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sansatyrell

[SPOILERS] Tyrion and Sansa

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Just for the record, I'd like to say that I don't blame Tyrion for their situation. In fact I thought it was sweet that he wanted to treat her well (although terribly unrealistic of him to expect her to respond positively). My beef (as I feel like I mentioned, pages ago at this point), is that people continue to call Sansa nasty names for not running into Tyrion's arms, or being SO thankful that he's a decent guy. She's been through hell and back, and is now getting forced to marry a member of the family who put her through that hell.

QFT! :cheers:

I facepalmed when he said that in the dark he could be her Knight of Flowers. Really now? I get he's trying to be nice but that is a dumb thing to say.

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No, arranged marriages are marriages that benefit both families, or are in accordance with some binding custom, the interests of the individuals involved be damned. Loras isn't benefitting by marrying Cersei, Ned/Catelyn didn't benefit by marrying each other, etc.. They did it because they were expected/told to.

Exactly. How can people assume that a young person is nothing but happy when being sold by his or her own family for the sake of that family, how can people believe that a union that benefits "the family" is automatically good for the young person concerned!! This is denying any individuality to a child, making her or him a business asset for the sake of everyone but her- or himself.

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But in terms of a marriage. Imagine Saddam Hussein had killed your family and you were forced to marry his nice (but had kept you prisoner uncle, who had also helped consolidate Saddam's power), how can anyone expect that to work well. Apart from in romantic fiction of course.

Uh, well, maybe like when Henry V married Catherine after beating up on her father for awhile? Those times are not like now. Marriages among nobility were understood to very often be for politically pragmatic reasons rather than love, to strengthen dynastic ties or whatever, so to ask "how would you like to marry Saddam Hussein" , in the modern context misses the mark completely.

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and then not really acknowledge Sansa saving Dontos despite her being a hostage under constant threat of beatings and worse at the time. Some people just have blinders on when it comes to particular characters that they develop an initial distaste for, I suppose.

Sansa' problem is a perceived lack of maturity, like she's still living in fantasy worlds rather than realities. Yes, she helped Ser Dontos. Then she started thinking of it as a Florian and Jonquil adventure. Sansa isn't evil, nor even nasty, at least not after AOGT, so hatred would seem really out of line to me. On the other hand, most every time I read one of her chapters, the overwhelming thought running through my head is "how about growing the fuck up, girl?"

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Uh, well, maybe like when Henry V married Catherine after beating up on her father for awhile? Those times are not like now. Marriages among nobility were understood to very often be for politically pragmatic reasons rather than love, to strengthen dynastic ties or whatever, so to ask "how would you like to marry Saddam Hussein" , in the modern context misses the mark completely.

Sansa was not raised expecting to marry into the murderers of her family.

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Sansa was not raised expecting to marry into the murderers of her family.

No, I'm sure that Catherine didn't plan on marrying the guy who pillaged her country,either. But I'll bet both of them were aware that they were likely going to be married via arranged marriages. So while she may not have liked who she was marrying, objections based on the concept of the arranged marriage itself is purely a function of us imposing our morality and expectations into a world where they are foreign.

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is purely a function of us imposing our morality and expectations into a world where they are foreign.

And yet that is what people do with all characters. People condemn Viserys for abusing and selling Dany off, yet I doubt that Westeros/Essos has strict child abuse laws so should we just accept that Viserys was likely a swell guy. People hate and revile dwarfs in Westeros, thus we shouldn't feel any sympathy for Tyrion as how he is not being mistreated according his society instead Tywin is being overwhelming generous through his continual support of Tyrion. etc.

Moreover, Tyrion and Sansa is not an "arranged marriage" instead it is simply a "forced marriage" which in Westeros society is completely different from each other. As see in Luwin's discussions regarding Lady Hornwood's and Ramsay's marriage of how it is likely not valid and it was so wrong Rodrick Cassel goes to kill Ramsay over it.

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But I'll bet both of them were aware that they were likely going to be married via arranged marriages. So while she may not have liked who she was marrying, objections based on the concept of the arranged marriage itself is purely a function of us imposing our morality and expectations into a world where they are foreign.

Er, no. There's a world of difference between a marriage arranged by her parents, which (given who her parents are) she would expect to be made with both her interests and the interests of her family (and not all families do it like that, obviously, but that's irrelevant to Sansa's experience and expectations), and her enemies forcing her to marry into their house at sword point.

And yet that is what people do with all characters. People condemn Viserys for abusing and selling Dany off, yet I doubt that Westeros/Essos has strict child abuse laws so should we just accept that Viserys was likely a swell guy. People hate and revile dwarfs in Westeros, thus we shouldn't feel any sympathy for Tyrion as how he is not being mistreated according his society instead Tywin is being overwhelming generous through his continual support of Tyrion. etc.

Yeah, by the same logic the readers should condemn Arya for not conforming to her expected societal role.

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Just for the record, I'd like to say that I don't blame Tyrion for their situation. In fact I thought it was sweet that he wanted to treat her well (although terribly unrealistic of him to expect her to respond positively). My beef (as I feel like I mentioned, pages ago at this point), is that people continue to call Sansa nasty names for not running into Tyrion's arms, or being SO thankful that he's a decent guy. She's been through hell and back, and is now getting forced to marry a member of the family who put her through that hell.

:agree: :agree:

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There is no either/or distinction between forced and arranged marriages. Arranged marriages can be forced, and I think most of Westeros's arranged marriages can be classified as such because the party to be married lacks an effective choice to consent. Thus the discussion is of degrees of force or a spectrum of force rather than of forced or arranged.

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There is no either/or distinction between forced and arranged marriages. Arranged marriages can be forced, and I think most of Westeros's arranged marriages can be classified as such because the party to be married lacks an effective choice to consent. Thus the discussion is of degrees of force or a spectrum of force rather than of forced or arranged.

Within Westeros there is a separation between what their denizens consider Arranged or Force Marriages. Simply, what happened with Sansa was a Forced Marriage.

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I like Tyrion, but I appreciate him as a flawed character. The truth of Tyrion's 'offer' is that it doesn't make Sansa feel any better or give her any kind of real choice... that's clear in her POV.

Haha, you can claim that to make yourself seem less biased but your posts paint a different picture. We've seen you post some very one sided things against Tyrion, and the sheer number of posts would point to thr contrary.

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Just for the record, I'd like to say that I don't blame Tyrion for their situation. In fact I thought it was sweet that he wanted to treat her well (although terribly unrealistic of him to expect her to respond positively). My beef (as I feel like I mentioned, pages ago at this point), is that people continue to call Sansa nasty names for not running into Tyrion's arms, or being SO thankful that he's a decent guy. She's been through hell and back, and is now getting forced to marry a member of the family who put her through that hell.

That's a good post. Although I think very few reasonable posters would expect Sansa to go running into Tyrions arms.

As someone who didn't respect Sansa for a long while, my issues had nothing to do with how she regarded Tyrion. I found her character frustrating for different reasons. By far my biggest problem with her was that she was a poor older sister. I thought running off to Cersei came across as a bit spoiled and selfish. I also found her lack of action in ACOK frustrating, although it's completely reasonable given her situation in KL. I understand none of these things are that bad and they are especially excusable for an 11 year old but they influence how we stand on a character.

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That's a good post. Although I think very few reasonable posters would expect Sansa to go running into Tyrions arms.

As someone who didn't respect Sansa for a long while, my issues had nothing to do with how she regarded Tyrion. I found her character frustrating for different reasons. By far my biggest problem with her was that she was a poor older sister. I thought running off to Cersei came across as a bit spoiled and selfish. I also found her lack of action in ACOK frustrating, although it's completely reasonable given her situation in KL. I understand none of these things are that bad and they are especially excusable for an 11 year old but they influence how we stand on a character.

Well said. I do not think her not wanting to marry Tyrion is blameworthy -- why would she? If her reasoning/attitude is "look, thank you for being kind to me, but I'm not in the mood to marry anyone -- my family is in danger, I'm a prisoner, this is being done without my family's consent, and the whole idea pisses me off", that's fine. I'd much prefer to read some anger and directness than I would her retreats into fantasy, and I think people would respect that. Particularly if it is accompanied by statements to Tyrion recognizing that he's being a decent guy about this. That would be a sign of maturity.

But if it's "I don't want to marry this ugly little dwarf, I want to marry a handsome Highgarden prince", then it's the self-centeredness/shallowness that will bug people. And I got the sense from book Sansa at least that a handsome Tyrion would have been fine, because she seemed perfectly fine with marrying Loras or Willas. It wasn't the fact of the marriage that bothered her, but who she was marrying.

Again, this doesn't make her a horrible person. It makes her an immature, somewhat self-centered 12/13 year old girl.. And lots of people don't find that all that likeable, which is perfectly understandable.

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Within Westeros there is a separation between what their denizens consider Arranged or Force Marriages. Simply, what happened with Sansa was a Forced Marriage.

There is a difference between a marriage to which the family consents, and one that it doesn't. That much is made clear by Robb's reaction to hearing about Sansa getting married. I don't know if that's the distinction you're drawing, or not. But if it is, that distinction isn't really relevant, because the individual doesn't have a real choice either way.

If your distinction between "arranged" and "forced" is that the person likes the match, I think that distinction does not exist in Westeros. The issue was that nobility didn't often live in sufficiently close proximity to potential matches to develop a relationship, and broadband connections were too unreliable for them to Skype, text, or even post on Facebook. So, parents would arrange marriages with suitable children of other nobility, and their children would be expected to comply as part of their duty. It's the tradeoff for otherwise living better than 99% of the population. Demanding that Robb marry a Frey daughter as the price for crossing the Twins was not something unheard of. He didn't even meet her, and had no idea whether he'd like her or not. But, marriage is a duty, so he did it. And Ned/Catelyn, etc. etc. etc.

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Well said. I do not think her not wanting to marry Tyrion is blameworthy -- why would she? If her reasoning/attitude is "look, thank you for being kind to me, but I'm not in the mood to marry anyone -- my family is in danger, I'm a prisoner, this is being done without my family's consent, and the whole idea pisses me off", that's fine. I'd much prefer to read some anger and directness than I would her retreats into fantasy, and I think people would respect that. Particularly if it is accompanied by statements to Tyrion recognizing that he's being a decent guy about this. That would be a sign of maturity.

But if it's "I don't want to marry this ugly little dwarf, I want to marry a handsome Highgarden prince", then it's the self-centeredness/shallowness that will bug people. And I got the sense from book Sansa at least that a handsome Tyrion would have been fine, because she seemed perfectly fine with marrying Loras or Willas. It wasn't the fact of the marriage that bothered her, but who she was marrying.

Again, this doesn't make her a horrible person. It makes her an immature, somewhat self-centered 12/13 year old girl.. And lots of people don't find that all that likeable, which is perfectly understandable.

Show me some 12/13-year-old girls who would prefer to marry an extremely ugly dwarf over a normal-looking lame man or a good-looking young man only four years older than oneself; I'd like to meet this paragon of maturity. Add to that the fact that Sansa did not want to marry a Lannister at all, tried to run away physically from the marriage and was told she would be dragged to the altar if she did not walk there on her own, and you have a picture, in the book, of a victim, not a shallow, self-centered girl.

When Sansa was given, by her prospective ugly dwarf bridegroom, the choice to marry his far more attractive non-dwarf cousin, Sansa made a decision based on the character, not the looks, of the two men, and chose ugly Tyrion, since she knew that he had been kind to her and pretty Lancel certainly had not been kind. It was still a decision between two evils; rather than the choice, her choice, that Sansa had been given, with no coercion, whether to marry the crippled but supposedly gentle and intelligent Willas Tyrell.

Yes, Sansa still bemoaned that she was being forced to marry an extremely ugly dwarf. I would have too. It's human nature, not evidence of a shallow, superficial characer. Arya has displayed similar judgments based on physical appearances; complaining about being made to escort "fat" Prince Tommen to the feast in AGOT. Sansa never spoke her prejudice, never said to anyone that she found Tyrion ugly; not even to Littlefinger or her aunt Lysa, who encouraged her to think and speak poorly of Tyrion. A superficial/shallow girl would have complained to someone, especially after being taken out of the Lannisters' power, about Tyrion's looks. Sansa, looking at naked Tyrion as he is trying to seduce her, feels pity for him. In her place, at almost 13, I would not have been able to veil my horror and revulsion at my extremely ugly dwarf bridegroom even slightly, or feel any pity for him.

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Show me some 12/13-year-old girls who would prefer to marry an extremely ugly dwarf over a normal-looking lame man or a good-looking young man only four years older than oneself; I'd like to meet this paragon of maturity.

You missed the point. I specifically said that I did not blame her for not wanting to marry Tyrion. I said it would be a sign of maturity if she did not want him as a husband but still appreciated, and expressed, the fact that he was as kind to her as circumstances permitted. What I do think makes her look badly is being so excited about the possibility of marrying Loras. Given the Lannister/Tyrell alliance, what has happened to her family, etc.., being excited about Loras Tyrell and harrumphing about not having good dressmakers in KL looks shallow and self-centered.

Now, maybe all that is to be expected from a 13 year old girl. But regardless, lots and lots of viewers are not going to be very interested in "the Adventures of an Immature and Relatively Self-centered 13 Year Old, and What She Thinks About Dresses." Not when far more interesting (to most people) things are happening elsewhere.

Add to that the fact that Sansa did not want to marry a Lannister at all, tried to run away physically from the marriage and was told she would be dragged to the altar if she did not walk there on her own, and you have a picture, in the book, of a victim, not a shallow, self-centered girl.

She can be both a victim, and shallow and self-centered. They are in no sense mutually exclusive. And as I've stated before, one of her least attractive qualities is feeling sorry for herself. That's not something we see much of in the series from other characters, so it stands out. One place we did see it was with Sam first arriving at the Wall, and I frankly shared some of the negative reactions towards him while he was doing that. What happened to him was neither right nor fair, but that doesn't make a perpetual "woe is me" outlook, and curling up in a ball, any more attractive.

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The Lannisters are the ones who have destroyed her family and abused her, not the Tyrells, the Tyrells, whether they have meant it sincerely or not, have been nice to her, so on that basis alone she would be more excited to marry a Tyrell than a Lannister.

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You missed the point. I specifically said that I did not blame her for not wanting to marry Tyrion. I said it would be a sign of maturity if she did not want him as a husband but still appreciated, and expressed, the fact that he was as kind to her as circumstances permitted. What I do think makes her look badly is being so excited about the possibility of marrying Loras. Given the Lannister/Tyrell alliance, what has happened to her family, etc.., being excited about Loras Tyrell and harrumphing about not having good dressmakers in KL looks shallow and self-centered.

Seeing how the Tyrells didn't kill her father, try to kill her younger brother, and repeatedly have her beaten there is a world's difference between marrying one of them and a Lannister.

She can be both a victim, and shallow and self-centered. They are in no sense mutually exclusive. And as I've stated before, one of her least attractive qualities is feeling sorry for herself. That's not something we see much of in the series from other characters, so it stands out.

You mean like how Arya whines about her mother used to tell her that she should try washing and actually apply herself to her lessons? Or Bran constantly talking about he can no longer be a knight? Or how Jon repeatedly cries how despite growing up better then 99% of Westeros one time he wasn't able to sit with the king? Or how Jaime has a crying fit because people gave him an unflattering nickname while leaving him unharmed otherwise? Or how Stannis complains that Robert gave Renly Storm's End and him Dragonstone when didn't need to do either? Tyrion about almost every single thing? Theon about how his dad doesn't like him and Ned didn't welcome him into his family?

Truly, characters feeling self pity is soley a Sansa thing besides all those other POVs.

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The Lannisters are the ones who have destroyed her family and abused her, not the Tyrells, the Tyrells, whether they have meant it sincerely or not, have been nice to her, so on that basis alone she would be more excited to marry a Tyrell than a Lannister.

What part of "I do not think her not wanting to marry Tyrion is blameworthy" did you not comprehend?

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