Surprising Lannister ancestor?

[donalnig]

I think that a Targaryen ancestor is very likely but then again over 300 years most Great Houses have probably at one time or another intermarried with the royal family. I would be mightly suprised if there has not been a Lannister-Targaryen marriage at one point or another in history.

Now what I think might be for a more dramatic effect would be for the Starks and Lannisters to have intermarried at one point or another. But then again its probably kind of expected to have the two of them have some common ancestery due to being enemies now, so that might not be it either.

ive always thought that when beron stark and lord lannister ( possibly damon or tybolt) joined forces to defeat dagon greyjoy that some sort of marriage arangement was made between them for their children

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Someone from Essos or Sothoryos would be surprising. I will not surpise if she/he is from some great/minor house.

[mrunderhill]

Someone from Essos or Sothoryos would be surprising. I will not surpise if she/he is from some great/minor house.

I agree I got a feeling it is going to be a descendant of one of Aegon IV's great bastards.

[Ser Leftwich]

Just noticed in AFfC, a late Jaime chapter, that Tytos, father of Tywin, was the third son. He might not have been raised for leadership, a common theme.

Secondly, he might not have been able to secure the best marriage match, being a third son, depending on when his elder brothers passed away.

[mrunderhill]

Just noticed in AFfC, a late Jaime chapter, that Tytos, father of Tywin, was the third son. He might not have been raised for leadership, a common theme.

Secondly, he might not have been able to secure the best marriage match, being a third son, depending on when his elder brothers passed away.

Yes, but not the best marriage would still hardly be a surprise unless it was really low. All of the Tytos' brood seem to hold their mother in high regard and considering what bigots they are, I don't think she was low born.

[JP Dayne]

Not if it's a recent ancestor to any degree. That would surely have come up in regards to Joff's legitimacy.

i.e Even if he's not a Baratheon he still has Baratheon blood through his great grandfather etc. etc.

you are sick lol

joff'd still be an abomination, the product of incest and adultery :D

but yea, I wasn't talking about recent ancestors, just remembered the book Pycelle showed lord arryn

i'm not sure the main branches intermarried tho, but the evidence is there, so it's not really that huge a surprise :\

[Lord Varys]

Surely, Tytos' wife was not lowborn. But almost certainly not a girl from one of the Great Houses, and Tytos' elder brothers did not die in the cradle or as boys, either. It is said that Tytos' weakness as a lord came from the fact that he felt the need to please his elders (which is why he consented to marry Genna to Walder Frey's second son). He would not have developed that character trait if he had been treated as heir of Casterly Rock from a very early age.

My guess is that Tytos' elder brothers died later in life, perhaps of sickness and/or accidents, and he may have realized that he would end up as Lord of Casterly Rock only when he ended up becoming it. It's not even sure whether one of his brothers preceded him. Think about it, one of his brothers could have been unable to father children of his own.

As to Tytos wife: We don't know anything about her. It is not even sure if her children got to know her very well. Of course, Tywin was her firstborn, so he would have had an impression. But it is easily possible that she died in childbirth, perhaps when Genna or Gerion were born, perhaps after them. She is only mentioned in connection to Tytos' mistress who supposedly wore her jewels and clothes. And this indicates that her children - especially Tywin and Kevan - cared more about the stain of honor on the Lannister name than her mother.

Anyway, if there is a Reyne or Tarbeck in the recent Lannister family tree it could be Tytos' wife or Tytos' mother. In fact, if Tytos was directly related to the Reynes/Tarbecks this would add another layer to his indecisiveness in this affair (especially since Lady Tarbeck apparently was a driving force in the rebellion - she would have been no kin to House Lannister).

[protar]

Surely, Tytos' wife was not lowborn. But almost certainly not a girl from one of the Great Houses, and Tytos' elder brothers did not die in the cradle or as boys, either. It is said that Tytos' weakness as a lord came from the fact that he felt the need to please his elders (which is why he consented to marry Genna to Walder Frey's second son). He would not have developed that character trait if he had been treated as heir of Casterly Rock from a very early age.

My guess is that Tytos' elder brothers died later in life, perhaps of sickness and/or accidents, and he may have realized that he would end up as Lord of Casterly Rock only when he ended up becoming it. It's not even sure whether one of his brothers preceded him. Think about it, one of his brothers could have been unable to father children of his own.

As to Tytos wife: We don't know anything about her. It is not even sure if her children got to know her very well. Of course, Tywin was her firstborn, so he would have had an impression. But it is easily possible that she died in childbirth, perhaps when Genna or Gerion were born, perhaps after them. She is only mentioned in connection to Tytos' mistress who supposedly wore her jewels and clothes. And this indicates that her children - especially Tywin and Kevan - cared more about the stain of honor on the Lannister name than her mother.

Anyway, if there is a Reyne or Tarbeck in the recent Lannister family tree it could be Tytos' wife or Tytos' mother. In fact, if Tytos was directly related to the Reynes/Tarbecks this would add another layer to his indecisiveness in this affair (especially since Lady Tarbeck apparently was a driving force in the rebellion - she would have been no kin to House Lannister).

It would have come up though. Everyone would call Tywin a Kinslayer if his own mother was a Reyne or Tarbeck. That's the thing. Virtually anyone actually important - one of the Great Houses, a commoner, a Reyne or a Tarbeck would have been mentioned by now. It would be poor writing to me if it was one of them and nobody had ever commented on the irony of it in-story. And virtually none of the other houses would be surprising imo.

So by the process of elimination it's either an Essosi, or a really unusual House like a Skaagosi or a Dayne.

[Lord Varys]

Well, somewhere out there are the legal heirs of Tommen/Myrcella and Shireen. But we don't know who they are, either.

Even more so, this whole kinslaying business is much exaggerated. No one calls Robert a kinslayer, for instance, and Rhaegar was his second cousin. And by the way, if Tywin's mother or grandmother was a Reyne/Tarbeck this does not necessarily mean that the Reynes/Tarbecks rebelling against Lord Tywin were close kin to her. She could have been merely a cousin of now ruling branch of the house.

Kinslaying is bad, but it is pretty much justified if the family member you kill has rebelled against you - if you are his lawful liege lord/king - or if he has attacked/killed/threatened other members of your family.

We have no clue what really happened during this rebellion, just as we have only a very blurred image about the events during Robert's Rebellion. The events have not been properly discussed in the books up to this point, and the people thinking about it - especially Cersei - don't remember the story firsthand.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Reyne/Tarbeck ancestry is not surprising. It's the first thing to come mind. :P

[mrunderhill]

Reyne/Tarbeck ancestry is not surprising. It's the first thing to come mind. :P

Reyne ancestry seems very likely. I mentioned before how the Reynes seem to be descendants through a bastard of the Lannister kings. When Tytos made Genna marry a Frey, they were furious. Tywin was not happy to destroy them like he was with the Tarbecks.

From the hints that Ran has given it seems Tywin may have been the boy wonder at the War of the Ninepenny kings. Being a descendant from a Blackfyre will begin to explain a lot. Aerys was scared of Robert, because he was a great military commander, a great warrior and had a good claim to the throne. Yet he was more scared of Tywin.

[Ser Leftwich]

Reyne ancestry seems very likely. I mentioned before how the Reynes seem to be descendants through a bastard of the Lannister kings. When Tytos made Genna marry a Frey, they were furious. Tywin was not happy to destroy them like he was with the Tarbecks.

From the hints that Ran has given it seems Tywin may have been the boy wonder at the War of the Ninepenny kings. Being a descendant from a Blackfyre will begin to explain a lot. Aerys was scared of Robert, because he was a great military commander, a great warrior and had a good claim to the throne. Yet he was more scared of Tywin.

What hints be these? I missed them.

[mrunderhill]

What hints be these? I missed them.

He likes to compare Tywin with Robb and call him a boy wonder. Mentions how he was successful in his wars at the Westerlands and the Ninepenny's at a young age. It seems he did play a part in the War of the Ninepenny's which will later be expanded upon.

[Ser Leftwich]

He likes to compare Tywin with Robb and call him a boy wonder. Mentions how he was successful in his wars at the Westerlands and the Ninepenny's at a young age. It seems he did play a part in the War of the Ninepenny's which will later be expanded upon.

Cheers! :cheers:

[LordBloodraven]

Reyne ancestry seems very likely. I mentioned before how the Reynes seem to be descendants through a bastard of the Lannister kings. When Tytos made Genna marry a Frey, they were furious. Tywin was not happy to destroy them like he was with the Tarbecks.

From the hints that Ran has given it seems Tywin may have been the boy wonder at the War of the Ninepenny kings. Being a descendant from a Blackfyre will begin to explain a lot. Aerys was scared of Robert, because he was a great military commander, a great warrior and had a good claim to the throne. Yet he was more scared of Tywin.

I think he refers more to Tywin's dealing with the Reynes and Tarbecks than any wonders he did during the Ninepenny War. We would have known if Tywin did wonders during that war, but all we know so far is about Barristan and the Blackfish.

I like Lord Varys's theory on the Reyne ancestry of the current Lannisters. It's weird that it wasn't mentioned anywhere before but it would best explain Lord Tytos's indecisiveness towards them

[protar]

I think he refers more to Tywin's dealing with the Reynes and Tarbecks than any wonders he did during the Ninepenny War. We would have known if Tywin did wonders during that war, but all we know so far is about Barristan and the Blackfish.

I like Lord Varys's theory on the Reyne ancestry of the current Lannisters. It's weird that it wasn't mentioned anywhere before but it would best explain Lord Tytos's indecisiveness towards them

Tytos' indecisiveness can be explained by his being an indecisive man. For me it would be poor writing for Martin to just say "oh yeah Tywin's grandma was a Reyne just no one mentioned it", or a Stark or a commoner etc. etc.

So I hope it is something truly surprising and something that would make sense not to mention it.

[mrunderhill]

I think he refers more to Tywin's dealing with the Reynes and Tarbecks than any wonders he did during the Ninepenny War. We would have known if Tywin did wonders during that war, but all we know so far is about Barristan and the Blackfish.

I like Lord Varys's theory on the Reyne ancestry of the current Lannisters. It's weird that it wasn't mentioned anywhere before but it would best explain Lord Tytos's indecisiveness towards them

I don't see why we would know now. We only know about the Blackfish, because of Jaime I think. Tywin did enough, that Aerys thought he would be a good hand at such a young age. I don't see the Lannisters having Reyne ancestors as being surprising after I thought more about it. They were the second most powerful house in the Westerlands. It seems natural they would have married into each other.

[Frey Pie]

I don't see why we would know now. We only know about the Blackfish, because of Jaime I think. Tywin did enough, that Aerys thought he would be a good hand at such a young age. I don't see the Lannisters having Reyne ancestors as being surprising after I thought more about it. They were the second most powerful house in the Westerlands. It seems natural they would have married into each other.

IIRC you are right Jaime has mentioned BF as a hero of the war. Would it not be reasonable to assume there would be a high chance of him also mentioning that his father was the young hero, along with BF? If this was truly where Tywin won his spurs so to speak

According to this http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/274_AL#Year_274_after_Aegon.27s_Landing Tywin would have been 13 during the ninpenny kings, so i would think perhaps he was a squire, and saved his lord or knight

[Veltigar]

Again wouldn't it make more sense if the surprising in "surprising Lannister ancestor" has something to do with the character of said Lannister ancestor instead of the House of which he/she hails from? e.g. maybe King Tommen II (who went out to seek Brightroar) might have been "Rhaegaresk" (you know good at everything but he died pursuing some romantic notion) or he might have been the Lannister equivalent to Walder Frey or something like that.

[LordBloodraven]

I don't see why we would know now. We only know about the Blackfish, because of Jaime I think. Tywin did enough, that Aerys thought he would be a good hand at such a young age. I don't see the Lannisters having Reyne ancestors as being surprising after I thought more about it. They were the second most powerful house in the Westerlands. It seems natural they would have married into each other.

Yes we would know from Jaime or anybody else. Tywin was named Hand because Aerys was impressed with the way he dealt with the Reynes and Tarbecks, not for his glorious feats at the Ninepenny Kings.

I see what you mean with the Reynes. I guess it depends on where you stand and how you define "surprising"