[BOOK SPOILERS] Nitpick without repercussion?

[Sun]

Did anybody pick up Loras' mention of 'French' sleeves when talking to Sansa about her wedding dress. Odd or what!

http://wicnet.tumblr.com/post/49809122246/x

[Cas Stark]

I agree. At this point, I have to wonder whether they are just not that bright (at least in a literary sense) or they think the audience is mainly composed of dunces. Obviously, the fact alone that they have made this milestone in their careers and created a wildly successful TV show would seem to imply that they have some level of intelligence. On the other hand, they simply don't seem to understand or care about how many details both minor and important affect the internal logic of the narrative. When I say narrative, I'm not just talking about the plot of ASoIaF, but of their own show.

Perhaps they don't even fundamentally understand the source material. Or they just don't care that much about preserving the logic of the story through the motivations of its characters and think that simply hitting on major events will suffice, whether or not it really makes sense in the end. If the latter is true, they are severely limiting the potential of the show and making it kind of an intellectual insult to non-readers.

Having a flippant attitude about characterization and narrative logic doesn't really lead to a higher quality of television, and it is kind of antithetical to the spirit of both the books and the show; the idea that it isn't the dragons or magical swords, but the detailed and complex characters that makes ASoIaF so much fun.

There is nothing wrong with condensing certain plot lines or consolidating characters. However, they have shown that they simply don't have faith in the audience to understand the story as it is presented, and as such, they often revert to sloppy broad strokes and trite cliches even where they are unnecessary and detrimental. Some of the changes they have made just can't be justified from a position of storytelling. The only reason they seem to exist is because either B&W are a bit dull, or they sincerely believe that the audience is.

I've been really disappointed this season, I'm not sure why the quality has dropped, if they changed writers or what. I KNOW that D & D "get" a lot of things because for the most part, their casting has been fantastic. I wasn't too sure about Thoros, but he is now one of my few favorite parts of this season. I KNOW that they can translate the book to the screen and do a good job, whether they ad lib or not, because I have seen them do it in season 1 and most of season 2.

So, I'm left confused with a Mance who is a grim general and as I've said and others have said really dumb departures that open plot holes and future problems that could easily have been dealt with just from DIALOGUE, like keeping Willis Tyrell off screen...or finding a better solution to the kings blood than Red Dress tramping through the Riverlands to steal away Gendry, it would have been better actually instead of creating a lot of logic flaws if they had just left that part out of the show or had her use magic of some other sort instead of King's blood....rather than taking a powder on Stannis, inexplicably knowing where and who Gendry is and now meeting the real Arya Stark and not giving a shit...she would be a good hostage for Stannis to at this point since Robb is alive and fighting...that whole thing from a narrative point makes little sense to the overall plot.

I have no problem with making changes for TV...I understood the Theon/Ramsey/Reek thing would be too complicated to introduce for TV and wasn't really necessary anyway to the main thrust of his arc. I understand cutting characters.

I don't understand stupid motivations like throwing away half your army for a random chick from Volantis who doesn't seem herself to care about being married or not. Or Cat committing treason when she thinks all of her children are alive. Or so much screen time to whores and yucking it up with Bronn and Pod instead of more face time for important plot points and characters, or silly scenes with Osha and Meera spatting over skinning rabbits. Ugh.

But, I don't really have an explanation, maybe they've become overwhelmed by the success of the show and aren't paying attention anymore..kind of like when Jos Wheadon stopped writing and directing Buffy?

[paddington]

Gendry being Roberts son wasn't that much of a secret. Considering that gold cloaks were sent to retrive him form Yoren in the book. Also when Ned visited the Armourer in Agot, iirc Jon Aryn and I am pretty sure Stannis had visted before hand. Mel knowing where he is would be more of a problem.

My nitpick here would be that the fact Gendry is with Mel/Stannis maybe a bit of a spoiler for upcoming books.

[ckongo]

But, I don't really have an explanation, maybe they've become overwhelmed by the success of the show and aren't paying attention anymore..kind of like when Jos Wheadon stopped writing and directing Buffy?

If you bring this up on any other thread they will tell you that they are using the same formula as season 1, and that these changes are necessary.

That's BS. My belief is that the writers decided to stray from the books because they want to be writers, not copy/cut/paste workers the way they largely were in season 1.

[victim]

The definition of nitpick: "be overly critical; criticize minor details." This is less of a nitpicking thread and more of an all-out hatred thread. Here's an example of nitpicking:

Roose Bolton said, "You should have learned by now not to overplay your... position." During the beat, he glanced down at Jaime's hand, which suggests he was going to use the idiom 'to overplay your hand.' This is a saying that originated in America around playing cards, likely a variation of poker. I do not believe they play poker in Westeros.

This is not what most of you are doing. If you really hate the show that much, for your sake and ours, please stop watching. If you want to nitpick, nitpick away, but try and actually do it properly. I am sorry if you classify this as repercussions.

[ckongo]

The definition of nitpick: "be overly critical; criticize minor details." This is less of a nitpicking thread and more of an all-out hatred thread. Here's an example of nitpicking:

Roose Bolton said, "You should have learned by now not to overplay your... position." During the beat, he glanced down at Jaime's hand, which suggests he was going to use the idiom 'to overplay your hand.' This is a saying that originated in America around playing cards, likely a variation of poker. I do not believe they play poker in Westeros.

This is not what most of you are doing. If you really hate the show that much, for your sake and ours, please stop watching. If you want to nitpick, nitpick away, but try and actually do it properly. I am sorry if you classify this as repercussions.

I get what you are saying, but it is hard to nitpick when only 4/13 scenes even exist in the books in any form. Some (or a lot) of criticism of the show as a whole is inevitable. This is also the only thread where you can bitch about it freely.

It's true that if you are unhappy with it that it might be good to not watch it, but I watch each episode once (since season 2) out of curiosity mostly to see how far they will stray this episode.

[Cas Stark]

If you bring this up on any other thread they will tell you that they are using the same formula as season 1, and that these changes are necessary.

That's BS. My belief is that the writers decided to stray from the books because they want to be writers, not copy/cut/paste workers the way they largely were in season 1.

Season 1 was more straightforward and easier to adapt, I will give them that, but the fact that subsequent books are harder to adapt doesn't explain flat out bizarre moves like turning Loras into the heir of Highgarden or having Osha and Meera in a spat or the botching of Robb and Cat's story or thugging up the Blackfish...none of that has anything to do with "good TV" or "budget constraints" or even the slimming down of the storyline...that is simply "bad adaptation" at work.

There have definitely been great additions, things that were not in the books that worked well....when they were in keeping with the tone and characterization of the books...when they depart from that is where I see that the show suffers.

[ckongo]

Season 1 was more straightforward and easier to adapt, I will give them that, but the fact that subsequent books are harder to adapt doesn't explain flat out bizarre moves like turning Loras into the heir of Highgarden or having Osha and Meera in a spat or the botching of Robb and Cat's story or thugging up the Blackfish...none of that has anything to do with "good TV" or "budget constraints" or even the slimming down of the storyline...that is simply "bad adaptation" at work.

There have definitely been great additions, things that were not in the books that worked well....when they were in keeping with the tone and characterization of the books...when they depart from that is where I see that the show suffers.

Oh absolutely. I love scenes (although they are getting further apart) where they exist simply because there was no pair of eyes in the books to ever have it occur. Ex: The scene where Cersei goes to Tywin thinking her input his valuable and shares her worries about the Tyrells.

To the OP, perhaps in the future we should titles these threads "Bitch without repercussions" because nitpicking would imply that the majority of the episodes are faithful to the source material. :lol:

[Cas Stark]

Oh absolutely. I love scenes (although they are getting further apart) where they exist simply because there was no pair of eyes in the books to ever have it occur. Ex: The scene where Cersei goes to Tywin thinking her input his valuable and shares her worries about the Tyrells.

To the OP, perhaps in the future we should titles these threads "Bitch without repercussions" because nitpicking would imply that the majority of the episodes are faithful to the source material. :lol:

LOL, yes, I am not sure where one would start "nitpicking" the Mel treking out from Dragonstone to the Riverlands, finding the Brotherhood's secret hiding place, knowing Gendry is Robert's bastard and getting them to abandon all their ethics about, ya know, brotherhood, and selling him to her, packed off in irons, meeting Arya Stark and not caring that she would be a valuable hostage as well for Stannis and leaving her there....just as a recent example.

[Cas Stark]

why are peple expecting them to faithfully adapt the books anyway? this was never the case.

Really? Hmm.

Eddard Stark is dead, check.

Winterfell is burned, check.

Theon is held prisoner by Ramsey Bolton, check.

Stannis lost the battle of Blackwater, check.

Sansa is going to marry Tyrion, check.

Jamie lost his hand, check.

Robb is king in the north, check.

The Lannisters and Tyrells are allied, check.

Renly is dead, check.

Vicerys got a golden crown, check.

Dany has a slave army, check.

The Old Bear was killed in a mutiny, check.

Cersei's children are the product of incest, check.

LF is going to marry Lysa, check.

Seems sort of like a faithful adaptation to me.

[SerMixalot]

why are peple expecting them to faithfully adapt the books anyway? this was never the case.

Noone is, what we are expecting is an outstanding adaptation, not crap and some of the adaptation has been crap.

[SerMixalot]

Really? Hmm.

Eddard Stark is dead, check.

Winterfell is burned, check.

Theon is held prisoner by Ramsey Bolton, check.

Stannis lost the battle of Blackwater, check.

Sansa is going to marry Tyrion, check.

Jamie lost his hand, check.

Robb is king in the north, check.

The Lannisters and Tyrells are allied, check.

Renly is dead, check.

Vicerys got a golden crown, check.

Dany has a slave army, check.

The Old Bear was killed in a mutiny, check.

Cersei's children are the product of incest, check.

LF is going to marry Lysa, check.

Seems sort of like a faithful adaptation to me.

Robb is an intelligent king uncheck

Cat is a three dimensional character uncheck

Brienne is more than a little naive and not yet a brutal killer uncheck

Jon Snow is an interesting character uncheck

Mance Rayder has personality uncheck

Stannis is not p'whipped uncheck

Loras is not Richard Simmons in armor uncheck

Tyrion is a gray character uncheck

Sansa has more than 2 brain cells uncheck

Luwin explained who burned winterfell uncheck

Sam is a Slayer uncheck

Tormund had some personality uncheck

The Tyrells were not in danger of going extinct uncheck

Arya was well on her way to being a bad ass assasin uncheck

Littlefinger was discreet uncheck

Shae was a money grubbing ho' uncheck

Fat Sam couldnt out run Walkers and Wights uncheck

Quorin Halfhand was a badass uncheck

the Wildings had an actual reason to trust Jon Snow uncheck

Noone had the balls to steal Dany's dragons uncheck

A magician able to make multiple copies of himself doesnt bend over to look at 3 dragons uncheck

Hot nurses dont wander around Westeros without getting Raped and Pillaged uncheck

A northern Ho' doesnt become Littlefingers Hand of the Pimp Uncheck

Brienne and Jamie arent expected to walk all the way to KL uncheck

No repetitive and tiresome Theon torture scenes uncheck

Cersei and Tyrion dont go from loving to hating each other on a chapter by chapter basis uncheck

well you get the idea

[Cas Stark]

well you get the idea

No, not really, your list is mostly opinion and nitpicks.

The major characters and plot points are the same as the books.

It's an adaptation of the books, its the same way when they do an adaptation of The Great Gatsby they may eliminate minor characters and scenes and change things around a bit but at the end Gatsby will still be dead and Daisy will go back to her husband.

[Juba]

The HBO show is basically a cliff notes version of the novels--with all the major plot points hit, sure--but with all the nuance, rich historical detail, mystery, and humanity taken out and replaced with cliche, a serious misunderstanding of George's created world, a heavy-handed dumbed-down plot, and richness of character jettisoned for stereotypical blandness.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

We all know it's going to be different, but what's the point of watching a show about your favourite book, portraying your favourite characters if show producers are going to ignore the fact that your character is, for example, a smart young man who has been slowly modeling himself as a leader and portray him as some horny stupid teenager who the only thing is learning is how to have sex? Some changes are ok and some are necessary as book and tv are two completely different formats and what works in books not always works on TV (for example, Sansa's inner thoughts), but some drastic changes aren't ok: those are confusing for both reader and not reader and they are a waste of time instead of giving more time to storylines that matter now and will matter later.

[Cas Stark]

The HBO show is basically a cliff notes version of the novels--with all the major plot points hit, sure--but with all the nuance, rich historical detail, mystery, and humanity taken out and replaced with cliche, a serious misunderstanding of George's created world, a heavy-handed dumbed-down plot, and richness of character jettisoned for stereotypical blandness.

But not always, that is what is frustrating and perplexing. Ned Stark was I thought spot on, same for Tyrion, Tywin, Lysa, Varys, Lord Mormont, King Robert, Theon, all of the Stark children....there are a ton of characters they've hit perfectly, even those we barely saw like Balon Greyjoy were great. I would say this season they've had their first set of real misses...w/Mance being blanded out, I don't like Diana Rigg's QOT.

There are a ton of the major plot elements and key scenes they have hit the mark on almost perfectly. Even a lot of their deviations I thought worked generally well, like Tywin instead of Roose at Harenhall...

But, what I see is increasingly they seem to be deviating from the books in terms of plot AND character just for the hell of it, maybe they've decided its cool to "surprise" the readers or something...and here is where the show falters I think because a lot of their biggest deviations to me don't make show sense, let alone book sense. Or, they aren't even paying attention to continuity and motivation, just more of 'hey, let's put Diana Rigg and Charles Dance in a scene together...neat" and no thought of how their dialogue squares with the story details of show or book...they're looking at things as sort of stand alone scene vignettes and not how it all goes together, or something.

[Wall Builder]

Here's a legitimate nitpick (unless we're to assume that Arya is ambidextrous):

In the first episode in season 1 Arya shoots the bow and arrow right-handed but in this episode she is shooting left-handed.

I'm guessing the first scene was before Maisie learned to do things left-handed, like Arya in the books.

[Raksha the Demon]

Robb is an intelligent king uncheck

Cat is a three dimensional character uncheck

Brienne is more than a little naive and not yet a brutal killer uncheck

Jon Snow is an interesting character uncheck

Mance Rayder has personality uncheck

Stannis is not p'whipped uncheck

Loras is not Richard Simmons in armor uncheck

Tyrion is a gray character uncheck

Sansa has more than 2 brain cells uncheck

Luwin explained who burned winterfell uncheck

Sam is a Slayer uncheck

Tormund had some personality uncheck

The Tyrells were not in danger of going extinct uncheck

Arya was well on her way to being a bad ass assasin uncheck

Littlefinger was discreet uncheck

Shae was a money grubbing ho' uncheck

Fat Sam couldnt out run Walkers and Wights uncheck

Quorin Halfhand was a badass uncheck

the Wildings had an actual reason to trust Jon Snow uncheck

Noone had the balls to steal Dany's dragons uncheck

A magician able to make multiple copies of himself doesnt bend over to look at 3 dragons uncheck

Hot nurses dont wander around Westeros without getting Raped and Pillaged uncheck

A northern Ho' doesnt become Littlefingers Hand of the Pimp Uncheck

Brienne and Jamie arent expected to walk all the way to KL uncheck

No repetitive and tiresome Theon torture scenes uncheck

Cersei and Tyrion dont go from loving to hating each other on a chapter by chapter basis uncheck

well you get the idea

Exactly....

Most of us fell in love with the characters as they were written in the books; not dumbed down or thugified or whitewashed as some of them are by the show writers.

I get the feeling that the directors and writers are having streaks of 'wouldn't it be cool to have this or that character chat with this character'? Sort of TywinItis, or OlennaVirus - the actors are so good and charismatic that half the cast must interact with them. I did enjoy the initial meeting of Tywin and Arya and his making her his cupbearer; but the charm of that relationship rapidly paled when Tywin Lannister, who obsesses over his family's reputation and wants none of them regarded as weak or foolish, reveals his heir's childhood reading disability to a servant girl - it made no sense to me, and spoiled the scene. And a Littlefinger who discusses his anger over being wronged by the Tullys and Brandon Stark and desire to 'fuck them all' with the hired help? A world of No; he just wouldn't do it. Littlefinger attained power by subtlety; not by trying to personally one-up Varys in cryptic conversations.

I suppose we should be grateful that there has been no scene where Olenna invites Tyrion over to the Tyrell bower for tea and enlists him in her Tyrell World Domination plan...yet.

I can thoroughly understand that if you're an HBO AGOT producer, you may not be able to entice Charles Dance and Diana Rigg to commit to two or three seasons without promising them more than one scene per season, but it would have made more sense for the Queen of Thorns to interact with Margaery or Sansa or Loras than Varys and Tywin (in the books, Olenna seemed to try to stay under the radar rather than show her hand openly. Her walking around on Varys' arm must have perked up the antennae of every spy in the Keep; especially those of Littlefinger) And I'd have paid good money for at least one scene with Tywin putting the direct smackdown on Joffrey with one line and a supercilious eyebrow.

I also worry that after enough little alterations to the actual ASoIaF story, the plot in the show will resemble the books a whole lot less instead of just a few minor differences. The writers opted out of having Jeyne Poole be a character with more than one scene with no lines or references; who is going to be Ramsey's Fake Arya, the centerpiece of his public hold over Winterfell, and the goad of Reek/Theon's desperate attempt to escape? (Talisa? why would anyone care about a Stark widow of unknown family, at least the way they cared about Ned's supposed little girl) Since Mance Rayder apparently does not have a pregnant wife, why will Sam and Gilly both be sent South of the Wall - Gilly wouldn't be needed if Jon is only trying to save Maester Aemon.

I'm still trying to figure out why Ros was needed in the show at all in terms of advancing the plot; they got along just fine without her in the books; and they totally scrapped the Tyrion/Tommen/Alayaya/Cersei chain of events from ACOK. They hardly needed to show Joffrey making prostitutes beat each other to show what a despicable little psycho he is...

And I tried not to yowl in horror when TV-Sansa was babbling about inviting her family to her wedding. Book-Sansa was not a child prodigy, but she was bright enough to keep up a pretty solid shield of courtesy and acquiesence while inwardly observing everything that was going on and looking for ways out of persecution and captivity; she even fooled the very perceptive Tyrion. She wouldn't want her surviving family within 1000 miles of her wedding and potential capture by the Crown unless they were coming with an army to kill the Lannisters.

At least Daenerys is not disappointing this season, far from it.

I do enjoy the show; but it is becoming increasingly episodic and some of those episodes make less and less sense. (Talisa? They could have made Jeyne Westerling older and less naive; rather than have a foreign nurse run around unprotected on battlefields and then snag the King In The North) The directors and writers are obviously having to creatively stretch and contort to accomodate GRRM's increasingly large cast of characters; and it's showing. In the books, all the different viewpoints, cultures, perspectives were fascinating because we could see inside their heads or from the heads of people near them; but on the show, it's just vignette after vignette with clever lines and intrigue and minimal action (which is why I so enjoyed Daenerys' going 'Dracarys' on the slavemasters with the Unsullied and Drogon; and why I'm looking forward to some bear pit action on Sunday).

Quorin, we hardly knew ye....But the fellow in the books by that name was Epic BadAss! The Blackfish might bemoan his nephew's foolishness, but he's not going to keep threatening to slap around his liege-lord, even if Edmure is an annoying FloppyFish; he's still Hoster's son and Brynden owes him his allegiance, not blows...

[SerMixalot]

No, not really, your list is mostly opinion and nitpicks.

The major characters and plot points are the same as the books.

It's an adaptation of the books, its the same way when they do an adaptation of The Great Gatsby they may eliminate minor characters and scenes and change things around a bit but at the end Gatsby will still be dead and Daisy will go back to her husband.

See this is where you are simply wrong. The characters are not the same, the plot points are not the same, because they are more than just names on paper or actions that occur. THe RW has major meaning BECAUSE we feel for the Starks, esp. Robb and Cat. Their TV equivalents are at best not compelling and at worst, terrible people who will get what they richly deserve. THERE is the difference. Jon Snow' story arc this season SHOULD be about destroying the myth of the Wildings and bringing sympathy to the viewer to that group of people. Hell even Ygritte doesnt like the Wildings. There is nothing sympathetic or appealling about the Wildings. There most charismatic leaders are either drab (Mance) or unpleasant (Tormund). Jon Snow has no reason to like these people. Therefore Jon Snow is NOT the same character, even if they share a name. I have said this for over a year. There is nothing in TV Jon Snow that demonstrates his worth to shortly be elected to LC. He has done nothing. Arya becomes a FM after suffering through many nasty adventures and more importantly losing her identity step by step, her name, her appearance all change dramatically over her arc. Not much of that has happened. She is showing no growth, thus making her change into a FM meaningless.

[boojam]

See this is where you are simply wrong. The characters are not the same, the plot points are not the same, because they are more than just names on paper or actions that occur. THe RW has major meaning BECAUSE we feel for the Starks, esp. Robb and Cat. Their TV equivalents are at best not compelling and at worst, terrible people who will get what they richly deserve. THERE is the difference. Jon Snow' story arc this season SHOULD be about destroying the myth of the Wildings and bringing sympathy to the viewer to that group of people. Hell even Ygritte doesnt like the Wildings. There is nothing sympathetic or appealling about the Wildings. There most charismatic leaders are either drab (Mance) or unpleasant (Tormund). Jon Snow has no reason to like these people. Therefore Jon Snow is NOT the same character, even if they share a name. I have said this for over a year. There is nothing in TV Jon Snow that demonstrates his worth to shortly be elected to LC. He has done nothing. Arya becomes a FM after suffering through many nasty adventures and more importantly losing her identity step by step, her name, her appearance all change dramatically over her arc. Not much of that has happened. She is showing no growth, thus making her change into a FM meaningless.

Mance does not seem drab to me.

Tormund is pleasant enough for being an amalgam of wilding characters.

From book to page , to my eye I see some difference , one, does not see a huge perturbation to me, the global story is pretty much there , except for some small unexplained inventions,two, novel and narrative drama , I like, in different ways.

Must admit going to have to get used whole rework starting season 5.