[BOOK SPOILERS] Nitpick without repercussion?

[JaTyAdo]

You seem intent on being offended by things that you shouldn't be offended by. How many women in medieval cultures real and imagined were married off to men they were scared of, disgusted by, etc? You think Walder Frey's child bride wants to have sex with a 90 year old man? I am not saying it was right, but in that culture a wife's consent was hardly something any man would consider. In this day and age most people are educated on what constitutes consent. But in medieval cultures? No. Women were little more than property with few exceptions. I don't like it, and I AM a woman - but the depiction is realistic. Tyrion is actually rare in seeking his wife's consent. How many other men would have just taken her and not thought they were doing anything bad? It's an entirely different culture and men were raised to an entirely different way of thinking about women.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: Rape is such an exaggeration.

i also would have prefered a woman, fellow prisoner, show up in theons cell to help him escape, they escape together, get hunted by ramsey and she is killed and then he's taken back...than 'boy' posing as a janitor, then killing his own men, etc., etc. and now we had the two crazy sadistic jewelry laden helpers from this week to put it way over the top.

:agree: So much better than this endless torture. I know that the torture scenes are important but they could have at least find ways to limit them. It's very unappealing.

[teemo]

This last week would have been much better if a sweet and frightened girl came into release Theon, saying that she got away from the boy and they could escape. Hell, if they wanted her to be naked from Ramsay's torture, go ahead with it, just don't make it sexy. The two run off, Ramsay chases them down in typical fashion with his dogs. Something terrible happens to the girl and then Ramsay brings back Theon and then the truly horrifying castration happens.

My issue with last week was less with the gratuitous nudity (it's an issue though) and more with the fact that these two hot, naked giggly scheming girls come to fuck Theon and even bring out the "religious girl" cliche. Not only that, but they seem to be having a great time helping out Ramsay the ladies man. When I read some of the stuff about Ramsay I was a bit frightened. This, however, took me out of the mood entirely. One of the worst parts is that it was filmed in a way where the audience was supposed to be aroused by this scene (a weird way to meet boob quota), which is all kinds of wrong. That takes me out of being terrified and turns me into, "really? this is supposed to frighten me?" They cheapened the whole scene to meet boob quota.

[JaTyAdo]

Oh I completely forgot.. Talisa is pregnant?! But what about the will?! So Robb would not name Jon Snow his heir? It's not the theory that I'm worried about. I'm more concerned about the show cutting another really good scene from the book, Robb telling Catelyn about his will:

“Young, and a king,” he said. “A king must have an heir. If I should die in my next battle, the kingdom must not die with me. By law Sansa is next in line of succession, so Winterfell and the north would pass to her.” His mouth tightened. “To her, and her lord husband. Tyrion Lannister. I cannot allow that. I will not allow that. That dwarf must never have the north.”

“No,” Catelyn agreed. “You must name another heir, until such time as Jeyne gives you a son.” She considered a moment. “Your father’s father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They had three daughters, all of whom wed Vale lordlings. A Waynwood and a Corbray, for certain. The youngest... it might have been a Templeton, but...”

“Mother.” There was a sharpness in Robb’s tone."You forget. My father had four sons.”

She had not forgotten; she had not wanted to look at it, yet there it was. “A Snow is not a Stark.”

“Jon’s more a Stark than some lordlings from the Vale who have never so much as set eyes on Winterfell.”

“If Jon is a brother of the Night’s Watch, sworn to take no wife and hold no lands. Those who take the black serve for life.”

“So do the knights of the Kingsguard. That did not stop the Lannisters from stripping the white cloaks from Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Boros Blount when they had no more use for them. If I send the Watch a hundred men in Jon’s place, I’ll wager they find some way to release him from his vows.”

He is set on this. Catelyn knew how stubborn her son could be. “A bastard cannot inherit.”

“Not unless he’s legitimized by a royal decree,” said Robb. “There is more precedent for that than for releasing a Sworn Brother from his oath.”

“Precedent,” she said bitterly. “Yes, Aegon the Fourth legitimized all his bastards on his deathbed. And how much pain, grief, war, and murder grew from that? I know you trust Jon. But can you trust his sons? Or their sons? The Blackfyre pretenders troubled the Targaryens for five generations, until Barristan the Bold slew the last of them on the Stepstones. If you make Jon

legitimate, there is no way to turn him bastard again. Should he wed and breed, any sons you may have by Jeyne will never be safe.”

“Jon would never harm a son of mine.”

“No more than Theon Greyjoy would harm Bran or Rickon?”

Grey Wind leapt up atop King Tristifer’s crypt, his teeth bared. Robb’s own face was cold. “That is as cruel as it is unfair. Jon is no Theon.”

“So you pray. Have you considered your sisters? What of their rights? I agree that the north must not be permitted to pass to the imp, but what of Arya? By law, she comes after Sansa... your own sister, trueborn...”

“... and dead. No one has seen or heard of Arya since they cut Father’s head off. Why do you lie to yourself? Arya’s gone, the same as Bran and Rickon, and they’ll kill Sansa too once the dwarf gets a child from her. Jon is the only brother that remains to me. Should I die without issue, I want him to succeed me as King in the North. I had hoped you would support my choice.”

“I cannot,” she said. “In all else, Robb. In everything. But not in this... this folly. Do not ask it.”

“I don’t have to. I’m the king.” Robb turned and walked off, Grey Wind bounding down from the tomb and loping after him.

These scene could not just make the audience see Robb in a different light. It could establish the relationship of Robb and his direwolf again to the viewers...

[Minsc]

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: Rape is such an exaggeration.

No it isn't, just because their society sees nothing wrong with it doesn't stop it from being rape. Just like how just because in Westeros it is common for parents to leave their dwarf babies in the wildness to die doesn't make that a type of murder. Nor does the fact that Tywin refrain from doing that speak highly of him and his treatment of Tyrion.

[JaTyAdo]

This last week would have been much better if a sweet and frightened girl came into release Theon, saying that she got away from the boy and they could escape. Hell, if they wanted her to be naked from Ramsay's torture, go ahead with it, just don't make it sexy. The two run off, Ramsay chases them down in typical fashion with his dogs. Something terrible happens to the girl and then Ramsay brings back Theon and then the truly horrifying castration happens.

My issue with last week was less with the gratuitous nudity (it's an issue though) and more with the fact that these two hot, naked giggly scheming girls come to fuck Theon and even bring out the "religious girl" cliche. Not only that, but they seem to be having a great time helping out Ramsay the ladies man. When I read some of the stuff about Ramsay I was a bit frightened. This, however, took me out of the mood entirely. One of the worst parts is that it was filmed in a way where the audience was supposed to be aroused by this scene (a weird way to meet boob quota), which is all kinds of wrong. That takes me out of being terrified and turns me into, "really? this is supposed to frighten me?" They cheapened the whole scene to meet boob quota.

:agree:

[JaTyAdo]

No it isn't, just because their society sees nothing wrong with it doesn't stop it from being rape. Just like how just because in Westeros it is common for parents to leave their dwarf babies in the wildness to die doesn't make that a type of murder. Nor does the fact that Tywin refrain from doing that speak highly of him and his treatment of Tyrion.

:huh: ..so most men in Westeros commited rape? Is that what you mean?

[Minsc]

:huh: ..so most men in Westeros commited rape? Is that what you mean?

'

If they have sex with their unwilling wives, yes. Just like how it was rape when Robert drunkenly had sex with Cersei when she didn't want to have sex with him. We have no indication that all men in Westeros are savage brutes that have sex with their wives when their wives clearly don't want to have sex. In how, I doubt Ned would force Catelyn to have sex if he knew she wasn't in the mood.

[JaTyAdo]

'

If they have sex with their unwilling wives, yes. Just like how it was rape when Robert drunkenly had sex with Cersei when she didn't want to have sex with him. We have no indication that all men in Westeros are savage brutes that have sex with their wives when their wives clearly don't want to have sex. In how, I doubt Ned would force Catelyn to have sex if he knew she wasn't in the mood.

Oh yes, this one I agree.. But I don't get how Tyrion would want to rape Sansa..when he didn't even have sex with her and to call it rape when that time it's normal for a man to want to fuck your wife when you're married... and just like what Ampris said, it's already rare for Tyrion to actually ask for Sansa's consent... I'm not whitewashing Tyrion btw.. I'm aware of the evil things he did and he's the type of man who has the potential to rape someone..

[JaTyAdo]

Reading the whole thread made me wish that we guys just became the writer of the show.. I wouldn't even mind if it's without payment for the sake of a good adaptation of ASOIAF..

[Minsc]

Oh yes, this one I agree.. But I don't get how Tyrion would want to rape Sansa..when he didn't even have sex with her and to call it rape when that time it's normal for a man to want to fuck your wife when you're married... and just like what Ampris said, it's already rare for Tyrion to actually ask for Sansa's consent... I'm not whitewashing Tyrion btw.. I'm aware of the evil things he did and he's the type of man who has the potential to rape someone..

The issue is that Tyrion was fully willing to go through with the bedding(which would have been rape) until he fully saw how terrified she was at the the thought. Somehow, the fact that she was crying to the entire ceremony and feast or the fact that he personally knew she didn't want him ever led him to decide not to go forward with the bedding until after they had undressed and the terror was completely apparent.

[JaTyAdo]

The issue is that Tyrion was fully willing to go through with the bedding(which would have been rape) until he fully saw how terrified she was at the the thought. Somehow, the fact that she was crying to the entire ceremony and feast or the fact that he personally knew she didn't want him ever led him to decide not to go forward with the bedding until after they had undressed and the terror was completely apparent.

Alright then it is indeed rape.. but what I'm most bothered about is how people seems to resent him for that when that's how things work during that time..It's pretty clear to me feminism of modern age wouldn't work in their culture.. but you're right, rape is still rape..

[Minsc]

Alright then it is indeed rape.. but what I'm most bothered about is how people seems to resent him for that when that's how things work during that time..It's pretty clear to me feminism of modern age wouldn't work in their culture.. but you're right, rape is still rape..

People during that time mistreated dwarfs, yet people resent Tywin for mistreating the dwarf Tyrion.

[WardenOfTheNerds]

EDIT: I realized this is the thread where i already diverged the topic for like 50 posts of argument about Tyrion/Shae so I deleted the original post.

[Minsc]

I didn't think he was willing to go through with the bedding, when i was reading. The way i see it, he never gave it much thought. The whole ceremony he was brooding on his hatred towards Tywin and Joffrey and just got more and more drunk, I don't see why people think he would be happy for this marriage. Yes he was aroused by her, and felt desire. Well, she's supposed to be super hot, and he can't really control his erection can he? People need to take into account how this marriage got created. Tyrion told Sansa that he would happily back off if she wanted, and warned her that Tywin would force her into marrying Lancel then. The line "That's cruel father, even for you" is actually in the book, it's not part of the show whitewashing theme. Which btw. i agree it totally exists, and i believe the show viewers should totally see how Tyrion threatens the smiths, how he kills Symon, and generally that he can as ruthless as his despised father. But in this case, well, I just really think he never relished marrying someone other than one of his whores.

The fact of the matter at the end of Tyrion discussion with Tywin and Kevin he was won over into marrying Sansa for her claim, in how having Winterfell gave him a queer chill. Moreover, you have being angry all the time after the wedding in how Sansa will not open her legs for him which wouldn't exist if he never cared about the marriage or the sex.

[Dove]

It's a little bit dissonant when people say "oh you can't apply our modern social values to analysis of the characters' actions" in defense of Tyrion and then turn around and condemn Theon for allowing the murder of two peasant boys, who would be considered nothing in Westerosi eyes. Basically, it's a slippery slope that a lot of people use to justify their favorite character's actions but not the ones they like.

I don't have any real stake in this convo or have anything, for the record, just pointin' that out~. 'Cause I've seen that exact statement crop up about the exact same thing here (Tyrion & Sansa's marriage) a couple times and it always bugs me a little bit. In my eyes it's the grayness and flaws of the characters that make them truly interesting, so I've never understood the urge to defend or justify some of their more morally questionable actions.

[Minsc]

It's a little bit dissonant when people say "oh you can't apply our modern social values to analysis of the characters' actions" in defense of Tyrion and then turn around and condemn Theon for allowing the murder of two peasant boys, who would be considered nothing in Westerosi eyes. Basically, it's a slippery slope that a lot of people use to justify their favorite character's actions but not the ones they like.

I don't have any real stake in this convo or have anything, for the record, just pointin' that out~. 'Cause I've seen that exact statement crop up about the exact same thing here (Tyrion & Sansa's marriage) a couple times and it always bugs me a little bit. In my eyes it's the grayness and flaws of the characters that make them truly interesting, so I've never understood the urge to defend or justify some of their more morally questionable actions.

Almost everyone on the forums agrees that Theon's actions of allowing the murder of the Miller's Children was wrong. Quite frankly, we still have a number of people that will refuse to ever forgive him for that act and argue that it justifies Ramsay's torture of him. Similarly, many fans refuse to feel sorry for Jaime for his actions against Bran. Thus, it is not only Tyrion who gets stuck with this treatment.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Although we can't apply our modern views of morality on GoT characters, we still can't ignore the context. Theon didn't kill two random kids just because he was would enjoy it: he tried to take over Winterfell, whatever his reasons were, and he realised that the two children escaped. If people had found out about this, they would go and look for them, and gather to restore the power back to Bran. Killing the two kids, or pretend that he did, was a way to discourage future rebels and assure himself as king or lord. Something similar we find out in book 5, when we knew that "apparently", a baby was also switched while an innocent baby was brutally murdered. Let's say the whole thing is true, Varys actions look terrible if one JUST looks at the murder, but his motivations are to save the rightful heir to eventually restore a dynasty back in power with a more proper King that the obese neglectful drunk that once sat on the Throne. This is something that Stannis also tried to do with Edmure, and he even told Davos that it was for a greater good. Davos discouraging him means that the murder of kids is also immoral and condemnable, something Stannis knew well, but he confessed HAD to do.

And can we blame Tywin for being mad at having Tyrion as son? Not only he was "cursed" with a dwarf as son, but this also caused him to lose his wife. For Tywin, the birth of Tyrion was a punishment, and it was a punishment because dwarfs are meant to be looked as such in their society. Yet, not all fathers behave like this. Ned loves his "bastard", and also did Robert (when he was still interested on them), and even wanted to bring Mya to court. And Stannis does see Shireen as his rightful heir despite the greyscale.

[Dove]

Almost everyone on the forums agrees that Theon's actions of allowing the murder of the Miller's Children was wrong. Quite frankly, we still have a number of people that will refuse to ever forgive him for that act and argue that it justifies Ramsay's torture of him. Similarly, many fans refuse to feel sorry for Jaime for his actions against Bran. Thus, it is not only Tyrion who gets stuck with this treatment.

Oh, definitely, you see it in discussions involving quite a few different characters - those were just the two most immediate examples to spring to mind. I've just always thought it was silly to use the "well we can't judge them by our standards" angle to defend Character A's actions as morally acceptable/even good, but then wave that angle away when it comes to Character B as it seems to happen in a lot of cases. Some people just can't help but develop a blind spot for characters they strongly like or dislike, it seems.

[Dragon greyscale]

Asoiaf does NOT exist in a cultural vacuum. The fact that it's loosely based on medieval Europe does not make it a definitive document of the morals of medieval Europe (I won't even start about the obvious fact that it's fantasy...a genre that can take many liberties vis a vis "realism".)

bottom line: It's written and read by modern people. Period.

Rape is rape, no need for contrived excuses about the morals of the (nonexistent) times.

[Ravi Seaworth]

Oh, definitely, you see it in discussions involving quite a few different characters - those were just the two most immediate examples to spring to mind. I've just always thought it was silly to use the "well we can't judge them by our standards" angle to defend Character A's actions as morally acceptable/even good, but then wave that angle away when it comes to Character B as it seems to happen in a lot of cases. Some people just can't help but develop a blind spot for characters they strongly like or dislike, it seems.

Speaking for myself, I forgive but I do not forget. I believe that accountability is important as an incentive to not deviate from the social norms. Rape is rape, murder is murder, and these acts must be punished. However, that does not imply that torture is an appropriate punishment under any circumstances, much less indefinite punishment.

Jaime is punished by remaining in prison for a long time. Also, he loses one of the only aspects of his life that he really cared about. I think that at least accounts for what he did to Bran and, given his apparent redemption, he deserves a second shot. That does not mean I believe pushing children out of a window is acceptable.