-trans feelings a month or so ago, I'll have to see if I can find that one, it was linked off /r/transgender on reddit.

Ok now I'm home I dug back through my link history on reddit and found the piece in question. It's a question sent in to trans man author Matt Kailey from someone who was trying to do some introspection and figure out why they are transphobic, I'll quote the question but see the full article for the extended answer.

“I am a straight male and consider myself fairly liberal. One of my best friends is openly gay and I have never felt uncomfortable around him. Yet the thought of being around a transgender person is extremely uncomfortable to me and I don’t exactly know why.

“I can understand the scientific reasoning for having a different gender than one’s do-dads would imply, yet some part of me cringes whenever I hear the words “tr***y, transgendered or transsexual” or read anything about it. (Asterisks mine – MK)

“Does this make me a bad person? How can I consider myself a liberal person who respects and judges everyone based on their character if I am uncomfortable with the concept of having a different gender identity? Is there any way for me to come to grips with this and perhaps regain my own self-respect?

“I hope this question was not offensive in any way, and if it was, I apologize wholeheartedly.”

[Robin Of House Hill]

Something mentioned earlier in this thread got me to thinking. Is there any conflict between the openly transgendered and those who are "stealth", as you called it? It would seem that those in the open keep calling public attention to something those who aren't, would find detrimental.

[karaddin]

Something mentioned earlier in this thread got me to thinking. Is there any conflict between the openly transgendered and those who are "stealth", as you called it? It would seem that those in the open keep calling public attention to something those who aren't, would find detrimental.

That's a decent question and I don't actually know the answer. I haven't seen anything around this issue which leads me to think there is not in the way you are suggesting it, in combination that if someone is successful at stealth then any public attention on transgender issues are irrelevant as no one knows the stealthed person is trans. There can be some tension the other way however, those that are open about it and a little activist can be disappointed in those who are stealth, as they are not advancing the cause, they are not doing anything to make things better for those who follow us. I don't think that's a fair criticism, just going through this is hard enough and it has to be a decision each trans person takes.

[Gillio]

I didn't want this thread to be about me, but since a lot of you said nice things anyway I just want to say...Holy fucking shitball walking into work this morning is up there for one of the hardest things I've made myself do.

karaddin, I've brought the laptop to work and am catching up with some threads I've missed over the last few days. I'm glad you made it through your first day. May I say its a privilege to know about your journey, and I thank you for sharing.

[Sci-2]

Trans people and the media: compromise is neither desirable nor possible

The emergence of transsexual and then transgender people as a group since the mid-1960s changed the discourse, particularly in the liberal press. A search of the Guardian and Observer digital archives for the word “transsexual” shows – in general – a shift from medics trying to explain the processes behind transition in the 1970s, to certain radical feminists stereotyping trans people and then attacking those stereotypes for reiterating traditional gender roles (1990s-2000s), to trans people being allowed to respond, and then finally to frame the discussion (2000s-2010s). We cannot, however, draw a history of progress: the latter have not yet superseded the former, but have merely been allowed to compete.

[Lyanna Stark]

Ugh, I knew of some transphobia from feminists like Germaine Greer, but a lot of that stuff is just....mindboggling. And incredibly sad an upsetting. How can these feminists forget the very basics of what they are arguing for?

"One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman"

Simone de Beauvoir

In other words: a trans woman is no different from a cis woman in this regard.

Also, Bindel's explanation of "queer" as "anyone into kinky sex" makes me face palm. How she does not wish to be lumped in with people with "odd" sexual habits. Is this woman born during the Victorian era or something. Good grief, in a world where "50 shades of grey" is the biggest selling novel to even the most vanilla hetero couples, save us from "kinky sex" and "odd" sexual behaviours plz. Won't someone think of the childrenz?

Her defence is also splendid: "Someone was rude to me on the intrawebb, and also wrong!!" Oh noes.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

Ugh, I knew of some transphobia from feminists like Germaine Greer, but a lot of that stuff is just....mindboggling. And incredibly sad an upsetting. How can these feminists forget the very basics of what they are arguing for?

"One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman"

Simone de Beauvoir

In other words: a trans woman is no different from a cis woman in this regard.

Lyanna,

With all due respect, I wonder if perhaps you aren't missing the point a bit about Simone de Beauvoir's criticism of femininity? By arguing that women are "made" and not "born" I am pretty sure Simone is criticizing the process by which society molds females to become "women" in the feminine sense - passive and alienated and as the Other to the active man. Encouraging trans-women to "become" women in that sense would be to encourage their self-alienation, which is I think the opposite point she is trying to make.

As for the thread itself - I'm not sure I have anything substantive to contribute, other than to join the chorus of those applauding karaddin's bravery and openness. From our previous discussions, I think it's quite fair to say I just don't understand transsexuality and what essential bit of maleness or femaleness it is that trans-men and trans-women are hoping to achieve, but I hope that my lack of understanding is never conflated with a lack of support or support for discrimination, because that's certainly not the case.

[Sci-2]

Interesting:

"I like you so much, I know it sound crazy

But I’d have a sex change just so I could have your baby

The roles are reversed, so you got a huge dick, and I got a Prada purse"

- Childish Gambino - Love Is Crazy feat Eugene Cordero

eta: Childish Gambino is Donald Glover's rapper name.

Also, 212 from Azealia Banks is the first time I recall a female rapper referring to lesbian acts:

"Kick it with the bitch who comes from Parisian

She know where I get mine from and the season

Now she wanna lick my plum in the evenin'

And fit that tongue tongue d-deep in

I guess that cunt gettin' eaten"

[karaddin]

There have been other musicians adding lyrics into their songs either admitting to, or essentially outright outing themselves. They certainly thought they were outing themselves with that, but most of it just seems to slip under the radar and no one notices. This applies to both Laura Jane Grace and Julia Serano, although the latter is much much smaller time musician.

Not trying to say either way whether it's a sign of such feelings for Donald Glover.

Lyanna - I think it's feminists, and especially lesbian feminists, pushing this shit that offends me the most. On reading Serano's blog after Sci mentioned it, she has a piece on self identified lesbians who have relations/relationships with women and transmen, which I find is offensive both to myself and to the transmen who are allowing these lesbians to deny their own malehood just to avoid exclusion from the queer female spaces I assume they moved in prior to transition.

[Sci-2]

There have been other musicians adding lyrics into their songs either admitting to, or essentially outright outing themselves.

In hip-hop and rap though? Donald actually talks about this in the Guardian:

So why does black popular culture have such a problem with even the suggestion of homosexuality?

"Dude, I've spent a lot of time trying to figure that out," he says. "Black men struggle with masculinity so much. The idea that we must always be strong really presses us all down – it keeps us from growing. Black culture is a fight. We want to hold on to what we are, but sometimes the things that we are can be totally negative. You have to think: can't we try something new and not be seen as suspect? Can't we hear the n-word someday and not be upset? If a black person called a white person the n-word, would that help a little? We're fucked up. It's a fucked-up situation, but I have to address what's there."

The whole piece shows a mindset that doesn't quite gel with what I'd consider socially progressive beliefs, but it does seem like he's more gay friendly than many other rappers.

[karaddin]

In hip-hop and rap though? Donald actually talks about this in the Guardian:

Not that I know of, no. I actually more meant it in terms of if this is his first little slip, peeking out of the closet that isn't an unprecedented form for it to take. People creating music tend to be pretty passionate about their music, so it's not surprising that their true self leaks out into it.

And I can see your point about the mindset, I was already seeing it yesterday just from the nature of the lyrics and I'm not sure what to think of it.

[Sci-2]

Yeah, it's a bit weird to read about him defending rape jokes. I can even [maybe] allow for the possibility of some dark humor involving rape, but knowing he's worked with Tyler the Creator and Earl who go on and on bragging about raping women in their songs leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Also wanted to mention the article on loneliness in the New Republic, which I mentioned in the health thread, as it notes a good bit of research was one on gay men:

The social experience that most reliably predicted whether an HIV-positive gay man would die quickly, Cole found, was whether or not he was in the closet. Closeted men infected with HIV died an average of two to three years earlier than out men. When Cole dosed AIDS-infected white blood cells with norepinephrine, a stress hormone, the virus replicated itself three to ten times faster than it did in non-dosed cells.

[karaddin]

That was a long one but a good one, thanks Sci. That really reinforces how I feel about going stealth vs living out for myself. I feel that stress each time I meet someone new, I'm immediately worrying about whether I am passing or if they are going to figure it out, despite the fact that at the end of the day I don't care. I'm intending to live open, and if it came up in conversation so I wasn't just outing myself for the sake of outing myself I'm comfortable discussing it. And once that happens I feel a huge relief and calm back down.

[Sci-2]

That was a long one but a good one, thanks Sci. That really reinforces how I feel about going stealth vs living out for myself. I feel that stress each time I meet someone new, I'm immediately worrying about whether I am passing or if they are going to figure it out, despite the fact that at the end of the day I don't care. I'm intending to live open, and if it came up in conversation so I wasn't just outing myself for the sake of outing myself I'm comfortable discussing it. And once that happens I feel a huge relief and calm back down.

Yeah, I can't imagine what it would be like. I know you don't like too much attention drawn to you, but I still am amazed by your courage.

=-=-=

On the Trans 100 - Janet Mock

At the launch event, I also delivered the evening’s closing keynote address. With the Trans 100′s public unveiling today, I want to share the transcript of my remarks below. (I will update this post with footage of the speech when it’s released via the Trans 100 FB page.) In the mean time, I hope my words about the list, about the people, about our glorious community inspires you to be proud, to be visible, to be unapologetic. My grand hope is that trans youth coming-of-age now may be able to turn to this list as a exhibition of who we are, what we can contribute and what’s possible, and just maybe have 100 reasons to feel less alone in this world.