[Book Spoilers] Sansa and Tyrion

[Aleenys]

I'm not a Sansa fan, and I have found some of the defenses of her alleged intellectual growth, her agency or lack of same to be extremely tortured, but how can you say that Tyrion should not be blamed for marrying Sansa come on?

His family destroyed her family, publicly humiliated and abused her, murdered her father, she is given no choice in the matter, I'm not even sure if suicide would have been an option for Book Sansa since the wedding was taking place 'right now'. Tyrion deserves blame for participating in further emotional torture and manipulation of Sansa Stark by marrying her against her will and legally tying her to the Lannisters forever.

Exactly. There is no subjectivity in this. Not even a chance.

And I call BS on people who put forward the idea that he married to protect her, or even help protect her from his family. There is no support for this in the text. He wanted Winterfell, and he wanted Sansa too. I'm sure if she had done a better job of hiding her disgust from him he would have gladly consummated the marriage, but he didn't want to have a wife who hated him, and hoped that being kind to her led to her wanting him eventually. Tyrion would have gotten "good guy" cookies from me only if he had sat her next to him in their wedding night and told her that he would never harm her and she shouldn't worry about the consummation at all. He was too much of a coward to do that, and perversed enough to desire her. Instead, chapters and chapters we listen to his whining about his bitterness at Sansa even refusing to look at him. Too bad your forced child bride doesn't want anything to do with you, dude.

[Woman of War]

Aleenys, you are doing exactly this what Cas Stark was critising: Cherrypicking of events to support your argument

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

The more people fight about who was terrible to whom in the marriage and which character is more flawed/sympathetic/terrible/awesome, the more I ship for Sansa and Tyrion to end up as a shockingly happy power couple, each content that the other has a beloved paramour on the side, ruling some unburned corner of Westeros with wit and poise.

When in reality Tyrion will probably get eaten by a dragon and Sansa will go totally Stockholm Syndome with Littlefinger.

[Aleenys]

While Tyrion fans are certainly (very, very) guilty of whitewashing his behavior, i see a lot of...blackwashing of his behavior, especially by Sansa fans who seem to want to demonize him as much as possible. And perhaps that is the point of Tyrion's character--to be the grayest of the gray, with divisive opinion.

Depends on the way you look at it, I guess.

I myself am very critical of his behaviour in this marriage because I felt betrayed by Tyrion's character. Like many people, I had thought Tyrion was a morally good guy and glossed over his misdeeds up until that point. I remember reading Sansa's first ACOK chapter and was quite happy with his attitude towards Sansa, I thought he would probably be one of the few people who truly sympathized with her situation without wanting any benefit out of it. I never thought he would look at Sansa that way, though I know now that I should have known better. So his attitude during this whole marriage stuck out to me like a sore thumb. Weirdly enough, it wasn't Tywin or Shae's murder that made me lose respect for Tyrion first, many people cite this event or the rapes for their wake-up call about Tyrion. For me it was this marriage. I guess what I'm saying is, Tyrion wasn't someone I thought he was, so this whole marriage situation made me extremely pissed off at him because I didn't expect him to act this way. Some people might have thought he was a gray character by then, and actually give credit to him for not meaning Sansa any harm or raping her. That's not the side I'm looking at him from, so I'm very critical against him. Hooray for opinions.

[Woman of War]

Tyrion wasn't someone I thought he was, so this whole marriage situation made me extremely pissed off at him because I didn't expect him to act this way

Your post sounds a little like disappointed love. And it is never indifference that creates the strongest negative emotions but disappointment, in RL as well.

But isn't this what makes good writing: the characters do the unexpected, they may act irrationally, make mistakes, do not consider all circumstances, act spontaneously under uncertainty - and yes, sometimes they surprise us readers with moves we would never have expected from them and do not like. Should we then withdraw our favour like a sulking kid, taking this as personal betrayal of our fan loyalty?

No, I think it is the quality of Martin's writing is the characters are not cardboard cuts of good and evil but that they are complete human beings. If a character is interesting he or she stays interesting, we should stay with them through thick and thin. Will you start hating Sansa if she has a part in Sweetrobin's or anyone else's murder? Will you lose interst or will you see this as necessary part of her story arc in order to become the character the author has in mind?

The author has plans with his characters, they have to do what they do and Martin cannot care about the different tastes of fandom since they will always differ. The story of the characters and the book in general is paramount. Good books are no fan service, they are literature and the poor wronged girl is nothing but a tool in the story to promote important events. Martin will have his reasons to link Sansa and Tyrion in one storyline. I for example think that making Sansa and Tyrion marry was a great literary trick in order to create foggy frontlines, not only for the characters inside but as well for the readers as analysing observers behind the moral microscope.

Ironcast morally cleansed rules for whom we are supposed to root as readers are for lazy thinkers and can never make good literature.

The biggest sin a literary character can commit is being boring.

[1234567]

I myself am very critical of his behaviour in this marriage because I felt betrayed by Tyrion's character. Like many people, I had thought Tyrion was a morally good guy and glossed over his misdeeds up until that point.

Agree completely. I was certain he would tell her as soon as they got o the bedroom that he was there to protect her and instead we got the awful "knight of flowers" and attempted rape.

But isn't this what makes good writing: the characters do the unexpected, they may act irrationally, make mistakes, do not consider all circumstances, act spontaneously under uncertainty - and yes, sometimes they surprise us readers with moves we would never have expected from them and do not like. Should we then withdraw our favour like a sulking kid, taking this as personal betrayal of our fan loyalty?

No one is denying Tyrion is a well written or engaging character, it is those that continually whitewash him because they can't stand liking a villainous / antihero or grey character that are the problem. You can still like a character but admit they are on a dark path. It's when you have a character like Tyrion, that some people like so much, that they over emphasis their favour and like someone supporting a freedom fighter who has become a tyrant, fail to acknowledge any possibility that their favourite is no longer the amazing hero they thoughts they were and instead make excuses for every action they make to explain how it's not their fault.

Being part of the forced marriage made him start to dislike Tyrion, but I still enjoyed his chapters, even his ADWD ones. It was only on a re-read and the Tyrion re-read where it became clear that he had been a bitter, mead spirited, self-pitying person from the start of the series, but that had been hidden as his nicer traits, had been emphasised and on the first read through you take everything he says as gospel and do not realise he is an unreliable narrator. He is still a funny character though.

It's fine to like Tyrion. I like Victarion, but I'm not going to justify him killing his wife to whitewash him or to suggest that Stannis burning people alive is okay. It puts Stannis on to a severely anti-hero category and for some people that makes him a villain (along with Renly's death).

The biggest sin a literary character can commit is being boring.

Well the Damphair wins that award IMHO, but TV's Whitewashed Tyrion is certainly winning it for the series as he has become even less flawed than Ned! On unsullied forums he is being referred to as a true hero, with all the attributes of one. To be honest given the characterisation so far,I think they are going to struggle to make him believably kill Shae, unless they go out of their way to make everyone else look so bad that he is justified in his actions. Although given they have changed the plot and mangled characters to do that this season (as they have had to do with everyone surrounding Robb because of the Talisa change) they may well continue, and next season we will find out Shae will be torturing kittens for fun with her new bf Joff.

The more people fight about who was terrible to whom in the marriage and which character is more flawed/sympathetic/terrible/awesome, the more I ship for Sansa and Tyrion to end up as a shockingly happy power couple, each content that the other has a beloved paramour on the side, ruling some unburned corner of Westeros with wit and poise.

Sadly I think you are right. Sansa deserves a happy ending, but sadly she will not get it, instead she will no doubt be made into the loving trophy wife of Tyrion, of the titanium plot armour.

[Lord Freypie]

Do you realise the show is written by people knowing the ending of the story and having first hand access to Martin's analysis of his own characters ?

Either Tyrion whitewashing is there to make his fall into darkness even more shocking, either it's done to fix something as Martin tried to make him a character readers understand and continue to root for despite a darker passage and failed to anticipate some readers extreme reactions (to the point some even rate him as "beyond redemption" in a recent thread, in lists not even including other PoVs).

Tyrion is not a secundary character but one of the main protagonists, likely to have a future in the story. They certainly aren't whitewashing him for no reason.

[Colonel Green]

Do you realise the show is written by people knowing the ending of the story and having first hand access to Martin's analysis of his own characters ?

Either Tyrion whitewashing is there to make his fall into darkness even more shocking, either it's done to fix something as Martin tried to make him a character readers understand and continue to root for despite a darker passage and failed to anticipate some readers extreme reactions (to the point some even rate him as "beyond redemption" in a recent thread, in lists not even including other PoVs).

Tyrion is not a secundary character but one of the main protagonists, likely to have a future in the story. They certainly aren't whitewashing him for no reason.

He's not really being whitewashed in isolation. It's a part of the writers' general effort to soften the grey/black characters' sharper edges; the only real exception to that rule is Joffrey.

[David Selig]

Do you realise the show is written by people knowing the ending of the story and having first hand access to Martin's analysis of his own characters ?

Either Tyrion whitewashing is there to make his fall into darkness even more shocking, either it's done to fix something as Martin tried to make him a character readers understand and continue to root for despite a darker passage and failed to anticipate some readers extreme reactions (to the point some even rate him as "beyond redemption" in a recent thread, in lists not even including other PoVs).

Tyrion is not a secundary character but one of the main protagonists, likely to have a future in the story. They certainly aren't whitewashing him for no reason.

Of course they are doing for a reason - higher ratings and more DVD sales. That's their main goal, not accuracy to the books or Martin's future plans for the characters. They think they need a heroic and conventionally likeable main character for viewers to root for.

[Woman of War]

Of course they are doing for a reason - higher ratings and more DVD sales. That's their main goal, not accuracy to the books or Martin's future plans for the characters. They think they need a heroic and conventionally likeable main character for viewers to root for.

I think the showmakers want to and will be true to the intended endgame by Martin, they will not fundamentally change the fate of main characters but they may choose different paths to get there - due to the medium.

And their changes ar not always "whitewashing". I for example was annoyed by making Jaime kill his relative because I think this is not in line with his Lannister character. But the wonderful acting of Coster Waldau makes up for it.

I loved though the so-called whitewashing of Cersei, she is far more subtle in the series than in the books, a real improvement.

Margaery has for sure not been whitewashed, she is clever and cunning, just great and potentially capable of everything.

Sansa did not betray her father in the same manner as she did in the books - whitewashing that does no harm.

Tyrion did not "go last" with Tysha, since he was sixteen in HBO and not his book age of thirteen the impact would have been a serious "blackwashing"

Arya did not kill. Tywin started as being quite reasonable, Jorah is not grumpybut attractive and responsible - three incredible actors.

And a big whitewashing has been done to the character Sandor since he never had a knife at Sansa's throat and never considered rape.

And Littlefinger has been washed to the point of fade out.

Shae has her own thread, read there.

The showmakers add their own accents and this is in most cases fine with me.

Either Tyrion whitewashing is there to make his fall into darkness even more shocking, either it's done to fix something as Martin tried to make him a character readers understand and continue to root for despite a darker passage and failed to anticipate some readers extreme reactions (to the point some even rate him as "beyond redemption" in a recent thread, in lists not even including other PoVs).

Tyrion is not a secundary character but one of the main protagonists, likely to have a future in the story. They certainly aren't whitewashing him for no reason.

:agree:

[Cas Stark]

Do you realise the show is written by people knowing the ending of the story and having first hand access to Martin's analysis of his own characters ?

Either Tyrion whitewashing is there to make his fall into darkness even more shocking, either it's done to fix something as Martin tried to make him a character readers understand and continue to root for despite a darker passage and failed to anticipate some readers extreme reactions (to the point some even rate him as "beyond redemption" in a recent thread, in lists not even including other PoVs).

Tyrion is not a secundary character but one of the main protagonists, likely to have a future in the story. They certainly aren't whitewashing him for no reason.

Or, its done because despite the fact that its HBO, they are still not willing to have a series where so many of the main characters are SO dark, so they made Cersei a little less bad because she's going to be around for a long time, same with Tyrion. They're whitewashing him because he's too dark for TV.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

but how can you say that Tyrion should not be blamed for marrying Sansa come on?

I've explained that innumerable times on this very thread, so asking "how can you say that" just confirms to me that you're not actually reading things other people are writing. Obviously, I can say it for all the reasons I've articulated previously.

If you want to discuss those specific reasons in detail, fine. My starting point is that I'm judging how blameworthy Tyrion is based on the morality and ethics of his own time, not ours. If you aren't, then right off the back, that explains why we see it differently, and there's not really any point in moving forward. But assuming you're using that same standard, here are my three reasons, in short. Please pick whichever one you want to discuss first so we can stay focused

1) Her age is not an issue to me because under Westerosi standards, she was old enough to be wedded and bedded. So, no blame to Tyrion.

2) Betrothals and marriages are commonly arranged in Westeros without seeking the permission of the children (in the case of betrothals) or maids (in the case of weddings), beforehand. The bedding/consummation of a marriage on the wedding night is also expected and accepted in that culture. So, no blame to Tyrion.

3) To the extent Tyrion varied from his cultural norms, he did it in a positive direction. He protested initially against the marriage, which I believe very few Westerosi nobles would have done if presented with such a favorable match. The fact of Sansa being married is something he was powerless to change, yet he nevertheless offered her the only choice he could -- marry Lancel instead of me, and he actually told her why Lancel might be a better choice. Then, despite consummation of the marriage being something fully within cultural norms, he refused his father's orders to do so. And, he went much further than that by also promising that he would never touch her unless she wanted him to. To me, that seems far beyond the bounds of what anyone would expect in Westeros.

So, pick one, and we'll start.

Exactly. There is no subjectivity in this. Not even a chance.

Do you not know the meaning of "subjective" versus "objective"? Someone else's morality may be completely fucked up, but that doesn't render that morality any less subjective.

[mrs_serpounce]

And here we go again with whitewashing.

It amazes me to this day how divisive Tyrion is as a character. I'm a Tyrion fan precisely because he *is* an antihero. I'm a massive fan of antiheroes. Phantom of the Opera, Quasimodo, Morgan LeFay, Elphaba, Jack Sparrow - just to name a few - all characters that walk the grey line and do some pretty awful things... but somehow have a moral compass buried in there somewhere that they actually consult from time to time. Not someone I'd want to be friends with IRL, but is a whole lot of fun to watch or read.

(ETA: You want to see a true whitewash? Read "Wicked" and then go *watch* the Wicked Broadway play. Elphaba goes from true grey character to misunderstood nerdy girl. As a misunderstood nerdy girl myself, I adore the Broadway play, but for wholly different reasons than I love the book.)

Truthfully, Tyrion's loop of self-pity-party in ADwD bored the heck out of me, and I was completely turned off by his behavior toward Penny. I absolutely understood *why* it was happening, but I liked it better when he had both flaws and good traits; him being 95% flaw in ADwD was just... boring reading to me. As WoW mentioned, it's the biggest sin a literary character can commit.

Cas Stark, thank you for the Tyrion-fan defense. I'm also of the opinion that apparently, defending a character automatically paints you into a corner with fans who don't care for said character. I think FLoW has done an amazing job of balancing out a defense of Tyrion and an admission of Tyrion's flaws, as well as a defense of Sansa while admitting Sansa's flaws... and yet the Sansa fans keep coming. I'm really beginning to believe that no matter how you phrase it, any defense of Tyrion's point of view (and note that I say "point of view" and not "actions") that doesn't jive with "poor Sansa" is never going to make it as an argument, no matter how well-thought out.

Now I want to see how many people quote that last paragraph and skip over the first few to get on me about how I whitewash Tyrion.

[Cas Stark]

I've explained that innumerable times on this very thread, so asking "how can you say that" just confirms to me that you're not actually reading things other people are writing. Obviously, I can say it for all the reasons I've articulated previously.

If you want to discuss those specific reasons in detail, fine. My starting point is that I'm judging how blameworthy Tyrion is based on the morality and ethics of his own time, not ours. If you aren't, then right off the back, that explains why we see it differently, and there's not really any point in moving forward. But assuming you're using that same standard, here are my three reasons, in short. Please pick whichever one you want to discuss first so we can stay focused

1) Her age is not an issue to me because under Westerosi standards, she was old enough to be wedded and bedded. So, no blame to Tyrion.

2) Betrothals and marriages are commonly arranged in Westeros without seeking the permission of the children (in the case of betrothals) or maids (in the case of weddings), beforehand. The bedding/consummation of a marriage on the wedding night is also expected and accepted in that culture. So, no blame to Tyrion.

3) To the extent Tyrion varied from his cultural norms, he did it in a positive direction. He protested initially against the marriage, which I believe very few Westerosi nobles would have done if presented with such a favorable match. The fact of Sansa being married is something he was powerless to change, yet he nevertheless offered her the only choice he could -- marry Lancel instead of me, and he actually told her why Lancel might be a better choice. Then, despite consummation of the marriage being something fully within cultural norms, he refused his father's orders to do so. And, he went much further than that by also promising that he would never touch her unless she wanted him to. To me, that seems far beyond the bounds of what anyone would expect in Westeros.

So, pick one, and we'll start.

Do you not know the meaning of "subjective" versus "objective"? Someone else's morality may be completely fucked up, but that doesn't render that morality any less subjective.

Here are the reasons his decision to marry her is blameworthy:

1) It's a match her family didn't approve, her mother and brother were still alive at the time, thus their approval or disapproval of the match would be an important factor in whether it was ethical or not.

2) It was not an arranged marriage, where the families arranged the marriage for political/dynastic reasons (see point 1), but a forced marriage at the proverbial sword point.

3) He was by no means "powerless" to change Sansa's fate, he is the son Tywin Lannister, Hand of the King and uncle of the King, if he had WANTED to, he could have gotten her out of the city, back to her own family, but that would have meant going against the hand that had fed, clothed and kept him in wine and whores all of his life...and so instead of freeing her, he married her and then proceeding to his pity party because she wasn't attracted to him.

[mrs_serpounce]

Agree completely. I was certain he would tell her as soon as they got o the bedroom that he was there to protect her and instead we got the awful "knight of flowers" and attempted rape.

If you're speaking of the fact that Tyrion touched her while she was naked (we won't even start on our-time-versus-their-time ethics, because I have a feeling that battle's already fallen on the 'our time' side in your head), the term for that would be "sexual assault," not "attempted rape." Attempted rape is actually attempting penetration - which he never did, with any part of his body. Semantics, but please keep them separate.

No one is denying Tyrion is a well written or engaging character, it is those that continually whitewash him because they can't stand liking a villainous / antihero or grey character that are the problem. You can still like a character but admit they are on a dark path. It's when you have a character like Tyrion, that some people like so much, that they over emphasis their favour and like someone supporting a freedom fighter who has become a tyrant, fail to acknowledge any possibility that their favourite is no longer the amazing hero they thoughts they were and instead make excuses for every action they make to explain how it's not their fault.

More semantics time :) Antihero and villain are two completely different concepts. And thinking someone is an "amazing hero" is a completely separate concept in itself. You can't see someone as an antihero and yet see them as an amazing hero; and you especially can't see a villain as such.

Still, in semantics, I think that's where we all fall on one side of the fence or another: some people see Tyrion as an antihero; some people see Tyrion as a villain. People who squarely put him in the "villain" camp (IMO) overemphasize his dark traits. People who see him as an antihero defend the fact that he has moral leanings at times, but the people who feel he's a villain (a cruelly malicious person who is involved in or devoted to wickedness or crime; scoundrel) don't want to hear about "moral leanings" because they don't see it as such.

Thus, the debate.

[mrs_serpounce]

3) He was by no means "powerless" to change Sansa's fate, he is the son Tywin Lannister, Hand of the King and uncle of the King, if he had WANTED to, he could have gotten her out of the city, back to her own family, but that would have meant going against the hand that had fed, clothed and kept him in wine and whores all of his life...and so instead of freeing her, he married her and then proceeding to his pity party because she wasn't attracted to him.

Not just fed, clothed, and given him money, but someone who had actively destroyed entire houses and was in the process of destroying another at that point. And who had made that specific point to him at the tender age of 13, with his first wife - and I'm one of the people who think that a 13-year-old *is* a victim of an adult at that point. So, while I can't say Tyrion marrying her was noble (it wasn't), I can't say that it's *blameworthy*. This, to me, is part of the grayscale nature of his character, and why he isn't heroic. He made a comple minorly noble choices: he noted that he could potentially protect her - as far as his selfish nature would take, that is - and he didn't force himself on her - which, sorry, in comparison to what he was allowed to do, that is a moral choice; not the heroic action of completely going against his father, but moral.

This is the difference between moral, noble, and heroic. I'm defending that he made some moral/minorly noble choices. Not heroic. Heroic would be to fight his dad, as you note. He's on the grayer end of that scale; he's Tyrion.

[Cas Stark]

Yeah, I don't say its villanous that he married Sansa, only that I don't agree it is not "blameworthy" because he's not powerless at the time and she is completely powerless. He does what his father wants, as he has done his entire life because his only source of power has always been the Lannister name and the power that comes with it, which emanates directly from his father, this is why I blame him more than most for murdering his father. He could easily have sent her to the Tyrells as well and let her marry Willas as she wanted to. He didn't. He did what he had done his entire life, again, what was good for the Lannisters, regardless of who else it hurt.

He certainly gets credit for not having sex with her and for initially refusing the marriage, and for his attempts to break through to her and for his kindnesses to her. Some credit.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Here are the reasons his decision to marry her is blameworthy:

1) It's a match her family didn't approve, her mother and brother were still alive at the time, thus their approval or disapproval of the match would be an important factor in whether it was ethical or not.

2) It was not an arranged marriage, where the families arranged the marriage for political/dynastic reasons (see point 1), but a forced marriage at the proverbial sword point.

Okay, you asked me to give my reasons, I gave them, and you ignored them and decided to list your own. Fine. I assume that since you didn't mention her age, that's now off the table. So I'll address your three points since that's apparently the framework you prefer for this discussion. The first two points both focus on the same issue -- her family not agreeing to the marriage. Before I hit that one, I'm going to skip to the third point because the resolution of that point materially affects the discussion of the other two.

3) He was by no means "powerless" to change Sansa's fate, he is the son Tywin Lannister, Hand of the King and uncle of the Kin....,

We're talking about the wedding, right? I mean, that's what the issue is supposed to be, and we're trying to stay focused. And at the time he was first told by his father about the wedding, he was no longer the Hand of the King. His father was, and no matter how you slice it, Tyrion being Tywin's son doesn't mean shit If his father, the Hand, and his nephew, the King, both want something he doesn't. The Lannister guardsmen, Gold Cloaks, the Kingsguard, and the entire rest of the City take their orders from Tywin and Joffrey, not from Tyrion. Or is it your contention that after being told of this wedding, Tyrion had the authority to order Sansa's release, and send her to HIghgarden?

Tywin was resolved that Sansa was to be married. He told Tyrion that, and Tyrion did not have the power to change that. Had he refused, Tywin would have married her to Lancel or to someone else.

[mrs_serpounce]

Yeah, I don't say its villanous that he married Sansa, only that I don't agree it is not "blameworthy" because he's not powerless at the time and she is completely powerless. He does what his father wants, as he has done his entire life because his only source of power has always been the Lannister name and the power that comes with it, which emanates directly from his father, this is why I blame him more than most for murdering his father. He could easily have sent her to the Tyrells as well and let her marry Willas as she wanted to. He didn't. He did what he had done his entire life, again, what was good for the Lannisters, regardless of who else it hurt.

Yup. TBH, Tyrion's true nature is a selfish one. He's spent his entire life watching out for himself because nobody else really has - the best he's ever been given, at most, is indifference, rather than true protection - so the lesson he's learned is that Tyrion is for Tyrion. (To quote one of my other favorite books, The Last Battle: "The Dwarfs are for the Dwarfs!") He does have unselfish impulses from time to time, usually attached to "cripples, bastards and broken things" - and Sansa qualifies as a "broken thing," considering how much she's been through, thus, I think, why he does the unselfish thing by not forcing a consummation - but in the end, it cycles back to Tyrion watching out for Tyrion. And having the Lannister name is part of how he watches out for himself. I don't think I can ever see him abandoning it.

While I was certainly surprised at Tyrion's murder of his father, I can't say I was wholly *upset*. I think that's actually part of where a divisive line lies - how can you be troubled by the fact that Tyrion actually murdered one of the villains of the story (whose death you totally wanted to happen)? It's a tough line to walk. While I was cheering at the fact that it *happened*, I was genuinely troubled by the fact that Tyrion had done such a thing - because it wasn't for a heroic reason; it was due to him basically having a psychotic break, due to what had happened with Shae.

Soo... do I think Tywin and Shae deserved to die? Yes, most certainly. In such a way? Not really. At Tyrion's hands, it was not a moral choice; it was revenge and hardcore hatred, pure and simple. And, again, self-motivated; he was wounded to his core, and acted out on it, instead of thinking about it - and thinking is, IMNSHO, Tyrion's true strength, and the only thing that saves him from being a dark character.

He certainly gets credit for not having sex with her and for initially refusing the marriage, and for his attempts to break through to her and for his kindnesses to her. Some credit.

:) I think we're in the same place here. It doesn't make him heroic... just is a nod to the fact that yeah, Tyrion can do somewhat the right thing sometimes. ;)

[HopeForSpring]

The more people fight about who was terrible to whom in the marriage and which character is more flawed/sympathetic/terrible/awesome, the more I ship for Sansa and Tyrion to end up as a shockingly happy power couple, each content that the other has a beloved paramour on the side, ruling some unburned corner of Westeros with wit and poise.

When in reality Tyrion will probably get eaten by a dragon and Sansa will go totally Stockholm Syndome with Littlefinger.

^^ :drunk: :leaving: