The absolute worst theory you have heard?

[PatrickStormborn]

I'm not so sure. We've seen multiple characters revived to some extent in the series already, one of them being (previously,) a PoV character in Cat, along with Beric, Drogo to a lesser extent, Robert Strong, if he is (mostly,) Gregor as theorized. From the North we have Coldhands who is seemingly implied to be working with/for Bran or Bloodraven. Considering Jon's proximity to Melisandre and his connection to Bran and perhaps Bloodraven by extension, I wouldn't say Jon's revival is too much of a deus-ex machina.

Revival or resurrection has a history throughout the series, and Coldhands might be evidence of that power among the CotF/Bloodraven as well. It would be a further development of things we have seen in the series already, but it wouldn't be some once in a lifetime event ordained from on high with no precedent.

I think GRRM has done a remarkable job of avoiding deus-ex machina, but the closest example I can think of off the top of my head would be Daenerys hatching the dragons. It has been confirmed as a special event that cannot be repeated and there was no prior evidence or suggestion of its possibility until that point. It also acted as a device to keep Dany in the story, otherwise she would have been stuck in the middle of the desert, most likely dying slowly, or imprisoned in Vaes Dothrak for the remainder of the series.

I'm pretty sure my post very explicitly linked the "deus-ex-machina" to Jon being revived by Bran and Bloodraven, which is something we have not seen before in the books. The problem with the rest of the theories is that they overlook the fact that Jon will have merged with Ghost for a period of time.

Dany hatching the dragons was sufficiently foreshadowed and had a huge price. It's not in any way a "deus-ex-machina".

[Spilly]

Hodor is a a Targaryen

Tyrion is a Targaryen

Jaime is a Targaryen

Cersei is a Targaryen

Everyone is a Targaryen

Enough Targaryens.

R+L=J. It's true, what I dislike is the "Jon is the rightful king" bullshit. R+L=J just mean Jon is a Bastard of different parentage than he believe.

This.

[Corvo Attano]

Roose Bolton being a vampire.

Thats a Great idea, Roose would be a freaking awesome vampire :bowdown:

[ab aeterno]

I'm pretty sure my post very explicitly linked the "deus-ex-machina" to Jon being revived by Bran and Bloodraven, which is something we have not seen before in the books.

You did, and I very explicitly pointed out that as Coldhands appears to be an undead creature of some kind, and seems to be related to Bran and Bloodraven, we have potentially seen an undeveloped capacity for revival or resurrection by Bran and Bloodraven. Not to mention the "ice preserves" mantra.

My secondary point was that resurrection has a healthy presence throughout the series more generally.

As you say, we have not seen Bran/Bloodraven explicitly reviving people in the series, but before the end of aGoT we hadn't seen Dany hatch dragons either.

The problem with the rest of the theories is that they overlook the fact that Jon will have merged with Ghost for a period of time.

But surely warging only serves to strengthen Jon's connection to Bran/Bloodraven and the Old Gods? Not to mention Mormont's raven, who is most commonly theorized to be being warged by Bloodraven.

Dany hatching the dragons was sufficiently foreshadowed and had a huge price. It's not in any way a "deus-ex-machina".

There is foreshadowing, certainly, but not precedence within the books and the timeframe of the books. By contrast, the prologue to aGoT features resurrection as wights, in addition to Cat, Beric, Drogo, potentially Gregor, and all the other wights that appear throughout the series. The dragons are a once only event that serve to rescue Dany from a dead end future and take her from having nothing to having the three most valuable things in existence. The fact that it has been confirmed to be a one time only event that cannot be replicated by Dany or anyone else, even if they knew precisely how it was achieved, speaks to the fact that it is almost a de facto divine intervention.

I wouldn't say that it is definitely a case of deus-ex machina, but it is perhaps the closest the series comes, in my opinion.

[Yukle]

There is foreshadowing, certainly, but not precedence within the books and the timeframe of the books. By contrast, the prologue to aGoT features resurrection as wights, in addition to Cat, Beric, Drogo, potentially Gregor, and all the other wights that appear throughout the series. The dragons are a once only event that serve to rescue Dany from a dead end future and take her from having nothing to having the three most valuable things in existence. The fact that it has been confirmed to be a one time only event that cannot be replicated by Dany or anyone else, even if they knew precisely how it was achieved, speaks to the fact that it is almost a de facto divine intervention.

I wouldn't say that it is definitely a case of deus-ex machina, but it is perhaps the closest the series comes, in my opinion.

Weeeeelllllllllllllllllll...

I wouldn't say that this is a plot device to escape a dead-end or GRRM painting himself into a corner. If Dany found the dragon eggs just before she made Khal Drogo's funeral pyre, that'd be something different. But Dany experimented a few times with the eggs in fire and gambled that she knew what she was doing. Plus she'd seen that blood magic is quite powerful, thanks to the Maegi. It seems fairly well signposted to me.

[Penguin king]

There is foreshadowing, certainly, but not precedence within the books and the timeframe of the books. By contrast, the prologue to aGoT features resurrection as wights, in addition to Cat, Beric, Drogo, potentially Gregor, and all the other wights that appear throughout the series. The dragons are a once only event that serve to rescue Dany from a dead end future and take her from having nothing to having the three most valuable things in existence. The fact that it has been confirmed to be a one time only event that cannot be replicated by Dany or anyone else, even if they knew precisely how it was achieved, speaks to the fact that it is almost a de facto divine intervention.

I wouldn't say that it is definitely a case of deus-ex machina, but it is perhaps the closest the series comes, in my opinion.

Would GRRM even bother telling Dany's story if it weren't for the dragons though? It seems like the whole of her AGOT plot was leading up to that moment, and everything she has done since has been shaped by it. It's like peter parker being bitten by a radioactive spider, or Bilbo giving Frodo the ring, just with a lot more set up. It's less a case if deus-ex machina, and more the central conceit that really gets her story rolling.

[Unimportant]

Rhaegar is alive and is ________.

_________ is a secret Targaryen.

_________ is my favorite character and as such must be Azor Ahai.

Ned knocked up a fisherman's daughter because some third-hand 15-year-old gossip is proof of such thing.

And I think it's equally annoying when all of this is applied to Dany. It works both ways.

You forgot __________ surely warged into ___________ and therefore is not actually dead.

[Yukle]

You forgot __________ surely warged into ___________ and therefore is not actually dead.

Or its common variation:

____________ was switched with ___________ just before s/he died and is now hiding ________________ .

[ab aeterno]

Weeeeelllllllllllllllllll...

I wouldn't say that this is a plot device to escape a dead-end or GRRM painting himself into a corner.

I didn't say that either. I said it was the closest the series comes, in my opinion, but I reiterated multiple times that I didn't think it actually was deus ex machina

If Dany found the dragon eggs just before she made Khal Drogo's funeral pyre, that'd be something different. But Dany experimented a few times with the eggs in fire and gambled that she knew what she was doing. Plus she'd seen that blood magic is quite powerful, thanks to the Maegi. It seems fairly well signposted to me.

Again, being well foreshadowed or signposted is different from having precedent or subsequent examples of its taking place. I never said it wasn't foreshadowed, I merely said that it lacked precedent and that the hatching of the dragons is a less established part of ASOIAF lore than resurrection, to the point of being a one time event.

Would GRRM even bother telling Dany's story if it weren't for the dragons though? It seems like the whole of her AGOT plot was leading up to that moment, and everything she has done since has been shaped by it. It's like peter parker being bitten by a radioactive spider, or Bilbo giving Frodo the ring, just with a lot more set up. It's less a case if deus-ex machina, and more the central conceit that really gets her story rolling.

I suspect, were he to be resurrected, that Jon's resurrection would shape what he does afterwards.

With respect to both posts, as I took pains to point out, I don't think it is a case of deus ex machina, but I do think it's closer to being a deus ex machina than Jon's resurrection would be. I would say that the hatching of the dragons has a greater number of the characteristics. To be clear, I very much dislike many of the Jon resurrection theories, but I don't think they are deus ex machina to any worthwhile extent.

[PatrickStormborn]

If Jon is resurrected by Bran and Bloodraven, it would be a case of deus-ex-machina. There has been no foreshadowing and no precedent. You can cite Coldhands, but we have no idea what's going on with him. Isn't the general consensus that he's simply being warged by Bloodraven? And my point about Ghost is that Jon will have merged with him for a period of time before being resurrected. I find it unlikely that Ghost will survive if Jon is resurrected from his body, and Jon will be left pretty much half wolf, half zombie.

In contrast, Dany birthing the dragons had precedent (the Tragedy of Summerhall), she had made attempts before, it had a huge price, and it was heavily foreshadowed. When the dragons were hatched it didn't feel like a massive plot twist; it felt like the natural progression of Dany's arc.

[ab aeterno]

If Jon is resurrected by Bran and Bloodraven, it would be a case of deus-ex-machina.There has been no foreshadowing and no precedent. You can cite Coldhands, but we have no idea what's going on with him. Isn't the general consensus that he's simply being warged by Bloodraven?

There are numerous examples of resurrection throughout the series and it's a more established part of the contemporary series than bringing dragons to life. Since the very beginning of the series, resurrection in one form or another has been a possibility, and one that has affected a number of the character groups. My point with Coldhands iwas just a specific example of an undead connection to Bloodraven. As resurrection has been linked with the Lamb Men, the Red God religion and the Old Gods that Bloodraven/Bran seems to be connected to, I really don't think that Bloodraven of Bran would be a deus ex machina because resurrection is so well established. We haven't seen those two perform it, but we hadn't seen Thoros perform it before he did, and he did it by accident.

One possible example of Bloodraven being linked to revival might be his role in healing and awakening Bran from his coma after his fall from the tower. He seems to have been heavily involved in that, and it could well apply to Jon as well, if GRRM maintains Jon as a PoV while incapacitated.

As for narrative arc, many have speculated that Jon might be AAR, in which case, his death and rebirth have been heavily foreshadowed. If GRRM took the trouble to kill Jon or make it look like he's dead, I have to assume he intends for this to have a significant impact going forward.

And my point about Ghost is that Jon will have merged with him for a period of time before being resurrected. I find it unlikely that Ghost will survive if Jon is resurrected from his body, and Jon will be left pretty much half wolf, half zombie.

That's possible I suppose. My hope remains that Jon isn't dead or resurrected, ideally. If he is resurrected, however, I don't think being half wolf, half zombie would serve any narrative purpose. His personality could be changed however, I think that is very possible.

In contrast, Dany birthing the dragons had precedent (the Tragedy of Summerhall), she had made attempts before, it had a huge price, and it was heavily foreshadowed. When the dragons were hatched it didn't feel like a massive plot twist; it felt like the natural progression of Dany's arc

Dragon's weren't actually brought to life at Summerhall though, so I wouldn't say that it's really much of a precedent for a successful resurrection. Dany's hatching the dragons (she didn't actually birth them, even if she calls herself the Mother of Dragons,) was a one-off as confirmed by GRRM, and there have been no dragons for a pretty substantial period when Dany hatches them. Even being foreshadowed, it's almost like divine intervention.

[WhiteWalder]

Roose Bolton being a vampire.

Roose Bolton being a werewolf. The Boloton's wear other people's skin to keep a human appearance when they shift.

[Faydra]

Ha ha. Most of the secret Targaryen theories are a bit insane. Also some of the theories implying that Eddard, Syrio Forel, Rhaegar are quite funny.

[Jorelle Mormont]

This theory is not in true running for the worst, but is low in my personal book. COtF interbreeding with the First Men. It is just not necessary or just lame on several levels.

I'm actually totally unfamiliar with the specific theory, but just on a practical note -- if homo sapiens could interbreed with homo neanderthalensis in the real world then why not the CotF and the First Men in a fantasy setting? They may be alike "enough" to do so.

That there is a specific, to be revealed place where whores go and it will reunite Tyrion with Tysha.

^ This.

Also:

Secret Targaryens (except Jon)

Renly = Robert's son

Jojen Paste

and worst of all:

Howland Reed warged Arthur Dayne at ToJ. Or any of the "secret wargs" really, but that one most of all.

[Hank Scorpio]

My worst theory is Winterbowl

Bran=final boss

Confirmed.

Arya=heartless murderer

Confirmed.

Sansa=Ruthless plotter

Confirmed.

Jon Snow=Undead Night's King

Confirmed.

Rickon= Cannibal King of Skagos

Fucking CONFIRMED

WINTERBOWL

GET HYPE

[ugashep]

Talisa will be fake Arya is pretty rank, as is Coldhands is Benjen Stark.

[Joyful Union]

My worst theory is Winterbowl

Ah, /TV/ , the joys you've brought me.

[DavosSeaworthy]

My personal favorite is the thread someone started about R+L=Dany. It was literally claiming that Dany, a recognized Targaryen, was actually a secret Targaryen. I couldn't believe someone actually wrote it.

[ugashep]

My personal favorite is the thread someone started about R+L=Dany. It was literally claiming that Dany, a recognized Targaryen, was actually a secret Targaryen. I couldn't believe someone actually wrote it.

That is pretty rich.

[Alistair's Pantaloons]

Syrio Forel = Jaqen Hagar seems pretty retarded to me.