[BOOK SPOILERS] Nitpick without repercussion?

[tmug]

They're both selfish in my opinion. Neither is taking any sort of responsibility for the way they screwed over the north.

The wolf was never meant to sit upon a throne.

[Bastard Walder]

It's not Catelyn's fault the Karstarks decided to deviate from the books and become half of Robb's army. They really should have given people notice.

[Minsc]

They're both selfish in my opinion. Neither is taking any sort of responsibility for the way they screwed over the north.

Catelyn's actions hardly screwed over the North, moreover she hasn't been seen ever protesting her arrest for her act so that seems like she has pretty much accepted the punishment for her "crimes."

[The Drunkard]

The tiniest of nitpicks: if the show is creating new storylines between characters that don't meet such as Gendry and Melisandre, they could at least throw us a bone and write a dinner scene between Stannis, Tywin and Roose. If this happens, I will automatically declare the show to be forever superior to the books.

I don't care what they'd need to half-arse to get this onto the show. Make it happen and I'll watch it.

[Winter In My Heart]

Catelyn's actions hardly screwed over the North, moreover she hasn't been seen ever protesting her arrest for her act so that seems like she has pretty much accepted the punishment for her "crimes."

I was talking about Robb and Talisa lol. The only thing Cat did was screw over them having their most valuable hostage. Even then I would still say Talisa and Robb are more selfish because they caused a good chunk of his army to leave because of him breaking his word. But yeah I don't think Cat was selfish in her actions. All she did was want her daughters back. It just wasn't the smartest move to make in getting them back.

[Minsc]

I was talking about Robb and Talisa lol. The only thing Cat did was screw over them having their most valuable hostage. Even then I would still say Talisa and Robb are more selfish because they caused a good chunk of his army to leave because of him breaking his word. But yeah I don't think Cat was selfish in her actions. All she did was want her daughters back. It just wasn't the smartest move to make in getting them back.

Oh then I agree, seriously a flew into a rage when Catelyn was explaining to Robb why he shouldn't marry Talisa and was talking about her and Ned's relationship only for Robb to coldly declare "Father is dead." to her.

Honestly, when he said that he sounded like a whiny toddler having a hissy fit that I wanted Catelyn to put him over her knee and treat him accordingly to the manner he was acting.

[Winter In My Heart]

Oh then I agree, seriously a flew into a rage when Catelyn was explaining to Robb why he shouldn't marry Talisa and was talking about her and Ned's relationship only for Robb to coldly declare "Father is dead." to her.

Honestly, when he said that he sounded like a whiny toddler having a hissy fit that I wanted Catelyn to put him over her knee and treat him accordingly to the manner he was acting.

Yes that really annoyed me as well! What probably annoyed me worse than anything was the recent episode where he was like how Edmure is the best match the Freys ever had. I mean seriously? He doesn't even act the least bit sorry for what he did! And Talisa doesn't give a crap either. Oh but the line that really killed me was when Cat said to Edmure about how he would risk their lives at a chance for a pretty wife. You should have said that to your son last season Cat!!. I don't blame her for the line and saying it to her brother but it would have been much more suitable saying that to Robb.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The wolf was never meant to sit upon a throne.

Robb you mean? He was the heir of Winterfell, war or not.

[Minsc]

Oh but the line that really killed me was when Cat said to Edmure about how he would risk their lives at a chance for a pretty wife. You should have said that to your son last season Cat!!. I don't blame her for the line and saying it to her brother but it would have been much more suitable saying that to Robb.

She did tell Robb that it was during the speech where Robb responded with the "Father is dead" statement.

[Winter In My Heart]

She did tell Robb that it was during the speech where Robb responded with the "Father is dead" statement.

I don't remember her saying that. I do remember the part about how she said her and Ned's love took time and something about he just likes Talisa because its a hot secret romance.. Or something.. I can't remember much scenes from season two involving Madden because I can't stand watching Oona.

[Minsc]

I don't remember her saying that. I do remember the part about how she said her and Ned's love took time and something about he just likes Talisa because its a hot secret romance.. Or something.. I can't remember much scenes from season two involving Madden because I can't stand watching Oona.

Well, I was equating those as being similar statements.

[Winter In My Heart]

Well, I was equating those as being similar statements.

Aah well I think it would have maybe impacted him more if she said something along the lines of how it would screw up his cause and the Freys would desert him. Like how her and.... Talisa.... Both said Karstark soldiers would abandon if he killed Lord Karstark. But that's nitpicking since he'd obviously have still married her. I just wish they would show him, and his stupid idiot wife, showing some remorse for their actions.

[Spotted Cat]

the chain

what happened to the hands?

[Ser Cookie Monster]

the chain

what happened to the hands?

What do you mean? In the books the chain had hands because it was the badge of The Hand of The King. The badge should always have a hand. But in the show is just a chain that Tyrion gave to Shae, so no need for hands.

[WardenOfTheNerds]

What do you mean? In the books the chain had hands because it was the badge of The Hand of The King. The badge should always have a hand. But in the show is just a chain that Tyrion gave to Shae, so no need for hands.

Yeah and he probably won't be singing "hands of gold are always cold" anyway, since no Symon.

[Daske]

They're both selfish in my opinion. Neither is taking any sort of responsibility for the way they screwed over the north.

Why would they take responsibility for something that hasn't happened yet?

No one yet understands the full ramifications.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

Huh I hadn't thought about that.

The thing that really annoyed me though was how Robb completely brushed it off though. Saying 'Oh Edmure is the best match they ever had'. I mean seriously? Him and Talisa don't even act the least bit sorry that they've screwed everything up and like there's no consequences for wronging someone. I like Robb, but that seriously made him look like a douche.

I think you're right, to me it doesn't make him look like a douche, it just makes it look like he never intended to marry one of Walder Frey's daughters. It makes it look like his thought process with accepting the terms season one was: "okay I'll agree to this right now because I must agree to it or I can't save my father, but I'll find a way to get out of this deal later."

I think it's been pointed out a few times now, by Karstark, Catelyn and Frey's sons that Robb screwed up by marrying Talisa.

I am pissed that Robb hasn't admitted it to himself.

[Winter In My Heart]

Why would they take responsibility for something that hasn't happened yet?

No one yet understands the full ramifications.

Umm but the Frey soldiers left after their marriage. I would like to believe Talisa isn't a complete idiot and knows her selfishness of marrying Robb has cost him soldiers and that things haven't been going well for him because of her. People have told Robb he screwed up when he married her and its quite frustrating he won't eve accept that things have gone downhill since the moment he married her. Hell I'd argue that show-wise the Karstarks betrayal started with his marriage because of how much Lord Karstark talked badly about 'the foreign bitch'. Robb has enough reason to know he screwed up royally by marrying 'for love'. (Which I don't think they are because the actors have no chemistry IMO.) So yes it seems there's plenty enough reason that they could take responsibility for marrying each other just from what all has happened so far...

I think you're right, to me it doesn't make him look like a douche, it just makes it look like he never intended to marry one of Walder Frey's daughters. It makes it look like his thought process with accepting the terms season one was: "okay I'll agree to this right now because I must agree to it or I can't save my father, but I'll find a way to get out of this deal later."

I think it's been pointed out a few times now, by Karstark, Catelyn and Frey's sons that Robb screwed up by marrying Talisa.

I am pissed that Robb hasn't admitted it to himself.

Well no I didn't mean he looked like a douche by not marrying a daughter I'm saying it did because of the way he insulted the Freys (or at least I'm sure they'd take it as an insult) and not seeming to care he's screwed up. To say how Edmure is the best marriage they've ever had, it shows just how little he actually cares about having messed everything up. I mean I know he said how his uncle was paying for his mistakes and he took a tiny bit of knowledge, but after he said that its completely whitewashed any sort of guilt because of how much of an ass he is being, IMO.

[JaTyAdo]

<snip>

Really good post!! :D I'm so glad you pointed out the cases of the smallfolks. I was also wondering why the show didn't give this feeling. It wasn't so hard to depict. just a few extra, house in ruins, dirty river with dead bodies.. All I saw was house, trees, cave. It's just lost what the Brotherhood without Banners is really for. Was the show even able to explain that they were doing it for the smallfolks. When Thoros was having their lunch(?) with Arya, Gendry, and Hot pie, we got a pointless 'Fight with me!', why didn't they just show Thoros talking with the persons there in what could possibly be an inn? Show the BwB hang around with them so the viewers would understand that they're grateful for them, that they're doing it for the smallfolk, that they're doing it because of all the war that has been happening while the smallfolks are in danger and forgotten by the nobles.. and probably let the smallfolk throw a line that 'The wolves did this or the lions did that.' and have a close up of Arya having this guilty look for what they're saying. This is one of the things that could make the viewers relate so much in the show because this happens a lot during war in our world. Someone could even throw a line about a really big wolf leading a pack of wolves and have Arya look surprised about it and make her ask more.

And the lack of subtlety is really pissing me off. They already did it with Littlefinger in season 1 and it's ruining him more. He's one of my favorite villain. That scene of Littlefinger looking so obsessive at the IT for me is very cliche like making all the people want power considering that this is also a politics show. If they just want to show the rivalry between LF and Varys, why not just do this while they are at council meetings and playing with words? In the book, it's not even clear what LF really wants. And the scene between LF and Cersei is just way out-of-character between the two, Cersei would have lop his head off immediately and LF would be smart to know what she would do and keep it his precious secret. And as if that's not enough to show that he's evil and he also wants power, another scene in season 3 shows him looking obsessively at the IT and Ros was killed for what? To show that LF and Joffrey are evil? Like the people don't know that already... but patience is a virtue, so I'll wait and see how important her death is gonna play out..

And the characterization!! Good Lord!! :bang: Was that really Stannis? I swear I was so shocked and disappointed to see that scene with Melisandre by the beach that I had to mute the TV and look away! They already had Stannis put Davos in a dungeon! And then we had these scene telling him how he's sorry for what he did to his wife! What are they doing anyway? To add depths to his character? No, that's a different character. He's better off staying in the book as he was since this made people have different views about him. Instead of putting such out-of-character Stannis scenes, why didn't they just put his best lines/scenes in the book like this one:

Stannis stood abruptly. “R’hllor. Why is that so hard? They will not love me, you say? When have they ever loved me? How can I lose something I have never owned?” He moved to the south window to gaze out at the moonlit sea. “I stopped believing in gods the day I saw the Windproud break up across the bay. Any gods so monstrous as to drown my mother and father would never have my worship, I vowed. In King’s Landing, the High Septon would prattle at me of how all justice and goodness flowed from the Seven, but all I ever saw of either was made by men.”

“If you do not believe in gods-”

“-why trouble with this new one?” Stannis broke in. “I have asked myself as well. I know little and care less of gods, but the red priestess has power.”

Yes, but what sort of power? “Cressen had wisdom.”

“I trusted in his wisdom and your wiles, and what did they avail me, smuggler? The storm lords sent you packing. I went to them a beggar and they laughed at me. Well, there will be no more begging, and no more laughing either. The Iron Throne is mine by rights, but how am I to take it? There are four kings in the realm, and three of them have more men and more gold than I do. I have ships... and I have her. The red woman. Half my knights are afraid even to say her name, did you know? If she can do nothing else, a sorceress who can inspire such dread in grown men is not to be despised. A frightened man is a beaten man. And perhaps she can do more. I mean to find out.

“When I was a lad I found an injured goshawk and nursed her back to health. Proudwing, I named her. She would perch on my shoulder and flutter from room to room after me and take food from my hand, but she would not soar. Time and again I would take her hawking, but she never flew higher than the treetops. Robert called her Weakwing. He owned a gyrfalcon named Thunderclap who never missed her strike. One day our great-uncle Ser Harbert told me to try a different bird. I was making a fool of myself with Proudwing, he said, and he was right.” Stannis Baratheon turned away from the window, and the ghosts who moved upon the southern sea.

“The Seven have never brought me so much as a sparrow. It is time I tried another hawk, Davos. A red hawk.”

>This will also show that he meant to use her and this is such a good Stavos scene. Now, they even made Stannis throw Davos in a dungeon. They're approaching Stavos in a different way. Anybody else piss off about how Davos was just suddenly declared his hand in the ship? I know GRRm wrote the episode but it happened waayyyy better in book 3 that I wish they just move it in season 3 and now everything that's happening between Stannis and Davos is totally different.

And the whitewashing of the Lannisters, specifically Tyrion and Cersei. Cersei's whitewashing in seasons 1-2 is fine. It added depths to her character but in season 3, she is so whitewash that she seems weak like making all the audience feel nothing but sympathy for her.. BORING! And Tyrion, oh gosh, the little Ned in season 3, making him look like the main hero of the story and forgetting about Robb, the supposed-to-be center tragic hero of the story for this season. Now, just like what others had suggested, the death of Shae can work two ways and neither will make him bad. It's such a shame because PD is a really good actor and it will be more interesting to see him play a dark grey character.

And Sansa is so stupid. She's even more stupid than she was in aGoT! I refused to believe that Sansa doesn't know about the way the line of inheritance works! Nobody told her how it was suppose to go in the book but seems to me, she knows it already.... and 'Can I invite my family?' :bang: Who the hell are thinking of those lines?! And what's with Tyrion telling her beforehand of their marriage and to add it all, making Sansa unhappy about their marriage because he's a dwarf? I think Sansa is one of the most hated character now in GoT. They could have just stayed it as it was in the book because all her defiance, all her sadness, and her refusals during their wedding showcase her strength, especially the not-kneeling scene. Now, if they show the not-kneeling scene(which is kinda an awesome scene for Sansa and I'm not even a fan of her), viewers will just think she's the biggest bitch ever! :angry2:

The only time BF is BF was when he was talking with Catelyn. I don't even know who was that guy that is always present during what could possibly be a small council meeting. Blackfish is suppose to be the one who loves to listen and understand them. Edmure is just a total dumbass on the show which is also a shame since I saw the actor in Rome and he was really good. I was really excited. They didn't even include how Edmure cares for his people. Even in Hoster Tully's funeral, the show already ruin the two characters. And why does everytime Robb is shown, he was flirting with Talisa? And why is this awesome line not included:

"Gods be good, why would any man ever want to be king? When everyone was shouting King in the North, King in the North, I told myself... swore to myself... that I would be a good king, as honorable as Father, strong, just, loyal to my friends and brave when I faced my enemies... now I can’t even tell one from the other. How did it all get so confused? Lord Rickard’s fought at my side in half a dozen battles. His sons died for me in the Whispering Wood. Tion Frey and Willem Lannister were my enemies. Yet now I have to kill my dead friends’ father for their sakes.”

>Was it really that hard to include? Some viewers thought that he's such a selfish ass because he didn't listen to the others when it was clear to the readers that he had no choice. Why couldn't they make it clear in the show? Why didn't they show him miserable after doing that instead? And paraphrase the conversation that Jeyne and Catelyn had about Robb:

“It’s Robb,” the girl said. “He’s so miserable, so... so angry and disconsolate. I don’t know what to do.”

“It is a hard thing to take a man’s life.”

“I know. I told him, he should use a headsman. When Lord Tywin sends a man to die, all he does is give the command. it’s easier that way, don’t you think?”

“Yes,” said Catelyn, “but my lord husband taught his sons that killing should never be easy.”

>If this is the scene that Talisa actually had instead of flirting with him, I would probably like her.

Oh, as for the last note, GoT is becoming a romance fantasy now, Robb/Talisa, Jon/Ygritte/Orell, and Sam/Gilly.. Is there a need to show Sam singing to Gilly's baby? They don't have time to show important stuff but they have time to put unnecessary/annoying/out-of-character fillers. I'm glad that I decided to read the book after watching the first two seasons of the show because if I probably watch season 3 without reading the book, I'll think that it's just another cliche fantasy, only an adult version.

[JaTyAdo]

Wow, it was supposed to just be the one for this epidsode but I think I just pointed out my problem with the whole show.