What if?: Jon Snow doesn't join the Night's Watch

[Strongest Of All Belwas]

Why would Jon be in position to allow or forbid Rodrik anything? Even Robb isn't dumb enough to put a 15 year old bastard with no experience in charge of Winterfell.

So? She would've kicked Jon out before she left. Ned left her in charge.

And when Robb was named King, he could very well send him back. Cat wouldn't be able to go against Robb post-crowning.

[Lion of Judah]

Ned always wanted to re-populate the Gift, if Jon didn't join the NW he could have been risen as lord of the Gift.

[Lord of The Hill]

Ned always wanted to re-populate the Gift, if Jon didn't join the NW he could have been risen as lord of the Gift.

Ned doesnt have the power to name him Lord of the gift , since the gift belongs to the NW

[Lion of Judah]

Ned doesnt have the power to name him Lord of the gift , since the gift belongs to the NW

He spoke to Benjen on several occasions about re-populating the Gift, the NW was not putting the land to use, so Winterfell could buy it back from them or any lord he placed on the Gift could pay taxes to the NW.

[Dagon Greyjoy]

Winterfell could have claimed the Gift as abandoned and thus terra nullius (which it was), populated it with several holdfasts given to second and third sons and bastards from the different Northern houses, and have them bend the knee to the Night's Watch.

Landless sons are traditionally given holdfasts, so it wouldn't be entirely out of the ordinary. Southerners with their Andal tradition don't do this, but both the Ironborn and the Northmen (First Men cultures) do: Asha promises enough land for every second son in the Iron Isles to build his own Hall when she proposes to settle with the Northmen for the Stony Shore.

[Errant Bard]

And when Robb was named King, he could very well send him back. Cat wouldn't be able to go against Robb post-crowning.

Why would he send him back when the killer of their father is south?

[Blueberry Stark]

IIRC Bran is in charge at WF when Ser Rodrick and his men are dispatched to deal with the Ironborn at Torrhen's Square. Therefore, Jon would only have to convince Bran that the men need to stay at WF for Rodrick to have to obey his orders.

[David Selig]

IIRC Bran is in charge at WF when Ser Rodrick and his men are dispatched to deal with the Ironborn at Torrhen's Square. Therefore, Jon would only have to convince Bran that the men need to stay at WF for Rodrick to have to obey his orders.

Bran was 8, way younger than the age of majority, he was no more than a figurehead, Rodrik was legally (as a castellan) and practically in charge.

[Minsc]

Moreover, why does anyone think that Jon would accept being stuck in Winterfell? He almost abandoned the Night Watch (which has a death sentence attached to it) so he could join Robb's march. Do you really think he is going sit around hanging out at Winterfell while Robb and Theon are fighting actual battles?

[jarl the climber]

At one point before Jon took his vows he thought of leaving. Since he was not a criminal he could have left at any time without any sanction before taking his vows. He did not really see any place for himself at Winterfell or in the South. Still I suppose he could have taken a ship for Essos and found a place in a sellsword company which would have actually have been an interesting development. Maybe he joins up with the Second Sons or the Golden Company as a squire. Still I can not see him taking Ghost to Essos and to be honest I can't see him doing anything but what he did once it was decided that he was going to the Watch. If he had stayed after Ned departed, Cat would still not want him hanging around maybe she sends him to give the message to Ned instead of going herself after the attempt on Brans life. Which would be an interesting turn of events.

[Minsc]

Ned should have just taken Jon to King's Landing as a "guard", in how then they could have Jon watching over and caring for both Sansa and Arya. In that, sense it is likely that the whole Arya and Joffrey fight would never have happened in how Jon could have stepped in to defuse the situation more carefully. Thus, ensuring that while in King's Landing that the Stark children all had their direwolves to protect and warn them about the dangers of the Lannisters.

[Errant Bard]

If Cat did not send Rodrick alone, like hell she's sending a 14 year old she does not trust.

But anyway, if Jon does not join the Watch it means either Ned takes him south, or he fosters him with a bannerman. Jon is not self-sufficient enough then to make the decision to abandon everything and go to Essos or something.

What's wrong with fostering, anyway? It's mind boggling: Ned was fostered himself and loved it, but for some reason thinks it's an awesome idea to force his bastard on his wife when he moves away with the rest of the family? Hey, dumbass, I bet the Manderlys or the Kastarks or the Umber would have jumped through hoops to be the house to raise Jon in. Heck, he could even have asked the Cerwyn, who are in a day's riding range of Winterfell, and the problem of Jon living under the same roof as Catelyn would have been solved, and he could still see his siblings when he wanted to boot.

Wait, am I ranting?

[jentario]

Dead at RW. LOL!

[David Selig]

What's wrong with fostering, anyway? It's mind boggling: Ned was fostered himself and loved it, but for some reason thinks it's an awesome idea to force his bastard on his wife when he moves away with the rest of the family? Hey, dumbass, I bet the Manderlys or the Kastarks or the Umber would have jumped through hoops to be the house to raise Jon in. Heck, he could even have asked the Cerwyn, who are in a day's riding range of Winterfell, and the problem of Jon living under the same roof as Catelyn would have been solved, and he could still see his siblings when he wanted to boot.

Wait, am I ranting?

Maybe, but the result is awesome. ;)

[Samsaptakas]

He'd be the new reek.

[Sharif Delmonte]

Hi all! First post here, please go easy on me!

1) I generally agree with those who think Jon would have gone south with Robb. Two direwolves in battle would have been a fun read for Stark partisans, and perhaps the Red Wedding never happens--it could have been Jon to bed Jeyne Westerling, leaving Robb honorable and able to continue the fight with the Freys still loyal.

2) However! In an alternate possibility, in which Robb leaves Jon as Winterfell's castellan or in an implied role as future master-at-arms, I'd conjecture Jon could have been prepared to repel the Ironmen. Regarding "Ramsey/Reek", I'm thinking he would have executed the (at the time Reek) prisoner, which would have made the Bolton betrayal less likely to succeed, with the unintended "benefit" of leaving Bolton men in the North to endure the first wave of the wildling attack.

3) the wildlings almost definitely succeed in their invasion of the north. With or without Robb, Jon brokers an uneasy peace with Mance and recognises their right to the Gift, by conquest. It takes decades for the wildlings to stop harassing the North, but eventually like as in Skagos, a deténte is reached.

4) If Jon and Robb somehow both survived the war, Robb would have secured a hold in the North for Jon, and surely Ned Stark's "son" would still be worthy of a middle-class wife, pehaps a mountain-clanner or even Meera Reed or an age appropriate Mormont.

[Nausicaä]

If Cat did not send Rodrick alone, like hell she's sending a 14 year old she does not trust.

But anyway, if Jon does not join the Watch it means either Ned takes him south, or he fosters him with a bannerman. Jon is not self-sufficient enough then to make the decision to abandon everything and go to Essos or something.

What's wrong with fostering, anyway? It's mind boggling: Ned was fostered himself and loved it, but for some reason thinks it's an awesome idea to force his bastard on his wife when he moves away with the rest of the family? Hey, dumbass, I bet the Manderlys or the Kastarks or the Umber would have jumped through hoops to be the house to raise Jon in. Heck, he could even have asked the Cerwyn, who are in a day's riding range of Winterfell, and the problem of Jon living under the same roof as Catelyn would have been solved, and he could still see his siblings when he wanted to boot.

Wait, am I ranting?

:agree:

I think that Robb would have taken Jon with him when he went South and place a lot of trust in him. And while it would have been a source of tension at first, it could work out pretty well. IMO, depsite their difficult relationship, Jon would actually side with Catelyn quite a lot. He would agree with her about Theon and about the need to trade Jaime for the girls, for example. Maybe with the two of them there to persuade Robb, Theon would never have been sent back home and wouldn't participate in the invasion of the North as a result, so the events at WF would unfold differently. Ramsay would probably be dead. And if Bran and Rickon still "died" (or, well, did die), Jon could have been the one to comfort Robb (as his closest friend and family member who could understand his loss better than anyone) so the books would have been very different.

[Errant Bard]

And if Bran and Rickon still "died" (or, well, did die), Jon could have been the one to comfort Robb

Great, that made the most disturbing image spring into my mind. Eww.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

While I think the sack of Winterfell could go either way — it's hard to imagine Jon on his own holding off the ironborn, but then again I think he would've been able to figure out Theon's strategy, and he might have made a successful escape with Bran and Rickon — I have to say I'm amused that everyone takes for granted that the Red Wedding would have still happened exactly the way it did.

Robb had no one to candidly tell him that marrying Jeyne was a mistake and that he should follow through with the Frey wedding. Maybe if Jon's there, he's the one Robb listens to when he says, "You swore an oath to the Freys, you need to keep it." I also think Theon could have served this purpose too, by the way, if Robb hadn't sent him back.

Speaking of Theon, maybe Jon — who has never liked or trusted Theon — is also the one to whom Robb listens when Jon tells him to not send Theon back to Pyke. Jon doesn't have to fight an ironborn invasion of Winterfell because without Theon, there wouldn't have been one in the first place, or the attempt would have been made further down the line when Robb had the time to prepare.

But say Jon was in Winterfell when the ironborn showed up. Say he's able to smuggle Bran and Rickon out, at least — I don't think that's out of the question, even if you side-eye his ability to single-handedly stop them from taking the castle (which is a fair criticism). Jon gets them out and gets word to Robb that they're alive. Robb is less emotionally vulnerable when he meets Jeyne and Catelyn, knowing her sons aren't dead, has no reason to let Jaime Lannister go; Robb keeps his marriage pact and his hostage, the loss of which directly contributed to the circumstances that allowed the Red Wedding to occur.

Tl;dr: There's more to this than "lol Jon goes south and dies at the RW" and I dare say a few people have forgotten the very preventable domino effect that caused the Red Wedding in the first place.

[Errant Bard]

Robb had no one to candidly tell him that marrying Jeyne was a mistake and that he should follow through with the Frey wedding. Maybe if Jon's there, he's the one Robb listens to when he says, "You swore an oath to the Freys, you need to keep it." I also think Theon could have served this purpose too, by the way, if Robb hadn't sent him back.

He had Brynden Tully, hadn't he?

Jon gets them out and gets word to Robb that they're alive. Robb is less emotionally vulnerable when he meets Jeyne and Catelyn, knowing her sons aren't dead, has no reason to let Jaime Lannister go; Robb keeps his marriage pact and his hostage, the loss of which directly contributed to the circumstances that allowed the Red Wedding to occur.

But Bran and Rickon did get out, the problem is not getting out, it's "getting word to Robb". How does one does it? Why should it be different than when Osha got Bran and Rickon out? I'm not seeing the logic here, especially when Jon would be one of the "corpses" Robb hears about.

But yes, if Winterfell does not fall, Robb is less likely to succumb to Maggi's love philter (though it's a plot device, of course, he had to fall for it no matter what), and he does not lose the Freys that way, Jaime is probably not released, but that makes little difference, because the real deciding factor in the end is Stannis' loss at the Blackwater and the Lannister/Tyrell alliance denying Robb of any hope of victory. Bolton would have turned either way, and Robb would have lost the Freys eventually: Tywin would have won them the same way he won Roose. Maybe the Red Wedding would not have happened, but a black dinner would certainly have, at one point or another, if Robb decided to still no bend the knee.